Tracking lost aircraft
Thread Starter
Tracking lost aircraft
Time and time again we see aircraft go missing. It takes days to find them and costs a fortune. (Recent Jabiru in QLD + the missing Dragon + MH370 to name a few). Even if they have an ELT fitted it probably doesn't go off and it they have a portable ELT it often doesn't get activated manually.
Does anyone know much about the bandwidth of the Cospas-Sarsat (ELT satellite receiver network) has to handle a significant number of devices at once? Does it track movement over time bread-crumb style?
All I'm thinking is if an ELT-style device was in your aircraft and powered by 12/14 volt to aircraft power, cigarette lighter etc, it would transmit full time. Once aircraft power is lost, an internal battery could continue to run the device for a few days before going flat.
I know that Spot Trackers are capable of doing this, but that's in the hands of a private provider, plus has a subscription service and I recall reading that someone once pressed their emergency button and nobody at spot did anything for a couple of days if at all, until they were contacted about the missing aircraft.
The ELT device could also have an emergency button on it that activates an alarm.
What am I missing here? Cost to the end-user should not be significant. Users may not like to be tracked 24x7? ADSB in theory does the almost the same thing?
The key to the whole thing seems to be keeping the signal active in a crash (battery life) OR knowing where the aircraft was PRIOR to the crash (bread crumb)... and it needs to be government operated and not in private hands.
Thoughts?
Does anyone know much about the bandwidth of the Cospas-Sarsat (ELT satellite receiver network) has to handle a significant number of devices at once? Does it track movement over time bread-crumb style?
All I'm thinking is if an ELT-style device was in your aircraft and powered by 12/14 volt to aircraft power, cigarette lighter etc, it would transmit full time. Once aircraft power is lost, an internal battery could continue to run the device for a few days before going flat.
I know that Spot Trackers are capable of doing this, but that's in the hands of a private provider, plus has a subscription service and I recall reading that someone once pressed their emergency button and nobody at spot did anything for a couple of days if at all, until they were contacted about the missing aircraft.
The ELT device could also have an emergency button on it that activates an alarm.
What am I missing here? Cost to the end-user should not be significant. Users may not like to be tracked 24x7? ADSB in theory does the almost the same thing?
The key to the whole thing seems to be keeping the signal active in a crash (battery life) OR knowing where the aircraft was PRIOR to the crash (bread crumb)... and it needs to be government operated and not in private hands.
Thoughts?
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Spider Track , V2 Tracker , Spot are all available. Are you suggesting CASA mandate something similar?. Given the Bask lash for cost and effectiveness here alone for ADSB. I don't think people would be happy to spring for a new system. Especially since 'it would never happen to them'
You mean something like Spidertracks!
Spidertracks
Is cost effective if you can dump the unreliable and ineffective ELT.
Spidertracks
Is cost effective if you can dump the unreliable and ineffective ELT.
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Here's an idea from out-of-the-box.
Quite simply, would funding the fitting and installation of these devices SAVE money on SAR costs?
i.e. What amount of money could have been saved in SAR operations if the exact location or (within last 5-10 min location) was known?
Would the installation into every seaworthy boat and aircraft Australia-wide, plus a purchase of a large "block" of location packets from the LEO satellite providers pay for itself?
Quite simply, would funding the fitting and installation of these devices SAVE money on SAR costs?
i.e. What amount of money could have been saved in SAR operations if the exact location or (within last 5-10 min location) was known?
Would the installation into every seaworthy boat and aircraft Australia-wide, plus a purchase of a large "block" of location packets from the LEO satellite providers pay for itself?
Thread Starter
Is cost effective if you can dump the unreliable and ineffective ELT.
You should be able to have one OR the other perhaps.
Quite simply, would funding the fitting and installation of these devices SAVE money on SAR costs?
i.e. What amount of money could have been saved in SAR operations if the exact location or (within last 5-10 min location) was known?
Would the installation into every seaworthy boat and aircraft Australia-wide, plus a purchase of a large "block" of location packets from the LEO satellite providers pay for itself?
i.e. What amount of money could have been saved in SAR operations if the exact location or (within last 5-10 min location) was known?
Would the installation into every seaworthy boat and aircraft Australia-wide, plus a purchase of a large "block" of location packets from the LEO satellite providers pay for itself?
would funding the fitting and installation of these devices SAVE money on SAR costs?
Put into perspective, for $3,000,000 the entire Australian fleet could be fitted with one and how much has Australia just spent on the MH370 search???? $100,000,000... +
Quite simply, would funding the fitting and installation of these devices SAVE money on SAR costs?
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As Squawk implies, some form of automated tracking for airline ops is a no-brainer in the 21st century and there are a number of solutions which would work well enough given the modest data transfer rates involved. For private operations, my own preference is for an on-demand system, simply because I'm old-fashioned enough to think my private flight details should not be routinely available to all and sundry, mandatory IFR ADSB upgrades notwithstanding.
I also believe that some of the criticism of fixed ELTs is misplaced. Having looked a a few GA installations prior to upgrading to a modest 406 MHz ELT system, I noted that some failed elementary radio engineering common sense criteria: simple things like lengths of antenna cable and position of strain loops. I'd also comment that the construction quality of some of the TSO'd ELTs and the readily available EPIRBs I've examined would make me very wary of entering into any religious argument about which is the superior solution. I was quite happy to spend a few hundred dollars on the aircraft ELT and to buy an additional EPIRB for general recreational use, including longer trips in the aircraft. Even then I don't fool myself that there's a 100% probabilty of successful transmission on the basis of either g-switch or human activation.
I also believe that some of the criticism of fixed ELTs is misplaced. Having looked a a few GA installations prior to upgrading to a modest 406 MHz ELT system, I noted that some failed elementary radio engineering common sense criteria: simple things like lengths of antenna cable and position of strain loops. I'd also comment that the construction quality of some of the TSO'd ELTs and the readily available EPIRBs I've examined would make me very wary of entering into any religious argument about which is the superior solution. I was quite happy to spend a few hundred dollars on the aircraft ELT and to buy an additional EPIRB for general recreational use, including longer trips in the aircraft. Even then I don't fool myself that there's a 100% probabilty of successful transmission on the basis of either g-switch or human activation.
Thread Starter
Regardless of the type of system, the answer is in the breadcrumb trail.
Unfortunately Squawk I have to disagree with you for simple financial reasons. If CASA were to mandate something like this, then some bastard in Macquarie Bank will use it as a licence to print money at the expense of the aviation community.
Spot, etc. are subscription services the tracker thingie just beams its signal to a satellite where the owners of the system have a transponder account and the message is downlinked to Spot Inc. you get access to the data via their website.
By the time CASA came up with a specification for a system it would be:
(a) Completely at variance with todays commercially available solutions - designed for "Australian Conditions" so that someone in CASA can write their masters about its unique design. Needless to say, unsaleable too the rest of the world.
(b) Massively over engineered even by European standards. ETSO'd etc.
(c Supported by draconian regulation with respect to fitment, modifications and of course onerous operational and maintenance conditions, perhaps forbidding flight at all if the system is inoperative and requiring maintenance by a certified facility conveniently located in Alice Springs.
(d) Managed by a subscriber organisation whose idea is to suck the life out of a captive base of customers.
In other words, a complete cluster****.
Spot, etc. are subscription services the tracker thingie just beams its signal to a satellite where the owners of the system have a transponder account and the message is downlinked to Spot Inc. you get access to the data via their website.
By the time CASA came up with a specification for a system it would be:
(a) Completely at variance with todays commercially available solutions - designed for "Australian Conditions" so that someone in CASA can write their masters about its unique design. Needless to say, unsaleable too the rest of the world.
(b) Massively over engineered even by European standards. ETSO'd etc.
(c Supported by draconian regulation with respect to fitment, modifications and of course onerous operational and maintenance conditions, perhaps forbidding flight at all if the system is inoperative and requiring maintenance by a certified facility conveniently located in Alice Springs.
(d) Managed by a subscriber organisation whose idea is to suck the life out of a captive base of customers.
In other words, a complete cluster****.
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While we're at it - a dual device that is both ADSB-Out and pings a satellite every 5-10 mins, only broadcasts when "vehicle" is in motion. Basically an "add-on" to existing devices likes SpiderTracks.
Surely these devices shouldn't cost the earth?
Devices like the SpiderTracks S6 looks they have some nice "altitude events".
For example, when coupled with a flight plan, a SAR alert can be automatically triggered if not at destination aerodrome, not at a known airstrip etc. This could be triggered through an escalating set of SMS messages. An initial message, of the form:
Surely these devices shouldn't cost the earth?
Devices like the SpiderTracks S6 looks they have some nice "altitude events".
For example, when coupled with a flight plan, a SAR alert can be automatically triggered if not at destination aerodrome, not at a known airstrip etc. This could be triggered through an escalating set of SMS messages. An initial message, of the form:
An aircraft you are responsible for, VH-XXX, appears to have stopped moving at a location other than its flight plan, that is not a known ALA. ATC did not receive any flight plan amendments that would indicate any deviation from the flight plan to its intended destination XXXXX. Please reply with "ACK" to acknowledge receipt of this message and indicate you are taking responsibility for contacting the pilot. Reply with "ALERT" if you are unable to immediately contact the pilot within the next 5 minutes. Reply with "SOS" if you wish to initiate Search-and-Rescue services." Reply with "ALLOK" if you have confirmation that VH-XXX is safe and does not require SAR services. Further information: http://go.to/FlightAlert813772
For someone like ASA, develop it for Australian-use, but also license it for overseas use. Australia could provide it "free of charge, for a given period (say 5-10 years)" to developing nations that can't afford to do this themselves.
Absolute:
You obviously have no idea of the history of Australian designed aviation technology. Such an attempt as you suggest would end in tears after a very large sum of taxpayers and aviators money had been spent.
For someone like ASA, develop it for Australian-use, but also license it for overseas use. Australia could provide it "free of charge, for a given period (say 5-10 years)" to developing nations that can't afford to do this themselves.
Spider Tracks or something similar is the way to go. ELTs are unreliable. Having seen how Spider Tracks works in real life when the ELT failed to work after a fatal accident convinced me. The owner knew the aircraft crashed within about 5 minutes of the accident happening and where. Didn't save any lives as they were all dead, but it did provide valuable information to where the crash site was.
If I was going to purchase an aircraft, this would be a must fit piece of equipment that I would fit. Aircraft can be monitored from a mobile phone through an APP.
If I was going to purchase an aircraft, this would be a must fit piece of equipment that I would fit. Aircraft can be monitored from a mobile phone through an APP.
Thread Starter
Absolute Focker, that's a great idea. Satellite enable an ADSB unit that *everyone* has to buy anyway. I guess the sticking point is the subscription and or satellite packets.
Come on you guys, we don't need anything more than what we have. Once every decade or so something (usually private with 1 POB) disappears that takes a bit of finding and you guys think we need to reinvent the wheel.
Cars and drivers go missing and none of you say anything.
Fit your spider thingy, whatever, just don't think about forcing it onto others.
Cars and drivers go missing and none of you say anything.
Fit your spider thingy, whatever, just don't think about forcing it onto others.
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. Satellite enable an ADSB unit that *everyone* has to buy anyway. I guess the sticking point is the subscription and or satellite packets.
ADSB broadcasts via the Transponder Antenna on a extended squitter. It only grabs the GPS information for use in its broadcast. In short terms it cant talk to the Satellites and it is mounted to the bottom of the aircraft (no Sky).
Air Services could log any ADSB broadcasts just as Flightaware. This would be more helpful than some of the ELT's. If a aircraft goes into the water it is useless as water attenuates the signal. In fact most serious GA accident wrecks I have seen have had damaged ELT antennas.
tecman : simple things like lengths of antenna cable and position of strain loops
Aussie Bob : Fit your spider thingy, whatever, just don't think about forcing it onto others.
I believe a Tracker OR ELT would be a great idea. But agreeing on specs would be the nightmare
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Current technologies e.g. Spot and likely future technologies allow tracks to be viewed on a web page.
One option would be to allow you to register a web URL for your aircraft for whatever tracking device you had. AMSA could protect it so they could only access it after a SAR phase had formally been declared.
Allowing the URL to be submitted with a SARTIME would also be a good idea. (Actually, I have wondered whether you could put a URL in the Remarks field.)
This would have minimal cost and allow the user to choose the technology they use. A spot tracker costs a couple of hundred dollars, plus a couple of hundred US per year for a plan that tracks automatically when the device is moving.
One option would be to allow you to register a web URL for your aircraft for whatever tracking device you had. AMSA could protect it so they could only access it after a SAR phase had formally been declared.
Allowing the URL to be submitted with a SARTIME would also be a good idea. (Actually, I have wondered whether you could put a URL in the Remarks field.)
This would have minimal cost and allow the user to choose the technology they use. A spot tracker costs a couple of hundred dollars, plus a couple of hundred US per year for a plan that tracks automatically when the device is moving.
So how do you propose something like spider tracks becoming "tamper proof"? To disable it all you have to do is pull the plug!
Or are you going to mount it in a place that cannot be reached from the cockpit? Defeats the purpose of having the ok/mark/SOS buttons on the unit!
What about power? They fire up and shut down based on the master switch generally as they are just plugged into the ciggy socket! In a prang how do you intend to make them work and still broadcast a position?
I do use a spider track unit, it is a very good basic tracking unit and if a plane prangs it will really help narrow down the search area. Provide it was working to begin with!
Or are you going to mount it in a place that cannot be reached from the cockpit? Defeats the purpose of having the ok/mark/SOS buttons on the unit!
What about power? They fire up and shut down based on the master switch generally as they are just plugged into the ciggy socket! In a prang how do you intend to make them work and still broadcast a position?
I do use a spider track unit, it is a very good basic tracking unit and if a plane prangs it will really help narrow down the search area. Provide it was working to begin with!
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One would think that anything that may help YOU as a pilot or operator or owner that's going to help you or staff you would use. So when you hope in your aircraft and go for a fly do you place your seat belt on ? Although there are many regs requirement for the fitent of seat belt on placement and type I'm yet to see a reg which requires by law that they are to be used. Even though in a light aircraft there a great chance that they will serve zero perpose in an accident. Yet we all use them funny that !!!!
Anyway keep creamie in a job and have no elt or plb or tell anyone use no gps tracking use Mogas run lop and have your local priest on speed dial.
I was told extremely early in life growing up flying on dad's knee not being able to see out over the dash just flying on the t&b and a/h.
There are no old bold pilots.
Anyway keep creamie in a job and have no elt or plb or tell anyone use no gps tracking use Mogas run lop and have your local priest on speed dial.
I was told extremely early in life growing up flying on dad's knee not being able to see out over the dash just flying on the t&b and a/h.
There are no old bold pilots.