Williamtown VFR Flight Planning
Thread Starter
Williamtown VFR Flight Planning
Friends of mine who fly up and down the Williamtown coastal lane were informed by the Williamtown people that if they put in a VFR full position flight plan, they would get less delays. In fact, the en route supplement states, “VFR aircraft should submit flight a plan to reduce delays in aircraft process”.
I also note it all so ominously says, “Aircraft require low level transit of Williamtown control and restricted areas, including coastal route may expect delays, restrictions and holding due to traffic management”.
In 1991 under the AMATs changes, I removed the flight planning requirement for VFR aircraft. I noticed it is now coming in again everywhere. In fact, another friend who is heading into Canberra called up for clearance to come inbound and land VFR and it was clear the controllers were not happy that a flight plan had not been filed.
This of course employs more people – and more time in relation to flight planning. Can someone advise how filing a flight plan to fly up the coastal route can reduce delays when normally the delays come from the fact that an IFR aircraft operating into Williamtown may have to do a missed approach and therefore impinge on the 500 foot lane? How could a VFR flight plan change this situation?
By the way, this seems to all be part of a one way ratchet by the Military and CASA to remove the cost saving Reforms that I introduced when we copied the U.S. system and to go back to the system we had in the old days. The mandatory full position system for VFR aircraft costs tens of millions of dollars per year.
I also note it all so ominously says, “Aircraft require low level transit of Williamtown control and restricted areas, including coastal route may expect delays, restrictions and holding due to traffic management”.
In 1991 under the AMATs changes, I removed the flight planning requirement for VFR aircraft. I noticed it is now coming in again everywhere. In fact, another friend who is heading into Canberra called up for clearance to come inbound and land VFR and it was clear the controllers were not happy that a flight plan had not been filed.
This of course employs more people – and more time in relation to flight planning. Can someone advise how filing a flight plan to fly up the coastal route can reduce delays when normally the delays come from the fact that an IFR aircraft operating into Williamtown may have to do a missed approach and therefore impinge on the 500 foot lane? How could a VFR flight plan change this situation?
By the way, this seems to all be part of a one way ratchet by the Military and CASA to remove the cost saving Reforms that I introduced when we copied the U.S. system and to go back to the system we had in the old days. The mandatory full position system for VFR aircraft costs tens of millions of dollars per year.
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I can't answer your question, but I have flown north, then south in the coastal VFR corridor without a flight plan. They asked for it, and asked me to hold south after I said I didn't have one, then gave clearance after about 5 mins. But given you hold >75% of the time anway hard to know if it's related to the presence/absence of a VFR flight plan.
Also recently at Gold Coast when I requested a VFR clearance I was asked if I had a flight plan in the system.
Which makes it, Williamtown, Canberra and now Gold Coast where I have been asked this inane question.
Thankfully I am not intimidated by the radio.
Which makes it, Williamtown, Canberra and now Gold Coast where I have been asked this inane question.
Thankfully I am not intimidated by the radio.
C'mom guys. Australia is not the USA.
In Australia, you are the tail and the government and its agencies are the dog. Private citizens exist to be told by government agencies how to run every aspect of their lives, so as to make life easier for the government agencies. If it's going to make it easier for a government agency if you file a flight plan, it should be mandatory.
Next thing you'll be claiming that your taxes pay for all those RAAFies and their toys at Williamtown.
In Australia, you are the tail and the government and its agencies are the dog. Private citizens exist to be told by government agencies how to run every aspect of their lives, so as to make life easier for the government agencies. If it's going to make it easier for a government agency if you file a flight plan, it should be mandatory.
Next thing you'll be claiming that your taxes pay for all those RAAFies and their toys at Williamtown.
If I remember right, this more stringent flight planning requirement for VFR came in with the upgraded air traffic equipment (TAAATS or whatever it was, could well be wrong here) around 2007 or so perhaps?
Even though the air traffickers themselves were very helpful in general (certainly around Cairns where I was flying), the limitations of their new gear meant that if a flight plan wasn't in the system it made a good deal harder for them to flash up a new one off the cuff on the basis of a radio call.
NOTAMS came out to the effect, and in reality, it is now an absolute piece of piss to put a plan in as long as you have access to a computer or smart phone and are willing to take half an hour to learn how to do it, as it appears many are not (unbelievably), but are happy to whinge and bitch.
I would think we all understand that modern computer automation is great in many ways, but there are also downsides in that the old style human scribbling on an information strip and handing it to a controller is not necessarily possible any more, or at least not easily.
I'm far from surprised your mate who didn't put a flight plan in to fly into Canberra (why? couldn't be stuffed, or didn't know how?) got delayed. It clearly says in the AIP that plans should be submitted, and if you don't, expect delays! It's not bloody rocket science, and fair dinkum, takes literally two minutes on your phone to put a plan in.
If for some pressing genuine reason you can't, then I bet the controllers will do their damnedest to help you out.
Even though the air traffickers themselves were very helpful in general (certainly around Cairns where I was flying), the limitations of their new gear meant that if a flight plan wasn't in the system it made a good deal harder for them to flash up a new one off the cuff on the basis of a radio call.
NOTAMS came out to the effect, and in reality, it is now an absolute piece of piss to put a plan in as long as you have access to a computer or smart phone and are willing to take half an hour to learn how to do it, as it appears many are not (unbelievably), but are happy to whinge and bitch.
I would think we all understand that modern computer automation is great in many ways, but there are also downsides in that the old style human scribbling on an information strip and handing it to a controller is not necessarily possible any more, or at least not easily.
I'm far from surprised your mate who didn't put a flight plan in to fly into Canberra (why? couldn't be stuffed, or didn't know how?) got delayed. It clearly says in the AIP that plans should be submitted, and if you don't, expect delays! It's not bloody rocket science, and fair dinkum, takes literally two minutes on your phone to put a plan in.
If for some pressing genuine reason you can't, then I bet the controllers will do their damnedest to help you out.
Went through Williamtown Airspace a couple of times a few weeks ago, I was VFR, didn't use the VFR corridor because I didn't feel like getting pummeled in the bumpy conditions and had no real problems at all getting a clearance to be honest, could be because I had a Flight Plan in the system, though on one of the times I was way off my originally planned course because of some weather near Coffs but once again, no real issue.
It certainly helped when I needed to divert into Coffs Airspace because of said weather, called up Centre, advised them I was having to divert due weather and needed a clearance, no hassles there either.
I know it can be a pain but I really see no hassle in putting in a quick Flight Plan before you go even if you're not planning on going near Airspace, because if you do it'll make your life a lot easier it seems.
It certainly helped when I needed to divert into Coffs Airspace because of said weather, called up Centre, advised them I was having to divert due weather and needed a clearance, no hassles there either.
I know it can be a pain but I really see no hassle in putting in a quick Flight Plan before you go even if you're not planning on going near Airspace, because if you do it'll make your life a lot easier it seems.
If for some pressing genuine reason you can't, then I bet the controllers will do their damnedest to help you out.
AOTW, not all of us are mobile phone savvy or even own a phone that can do that stuff. Access to a computer while traveling is not always that easy either
Fair enough, I'd hate to see the day when someone who really has no way of getting a plan in is held or refused clearance for no good reason. However, I think it's a bit of an insult to the air traffickers to say that asking if you have a plan in the system is inane.
Like I said, the change came in with the systems upgrade they got some years ago, and while they can of course still handle on the spot requests, it's not expected to be the norm. Anyone who can put a plan in should, because it makes their and our lives easier in the end.
Tech-savviness isn't really that much of an issue - most people would have the internet available somewhere prior to flight and could whack a plan in either via the airservices NAIPS login or a phone app which is really no more difficult than phone banking.
The AIP (itself very easily downloadable off the airservices site if you don't have a hard copy lying around) sets out exactly what all the bits in the plan sections mean, so anyone who spends a little bit of time going through it and having a practice at submitting a plan won't have too many dramas if they were cluey enough to get a licence in the first place.
I would like to stress I don't mean this as a criticism of anyone, and you probably know all this anyway Aussie Bob, but Dick puts it out there as bastard air traffic controllers denying good old pilots a clearance, when really I feel it's a limitation of the system they have to work with, and not too hard for us to learn to plan if we're going into CTA (or near it if that's relevant for transit lanes etc).
Like I said, the change came in with the systems upgrade they got some years ago, and while they can of course still handle on the spot requests, it's not expected to be the norm. Anyone who can put a plan in should, because it makes their and our lives easier in the end.
Tech-savviness isn't really that much of an issue - most people would have the internet available somewhere prior to flight and could whack a plan in either via the airservices NAIPS login or a phone app which is really no more difficult than phone banking.
The AIP (itself very easily downloadable off the airservices site if you don't have a hard copy lying around) sets out exactly what all the bits in the plan sections mean, so anyone who spends a little bit of time going through it and having a practice at submitting a plan won't have too many dramas if they were cluey enough to get a licence in the first place.
I would like to stress I don't mean this as a criticism of anyone, and you probably know all this anyway Aussie Bob, but Dick puts it out there as bastard air traffic controllers denying good old pilots a clearance, when really I feel it's a limitation of the system they have to work with, and not too hard for us to learn to plan if we're going into CTA (or near it if that's relevant for transit lanes etc).
AOTW, not all of us are mobile phone savvy or even own a phone that can do that stuff. Access to a computer while traveling is not always that easy either
From my understanding of ATC actions/processing of popups -
An ATC is providing separation and arranging sequencing to a bunch of aircraft in his/her sector, arranging STARs, coordinating with other sectors etc. etc. and a VFR NOSAR no details calls up seeking a clearance.
Who is the ATC going give priority to attention-wise?
- The ATC will most likely have worked out a sequence for the other aircraft, which the popup may affect;
- The popup's requested track may require coordination with and agreement by a following sector or Tower;
- The ATC will have to enter basic flight details into Eurocat so the popup can be processed and handed off, so some to-ing and fro-ing radio contact will be necessary to obtain these details.
A flight plan already filed in the system eliminates one distracting and time consuming factor, and assists greatly to facilitate a clearance
Inane was probably a bit rich, but they know I have no plan in the system, otherwise they would not need to ask 
Captain Midnight, well said however ... VFR is at the bottom end of the pecking order anyway and my plan, lodged at 8 AM is unlikely to reflect an accurate arrival time come late afternoon anyway. Struth, I have stopped for fuel, stopped for lunch and generally been, to put it bluntly, a dawdling VFR pilot, in no particular hurry to arrive anywhere. So without an accurate arrival time how can they plan to sequence me anyway? I am always happy to orbit, drop below the steps, go in via a different point or whatever, so why is the plan such a help?
Captain Midnight, well said however ... VFR is at the bottom end of the pecking order anyway and my plan, lodged at 8 AM is unlikely to reflect an accurate arrival time come late afternoon anyway. Struth, I have stopped for fuel, stopped for lunch and generally been, to put it bluntly, a dawdling VFR pilot, in no particular hurry to arrive anywhere. So without an accurate arrival time how can they plan to sequence me anyway? I am always happy to orbit, drop below the steps, go in via a different point or whatever, so why is the plan such a help?
I'd like to begin with I do not have drive TAAATS but from what I recall of seeing it in action, there is a minimum amount of data that needs to be inputted for the system to accept a plan.
It can be done on the run, providing the controller can gather all the required details and guesstimate some of the others (I think a TAS or similar is one of the required fields). That probably takes 30 seconds to a minute to do assuming you aren't distracted by anything else.
Having a plan in the system, even if it does not have an accurate time in it, allows the controller to pull up your details simply by putting in the callsign. From there it can be manipulated a bit easier.
So a plan will save a bit of backwards and forwards ascertaining details to drive the system. It'd be similar to me suddenly clearing you for an IAL and you don't have your charts out. Sure you can do it, but you need a minute or 2 to get yourself sorted.
It can be done on the run, providing the controller can gather all the required details and guesstimate some of the others (I think a TAS or similar is one of the required fields). That probably takes 30 seconds to a minute to do assuming you aren't distracted by anything else.
Having a plan in the system, even if it does not have an accurate time in it, allows the controller to pull up your details simply by putting in the callsign. From there it can be manipulated a bit easier.
So a plan will save a bit of backwards and forwards ascertaining details to drive the system. It'd be similar to me suddenly clearing you for an IAL and you don't have your charts out. Sure you can do it, but you need a minute or 2 to get yourself sorted.
You'd be sequenced or processed by ATC based on when you call up seeking clearance, not based on times in your flight plan.
From my understanding of things, a flight plan in the system with a half reasonable ETD from the last point of departure will assist.
Whether or not the ATC flight data processor puts your flight plan into a "pre-active" alert state to the relevant sector based on the ETD I don't know, but in any case having the flight plan in the system means it will at least be there able to be called up by the ATC, instead of them having to drop everything else and obtain and key in the details (feed the beast).
From my understanding of things, a flight plan in the system with a half reasonable ETD from the last point of departure will assist.
Whether or not the ATC flight data processor puts your flight plan into a "pre-active" alert state to the relevant sector based on the ETD I don't know, but in any case having the flight plan in the system means it will at least be there able to be called up by the ATC, instead of them having to drop everything else and obtain and key in the details (feed the beast).
Last edited by CaptainMidnight; 24th Feb 2016 at 03:26. Reason: Edit: what he said ......
If I remember right, this more stringent flight planning requirement for VFR came in with the upgraded air traffic equipment (TAAATS or whatever it was, could well be wrong here) around 2007 or so perhaps?
Even though the air traffickers themselves were very helpful in general (certainly around Cairns where I was flying), the limitations of their new gear meant that if a flight plan wasn't in the system it made a good deal harder for them to flash up a new one off the cuff on the basis of a radio call.
Even though the air traffickers themselves were very helpful in general (certainly around Cairns where I was flying), the limitations of their new gear meant that if a flight plan wasn't in the system it made a good deal harder for them to flash up a new one off the cuff on the basis of a radio call.
Certainly there was a time when you could call up Clearance Delivery at Townsville, give a few details, and get a VFR clearance to transit, exit or enter the zone - with minimal delay.
Some time later (years?) such a request was answered with "Do you have details in the system"? If not there would be a delay while they put enough details in the system for it to work. In the last few years the delays seem to have been getting longer and I suspect many, like me on the rare occassions when I want to fly VFR, have reverted to submitting a plan for a VFR flights that need a clearance.
Dr
Bob, in TAAATS VFR plans often aren't routinely displayed by the system because there's every chance you won't require a service. I work en-route and if you call up requesting a clearance into TMA airspace I can look up your plan and activate it if I find one.
If I don't find one it could be because it's timed out as you left late and enjoyed a long lunch or you're early. These can be retrieved, but there's no point in looking if you never filed in the first place, hence the question.
Back in the good ol' days if there was no plan all I had to do was grab a paper strip, write a callsign, level and basic tracking details and we were good to go. These days I have to open the flight plan window, type in your callsign, aircraft type (correct ICAO code), departure point, destination, tracking points (all correct codes), level, IFR or VFR and aircraft rego (even if it's the same as your callsign). Then I have to activate the flight plan by putting in a reasonable departure time so that the flight plan track is near enough to where you currently are so the system automatically couples the plan to your transponder code.
None of which is terribly difficult but it takes time and when you're busy it might take several minutes and when you're separating aircraft this can be a distraction. We don't have assistants like they do in many other countries.
It's nothing to do with doing things a uniquely Australian way and all to do with the tools we're using. Help us feed the elephant on your behalf.
If I don't find one it could be because it's timed out as you left late and enjoyed a long lunch or you're early. These can be retrieved, but there's no point in looking if you never filed in the first place, hence the question.
Back in the good ol' days if there was no plan all I had to do was grab a paper strip, write a callsign, level and basic tracking details and we were good to go. These days I have to open the flight plan window, type in your callsign, aircraft type (correct ICAO code), departure point, destination, tracking points (all correct codes), level, IFR or VFR and aircraft rego (even if it's the same as your callsign). Then I have to activate the flight plan by putting in a reasonable departure time so that the flight plan track is near enough to where you currently are so the system automatically couples the plan to your transponder code.
None of which is terribly difficult but it takes time and when you're busy it might take several minutes and when you're separating aircraft this can be a distraction. We don't have assistants like they do in many other countries.
It's nothing to do with doing things a uniquely Australian way and all to do with the tools we're using. Help us feed the elephant on your behalf.
Thread Starter
Yes it is about doing things in an uniquely Australian way. Have you ever thought of asking FAA controllers how they handle VFR flights? I bet not as we know it all here!
Normally an inbound VFR aircraft goes directly to tower airspace and is handled in a totally professional way.
In Aus often the pilot is forced to first call approach so lots of work can be created. Happened to me last time I wanted to call into Gold Coast at the last minute for a bit of extra fuel in the Longranger . They insisted I call approach first after I called the tower and then approach wanted to know if I had put in a flight plan. They then offered to put in the flight plan for me which I accepted. Clearly a 1930s system.
It's called " make jobs" airspace. To operate class C airspace professionally and efficiently the tower airspace needs to go out to the first control zone step at ground level.- as it does in most other countries in the world. I only got this in at Canberra and Cape Banks at Sydney.
Normally an inbound VFR aircraft goes directly to tower airspace and is handled in a totally professional way.
In Aus often the pilot is forced to first call approach so lots of work can be created. Happened to me last time I wanted to call into Gold Coast at the last minute for a bit of extra fuel in the Longranger . They insisted I call approach first after I called the tower and then approach wanted to know if I had put in a flight plan. They then offered to put in the flight plan for me which I accepted. Clearly a 1930s system.
It's called " make jobs" airspace. To operate class C airspace professionally and efficiently the tower airspace needs to go out to the first control zone step at ground level.- as it does in most other countries in the world. I only got this in at Canberra and Cape Banks at Sydney.
Dick,
The other big difference in the USA is that a vfr flight doesn't require a clearance to enter class c it just needs to be in radio contact with ATC and have a transponder(or an exemption). You can't disobey an ATC instruction but you don't need their permission either. The best way to think of the US Clsss c is as Class d with radar.
Sometimes transiting some of the smaller Class C airports in the USA you call up approach and state you type, callsign location and destination and the response you get back is just an acknowledgement, perhaps a transponder code perhaps not but basically their controlled airspace is very permeable to small aircraft.
When they do put a plan in the system over there they really only put in the minimum information and so it is quick over the radio.
No_one
The other big difference in the USA is that a vfr flight doesn't require a clearance to enter class c it just needs to be in radio contact with ATC and have a transponder(or an exemption). You can't disobey an ATC instruction but you don't need their permission either. The best way to think of the US Clsss c is as Class d with radar.
Sometimes transiting some of the smaller Class C airports in the USA you call up approach and state you type, callsign location and destination and the response you get back is just an acknowledgement, perhaps a transponder code perhaps not but basically their controlled airspace is very permeable to small aircraft.
When they do put a plan in the system over there they really only put in the minimum information and so it is quick over the radio.
No_one
Sounds extraordinarily dangerous. Lucky they don't have much traffic over there.
"xxx tower, this is aussie bob inbound with details"
"xxx tower, go ahead aussie bob"
"aussie bob, a VFR BL8, approaching (insert VFR waypoint here) at 2500, yours at (time), received atis, request airways clearance"
They must be guessing some of this stuff, I have never been asked it. What relevance is it anyway? Never have i been asked where I am coming from, my destination is obvious, and I have just provided tracking details.
Now I am not shooting the messenger, and I thank you le Pingouin for your detailed response but isn't the system a bit broke if this is a hassle? I perfectly understand if a clearance takes a bit of time and I am told to remain OCTA. I am not being rude here either, but isn't this a part of what you get paid for?
More than happy to put in a plan if my intent was always to end up at xxx, but this isn't always the case.
I see a bit of thread drift here, but this could well be Williamtown and the clearance request could be changed to "request transit clearance via Nobbies or whatever".
"xxx tower, go ahead aussie bob"
"aussie bob, a VFR BL8, approaching (insert VFR waypoint here) at 2500, yours at (time), received atis, request airways clearance"
These days I have to open the flight plan window, type in your callsign, aircraft type (correct ICAO code), departure point, destination, tracking points (all correct codes), level, IFR or VFR and aircraft rego (even if it's the same as your callsign).
Now I am not shooting the messenger, and I thank you le Pingouin for your detailed response but isn't the system a bit broke if this is a hassle? I perfectly understand if a clearance takes a bit of time and I am told to remain OCTA. I am not being rude here either, but isn't this a part of what you get paid for?
More than happy to put in a plan if my intent was always to end up at xxx, but this isn't always the case.
I see a bit of thread drift here, but this could well be Williamtown and the clearance request could be changed to "request transit clearance via Nobbies or whatever".