Steam Gauges Are Safer..?
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Steam Gauges Are Safer..?
From Avweb - "Steam Gauges Are Safer"......
What do you think?
Steam Gauges Are Safer - AVweb Features Article
Cheers
What do you think?
Steam Gauges Are Safer - AVweb Features Article
Cheers
Folks,
If you read the articles, and others in a similar vein, it is not the bare "gauges" are the problem, but the much greater level of data available, to distract a pilot from:
From the time we (in airlines) got the first "electric" aeroplanes (B767 and the like) 30+ years ago, it rapidly became apparent that "all the bells and whistles" were very seductive, and it was all too easy to be distracted from the efficient operation of the aeroplane.
The border between "need to know" and "nice (maybe) to know" became very blurred, and as many of us know, it was often quite difficult to keep the "keyboard jockeys", the "children of the magenta line" hands off the keyboards in critical phases of flight. Do you really need an "extended centre line" entered by the keyboard, to turn onto final on a visual approach??
Also the propensity to forget Rule(1) of the "Computer Age",---- bullsh1t in, bullsh1t out.
This all happened in the relatively disciplines training and checking environment of airlines, is the GA record so surprising? In my view, first expressed in writing in the mid-1990s, it was all predictable.
There is now quite a lot of study on this subject, information overload is real, the airborne solution can all be boiled down (and this is not an oversimplification) to "Keep it simple, stupid".
Tootle pip!!
If you read the articles, and others in a similar vein, it is not the bare "gauges" are the problem, but the much greater level of data available, to distract a pilot from:
Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.
The border between "need to know" and "nice (maybe) to know" became very blurred, and as many of us know, it was often quite difficult to keep the "keyboard jockeys", the "children of the magenta line" hands off the keyboards in critical phases of flight. Do you really need an "extended centre line" entered by the keyboard, to turn onto final on a visual approach??
Also the propensity to forget Rule(1) of the "Computer Age",---- bullsh1t in, bullsh1t out.
This all happened in the relatively disciplines training and checking environment of airlines, is the GA record so surprising? In my view, first expressed in writing in the mid-1990s, it was all predictable.
There is now quite a lot of study on this subject, information overload is real, the airborne solution can all be boiled down (and this is not an oversimplification) to "Keep it simple, stupid".
Tootle pip!!
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The style of gauges has very little to do with it. The problem has always, and will continue to be, the squishy bit gripping the stick...
Simplified, I know, but still accurate.
Simplified, I know, but still accurate.
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Personally, I never liked the tape airspeed indicator on the 777. The tape altimeter I could live with as it seemed somewhat more intuitive than a round dial, clock type, altimeter.
Give me back the big, round dial, airspeed indicator of the 757/767 where I could tell at a quick glance of the needle position what my general energy state was. The 777 airspeed tape mimics the presentation of a whiskey compass for the sake of compactness on the glass PFD and was a big setback to situational awareness in my meager mind.
BTW, Boeing, put back the ball, slip indicator, while you're at it!!
Give me back the big, round dial, airspeed indicator of the 757/767 where I could tell at a quick glance of the needle position what my general energy state was. The 777 airspeed tape mimics the presentation of a whiskey compass for the sake of compactness on the glass PFD and was a big setback to situational awareness in my meager mind.
BTW, Boeing, put back the ball, slip indicator, while you're at it!!
Last edited by wanabee777; 17th Feb 2016 at 15:37.
...err, doesn't the 777 Flight Display already have a slip indicator?
Give me back the big, round dial, airspeed indicator of the 757/767 where I could tell at a quick glance of the needle position what my general energy state was
I saw my first `drum` airspeed tape when someone in the early 1950's gave me a landing in an RAAF C130A. The ASI drum was bouncing about in turbulence - or should I say, rapidly revolving this way and that. I gained an instinctive dislike of the instrument design. Looking back, it may have been because of my personal difficulty with momentary loss of concentration as to whether the damned thing was showing me a loss or gain of airspeed depending on its direction of rotation.
Fast forward to another era. With the introduction of the Boeing 737 glass cockpit series, a European or American airline decided to go for the option of having a full round dial classic `steam driven` flight instrument display on its 737 glass cockpit - including the ubiquitous Turn and Slip indicator. Perhaps their Operations Management could foresee the now well known syndrome of Children of the Magenta Line and its close relative, Automation Addiction.
Last edited by Centaurus; 13th Feb 2016 at 05:32.
I too find the speed tapes to be much more difficult to read quickly than a standard ASI. I have a feeling it's because in my brain on the old style I'm not actually reading 100kts per se, I am reading the hand at the 3 o'clock position and knowing what that means in terms of my energy state and any limitations. In addition I can quickly see how far that is from the stall (end of the white arc) or whatever it is I'm trying to get my speed to or keep it away from.
In the multiple aircraft that I fly that have "glass" in front, I always seem to glance across or down at the steam driven ASI for takeoff and landing. I trust the glass but after years it still doesn't feel natural to look at it. Must be a slow learner.
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Sikorsky Helicopters fitted speed tape type displays on the S-76C+. Having flown for many years on proper instruments I found great difficulty in using them. Assessment of IAS trend was particularly difficult; the display was tiny and to me, illogical. I was much relieved that they saw sense and went back to "round gauges" on later aircraft, albeit on flat screen glass displays rather than separate gauges.
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It does, but, again in my meager mind, it was not as intuitive to me as simply "stepping on the ball". Especially, when I needed it the most, during V1 cuts.
But hey, I'm old and not easily trained.
But hey, I'm old and not easily trained.
Last edited by wanabee777; 13th Feb 2016 at 14:28.
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I jump regularly from 6 pack to Garmin glass, and absolutely love the glass. Workload plummets, enjoyment goes up, and I find everything is very intuitive...
The IAS tape is very well set out (on the G500 for my mind) and I get so much more useful, timely and easily assimilated information from it that it's backup in the corner. The 'black box' confusion, I think, comes from over thinking it. Just because it displays red X's over it, doesn't mean it's failed, you should just be going through your IA's like you would anything else. The black box can't make your bricks (indication) without clay (air data). It's just if the weak link in the left hand seat is competent, current and familiar with their equipment, failures should be treated like any other system failure.
The IAS tape is very well set out (on the G500 for my mind) and I get so much more useful, timely and easily assimilated information from it that it's backup in the corner. The 'black box' confusion, I think, comes from over thinking it. Just because it displays red X's over it, doesn't mean it's failed, you should just be going through your IA's like you would anything else. The black box can't make your bricks (indication) without clay (air data). It's just if the weak link in the left hand seat is competent, current and familiar with their equipment, failures should be treated like any other system failure.
Without wanting to categorise, I see a distinctly different response from those, with, ahem, more "years under their belt" vs those closer to my vintage. Personally, I have no problems with the standard glass setup, but I guess it's what you're used to or, perhaps more accurately, what you cut your teeth on...
Nah, actually, I've thought about it more - I did "cut my teeth" on steam gauges, but I find glass superior in every way and have no difficulty with the tapes (airspeed or altitude).
Probably tricky for those who couldn't prgramme a VCR...
Nah, actually, I've thought about it more - I did "cut my teeth" on steam gauges, but I find glass superior in every way and have no difficulty with the tapes (airspeed or altitude).
Probably tricky for those who couldn't prgramme a VCR...
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There was a short period of time here in the US that digital, tape like, speed indicators were used in automobiles.
Apparently, they were not well accepted by the general public and auto manufacturers went back to the analog style speed presentation on the dashboard.
Over here, the 60 mph tick is, generally, with the needle at the 12 o'clock position.
When not using cruise control, for me, it's much easier to drive with only having to make quick glances at needle position while not being concerned with focusing on the actual digits.
But, again, I'm old and have to let my wife do the programming of our TIVO,
Apparently, they were not well accepted by the general public and auto manufacturers went back to the analog style speed presentation on the dashboard.
Over here, the 60 mph tick is, generally, with the needle at the 12 o'clock position.
When not using cruise control, for me, it's much easier to drive with only having to make quick glances at needle position while not being concerned with focusing on the actual digits.
But, again, I'm old and have to let my wife do the programming of our TIVO,
In essence, it all comes down to training. Those who are proficient on one, but not the other, dislike and disparage the other.
I grew up on steam, got taught ifr on old challenging approaches on steam driven partial panel. I also got taught glass by some very capable blokes who I hold in very high regard. It actually doesn't matter what you got taught on- all that matters is that those who have never driven the other should be taught the other!
I love glass and the information that it gives me without thinking, but crikey I love working out angles every now and then and hitting it spot on with Ye olde dials and gauges.
I grew up on steam, got taught ifr on old challenging approaches on steam driven partial panel. I also got taught glass by some very capable blokes who I hold in very high regard. It actually doesn't matter what you got taught on- all that matters is that those who have never driven the other should be taught the other!
I love glass and the information that it gives me without thinking, but crikey I love working out angles every now and then and hitting it spot on with Ye olde dials and gauges.
Folks,
So, some of you don't like some versions of IAS (or in many "glass" with an ADC, CAS) presentations.
This thread started with the clear trend in air safety outcomes in "modern" cockpits, and why. Could we get back to the original intent of the thread, please.
Tootle pip!!
So, some of you don't like some versions of IAS (or in many "glass" with an ADC, CAS) presentations.
This thread started with the clear trend in air safety outcomes in "modern" cockpits, and why. Could we get back to the original intent of the thread, please.
Tootle pip!!
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This is ridiculous..I've just gone back to flying a mechanical gauge b200 as well as a proline 21 equipped aircraft and I have a g1000 rating. The old shambles panel is an ergonomic nightmare, the new integrated systems are so great for situational awareness..who cares about scan!? Ridiculous article
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Leadsled,
I'd say all the contributions so far are in keeping with the intent of the original post. Difficulty in pilot interpretation of relevant and essential information reduces safety, whatever the reason.
I'd say all the contributions so far are in keeping with the intent of the original post. Difficulty in pilot interpretation of relevant and essential information reduces safety, whatever the reason.
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Dear Capn Bloggs,
You've been on the glass for a while now. What do you think of glass cockpit instrumentation (e.g tapes for airspeed and altitude, tiny VSI), in regard to whether they make for safer flight than the older, round gauges?
You've been on the glass for a while now. What do you think of glass cockpit instrumentation (e.g tapes for airspeed and altitude, tiny VSI), in regard to whether they make for safer flight than the older, round gauges?
Not sure if it's primeval or what but the glass v dial argument was brought home to me when someone pointed out that if you take a quick momentary glance at an old style watch there is no though process but the time registers instantly in your brain. However, try that with a digital watch and it doesn't work - you've got to consciously read and digest it.
I really miss my big VS needle - i.e. not the 0.1cm long modern version of it. Set the VS, set the power .... and relax you're done !
I really miss my big VS needle - i.e. not the 0.1cm long modern version of it. Set the VS, set the power .... and relax you're done !