Cessna missing off Byron
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DP,
I don't disagree. But in this instance let's stick to the facts we know.
Speculation doesn't help anyone, specially the family. Maybe we take a break from this thread until we know more facts because to me this could easily just be another unfortunate GA tragedy. Time will tell.
I don't disagree. But in this instance let's stick to the facts we know.
Speculation doesn't help anyone, specially the family. Maybe we take a break from this thread until we know more facts because to me this could easily just be another unfortunate GA tragedy. Time will tell.
Thread Starter
Once Bitten - have you actually read the thread and the various links provided?
For whatever reason, suicide is almost never announced as such by the authorities, it is always "no evidence of foul play", "no involvement by third parties" or "no suspicious circumstances" and as Squawk pointed out, the reference to Lifeline at the end of the press reports is the kicker. These aren't random happenings, the media publish these in response to a specific police briefing. The contents of the telephone call and text messages sent in flight will no doubt come out in the coroner's court, if that's what it is going to take to satisfy you, but until then I suggest you keep juvenile comments about beating off etc to yourself, sweeping this under the rug yet again doesn't help anyone.
For whatever reason, suicide is almost never announced as such by the authorities, it is always "no evidence of foul play", "no involvement by third parties" or "no suspicious circumstances" and as Squawk pointed out, the reference to Lifeline at the end of the press reports is the kicker. These aren't random happenings, the media publish these in response to a specific police briefing. The contents of the telephone call and text messages sent in flight will no doubt come out in the coroner's court, if that's what it is going to take to satisfy you, but until then I suggest you keep juvenile comments about beating off etc to yourself, sweeping this under the rug yet again doesn't help anyone.
I think a major problem affecting the pilot community is a lack of people continuity. Line pilots go to work, they see ground staff on a fleeting basis, they fly with another pilot or crew for a day or a few days. They then go their separate ways and may not see each other for some time. This process is then repeated ad nauseum. As a result, it's highly unlikely that any underlying problems emerge whereas in a 'normal' workplace where colleagues see other other day in and day out, it's easier to spot any difficulties a colleague may be having and address such problems. That mightn't always happen but it's a more probable than with what is essentially a transient workforce. A significant conundrum is how to fix!
Aussie Bob,
You make a dangerous assertion I would suggest.
No one is impervious to persecution and the "workforce consumption" style of management employed by airlines today, the "chin up son" attitude only serves to isolate the individual.
A decade or two of having your profession undermined and devalued by your employer, aided and abetted by the regulator, eats away at you. Especially when your life's work has equipped you with a skill set that no other industry has a need for. Any normal human being will feel helpless at this point.
I don't think for a second that we should hand over sole responsibility for our own happiness to a CEO, CASA or management, but I've seen good people work tirelessly to try and maintain a happy work/life balance only to have these bastards undermine their foundations; and they always have a bigger shovel than you.
Thanks for your candor Bob, but this job is a labyrinth for many, to which there is seemingly no end. What's your solution?
You make a dangerous assertion I would suggest.
No one is impervious to persecution and the "workforce consumption" style of management employed by airlines today, the "chin up son" attitude only serves to isolate the individual.
A decade or two of having your profession undermined and devalued by your employer, aided and abetted by the regulator, eats away at you. Especially when your life's work has equipped you with a skill set that no other industry has a need for. Any normal human being will feel helpless at this point.
I don't think for a second that we should hand over sole responsibility for our own happiness to a CEO, CASA or management, but I've seen good people work tirelessly to try and maintain a happy work/life balance only to have these bastards undermine their foundations; and they always have a bigger shovel than you.
Thanks for your candor Bob, but this job is a labyrinth for many, to which there is seemingly no end. What's your solution?
until then I suggest you keep juvenile comments about beating off etc to yourself, sweeping this under the rug yet again doesn't help anyone.
Thread Starter
Yup evidently, manners and an open mind for starters.
Yep. Four days after the aircraft has gone missing and PPrune has concluded that it was suicide, based on what has been reported by the media.
Well, there you go.
No wonder most of us in the professional aviation community no longer regard PPrune to be anywhere remotely near "professional" anymore.....
Dunda: spot on.
Well, there you go.
No wonder most of us in the professional aviation community no longer regard PPrune to be anywhere remotely near "professional" anymore.....
Dunda: spot on.
For all our shortcomings the PP Brigade didn't call the search off
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My first post for quite some time.
This thread highlights the self interested attitudes prevalent amongst the modern "pilot". Here we have some one who has died, (presumably) and before he is even laid to rest his colleagues have used his misfortune to further their own agendas.
1. To date there is no absolute proof the poor soul involved in this incident was suffering any mental issues, nor that it was a contributing factor in the accident. Browse some of the threads of days gone by and you may see some of the people who accept the media version of events on this occasion, have in the past denegrated the quality of the same media reporting. Hypocrisy at its best. Do you trust the media or don't you? I don't!
2. Whether or not the media reports for the reasons behind the accident are true or false are irrelevant, we should consider the gentlemans family and how they would feel reading this rubbish. As is common in this industry he may well have brothers, uncles, fathers sisters or even his mother currently working in aviation and/or reading prune.
3. There is no proof, not even the slightest indication the gentleman involved had any issues with his employer or the CASA. Taking some ones death to push your own industrial agenda is the lowest of low, if you have done that, I suggest you take a few minutes to review your own attitude and seek some professional advice immediately.
Mental illness is a concern and should be discssed, maybe not under this thread. if your'e genuinely interested a new thread orientated towards that topic may be more prudent.
I started working in the industry in 1976 and I'm glad I'm out. It's not CASA, it's not the management, it's the selfish modern day "look at me" social media mindset displayed by Johnny come lately pilot. Its just too easy to play the internet hero/bully driving your own agenda when really you have nothing anyone wants to hear. Re-read your posts over the last "while" and see how much direct surport you have received. Are you really forwarding your issues successfully?
As for the comment regarding being university educated, I would be interested in hearing from some of the posters educating us on their background, my experience surports the view that most posters probably are university educated.
For the record, I was accepted into an "ancient" version of iniversity (crayons and blackboards), however I chose to be a pilot from a young age, so no shingle to hang over the door.
This thread highlights the self interested attitudes prevalent amongst the modern "pilot". Here we have some one who has died, (presumably) and before he is even laid to rest his colleagues have used his misfortune to further their own agendas.
1. To date there is no absolute proof the poor soul involved in this incident was suffering any mental issues, nor that it was a contributing factor in the accident. Browse some of the threads of days gone by and you may see some of the people who accept the media version of events on this occasion, have in the past denegrated the quality of the same media reporting. Hypocrisy at its best. Do you trust the media or don't you? I don't!
2. Whether or not the media reports for the reasons behind the accident are true or false are irrelevant, we should consider the gentlemans family and how they would feel reading this rubbish. As is common in this industry he may well have brothers, uncles, fathers sisters or even his mother currently working in aviation and/or reading prune.
3. There is no proof, not even the slightest indication the gentleman involved had any issues with his employer or the CASA. Taking some ones death to push your own industrial agenda is the lowest of low, if you have done that, I suggest you take a few minutes to review your own attitude and seek some professional advice immediately.
Mental illness is a concern and should be discssed, maybe not under this thread. if your'e genuinely interested a new thread orientated towards that topic may be more prudent.
I started working in the industry in 1976 and I'm glad I'm out. It's not CASA, it's not the management, it's the selfish modern day "look at me" social media mindset displayed by Johnny come lately pilot. Its just too easy to play the internet hero/bully driving your own agenda when really you have nothing anyone wants to hear. Re-read your posts over the last "while" and see how much direct surport you have received. Are you really forwarding your issues successfully?
As for the comment regarding being university educated, I would be interested in hearing from some of the posters educating us on their background, my experience surports the view that most posters probably are university educated.
For the record, I was accepted into an "ancient" version of iniversity (crayons and blackboards), however I chose to be a pilot from a young age, so no shingle to hang over the door.
Last edited by Capt disillusioned; 26th Mar 2016 at 00:31.
Jumping the gun . . so agreed with apologies on reflection . . . . . the media saying (The Byron Bay ECHO) -that -
" the pilot had been struggling with a broken marriage and rented a plane from a Lismore flying club before making a final phone call to his daughters. He disappeared into the ocean six nautical miles off Byron Bay."
..... may well be at worst a fabrication or superstition from hearsay.
(It will be quite a while before the coroner's conclusion is known about a professional pilot of considerable credibility allegedly being six nms off Byron Bay seas rough and beyond gliding distance from the beach in a single .)
" the pilot had been struggling with a broken marriage and rented a plane from a Lismore flying club before making a final phone call to his daughters. He disappeared into the ocean six nautical miles off Byron Bay."
..... may well be at worst a fabrication or superstition from hearsay.
(It will be quite a while before the coroner's conclusion is known about a professional pilot of considerable credibility allegedly being six nms off Byron Bay seas rough and beyond gliding distance from the beach in a single .)
Whether or not the deceased's demise came about through an ulterior self-destructive motive the fact that people are now thinking more about the alarming extent of mental health problems across the wide brown land cannot be a bad thing. As with the ill-fated Lubitz of Germanwings a year ago, whose action has served as a powerful heads up around the civilised world, regardless of whether the repercussions and proposed remedies are now seen to be in some ways good or in some ways ill-advised and counter-productive, people are looking at the problem in deadly earnest, (you might say). . It certainly bears repeating that we need with great earnestness to heed the inputs to this debate of those wiser heads who have a sound grasp of the problem and are well qualified (not necessarily academically) to give timely advice on the aspects of the problem in most urgent need of attention. ( Those who can see only a need for retribution now or cry murderer could put one in mind of Dicken's appalled description of the slavering howling mobs of men women and children that came to public exhibitions of the executions outside the prisons in London before such spectacles were legislated against in the mid-eighties.)
Last edited by Fantome; 25th Mar 2016 at 20:07.
There's usually a 12 month "waiting period" on the policy.
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..... may well be at worst a fabrication or superstition from hearsay.
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Dear Captain D, with all due respect when this type thing lands in your lap it is hard.
Some deal with it in many different ways, but certain things point in certain directions and they are just "A" fact. Some will say no way- it was the plane until the day they also die. (there is no SMS or phone call saying the plane is Plucca Duck).
When we lost our loved ones a few Easters back - we still guess why "did", not why or how did it happen. We know the cause just not the exact why get there bit.
Some deal with it in many different ways, but certain things point in certain directions and they are just "A" fact. Some will say no way- it was the plane until the day they also die. (there is no SMS or phone call saying the plane is Plucca Duck).
When we lost our loved ones a few Easters back - we still guess why "did", not why or how did it happen. We know the cause just not the exact why get there bit.
PPRuNe Handmaiden
Ultralights Absolutely spot on. In fact, that is the warning sign that the depressed person is about to do something harmful. Note, it is the sudden appearance of happiness.
When someone is suffering from depression, they are usually too fatigued to muster up the energy to finish themselves. It's in the early recovery stages that they are most likely to harm themselves. Why? They are still depressed but now have enough energy to do the task.
One thing that concerns me WRT men and mental health is that they (you?) are expected to be like women. ie chat about your feelings openly and so on. However, you're men, men don't do that. But, men need social contact just like women - but in a different form. In my opinion, I would encourage guys to do bloke stuff together, such as play golf, go riding bikes, fish, whatever. It doesn't matter, what matters is that there's a group or even just one other, that you have regular contact with. This gets you out of the house and away from various pressures of life for an hour or so.
For sure, doing stuff with your wives/girlfriends/families is great and essential, but we're not men and so can't view the world in the same way.
Sorry for the ramble, but I really believe that men need "bloke" time with your mates.
When someone is suffering from depression, they are usually too fatigued to muster up the energy to finish themselves. It's in the early recovery stages that they are most likely to harm themselves. Why? They are still depressed but now have enough energy to do the task.
One thing that concerns me WRT men and mental health is that they (you?) are expected to be like women. ie chat about your feelings openly and so on. However, you're men, men don't do that. But, men need social contact just like women - but in a different form. In my opinion, I would encourage guys to do bloke stuff together, such as play golf, go riding bikes, fish, whatever. It doesn't matter, what matters is that there's a group or even just one other, that you have regular contact with. This gets you out of the house and away from various pressures of life for an hour or so.
For sure, doing stuff with your wives/girlfriends/families is great and essential, but we're not men and so can't view the world in the same way.
Sorry for the ramble, but I really believe that men need "bloke" time with your mates.
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Responding to Blitzk.
Reading your post struck a chord. What you posted clearly delineates current situations and circumstances in a variety of professions. Whether in Australia, America or other countries. There are many of us , pilots, lawyers, physicians, engineers who experience the very grinding, debilitating, debasing changes to our personal and professional lives. For physicians, you could substitute hospital admin instead of carrier for professional pilots. As professionals, we are educated and trained to respect experience, judgement and technical excellence in our quest for professional advancement, recognition and achievement of our potential. The commoditization of each of our respective professions is a truly sobering and disheartening circumstance. It goes against the core of the person who selects a profession, who strives to be the best of the best.
Of course we know little of the gentleman in question. However I think all many have experienced some if not much of his recent issues. One of the other posters mentioned isolation. Experience tells me that when marital discord happens, marital friends can scatter like quail. Personal isolation is real and very debilitating and happens rapidly.
This forum allows professional expression and enlightenment and frankly entertainment on many levels. I would suggest that participation here with like minded professionals, could reduce some of the isolation that he might of felt or at least provide a different perspective to his circumstances
Reading your post struck a chord. What you posted clearly delineates current situations and circumstances in a variety of professions. Whether in Australia, America or other countries. There are many of us , pilots, lawyers, physicians, engineers who experience the very grinding, debilitating, debasing changes to our personal and professional lives. For physicians, you could substitute hospital admin instead of carrier for professional pilots. As professionals, we are educated and trained to respect experience, judgement and technical excellence in our quest for professional advancement, recognition and achievement of our potential. The commoditization of each of our respective professions is a truly sobering and disheartening circumstance. It goes against the core of the person who selects a profession, who strives to be the best of the best.
Of course we know little of the gentleman in question. However I think all many have experienced some if not much of his recent issues. One of the other posters mentioned isolation. Experience tells me that when marital discord happens, marital friends can scatter like quail. Personal isolation is real and very debilitating and happens rapidly.
This forum allows professional expression and enlightenment and frankly entertainment on many levels. I would suggest that participation here with like minded professionals, could reduce some of the isolation that he might of felt or at least provide a different perspective to his circumstances
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Redsnail. Untralights is only right if the person has been showing signs of depression in the first place. If they have had a positive outlook on life for a long time even with life's challenges then that just shows their true nature.
