Jabiru engine failures
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Aww come on guys, this is all part of the plan.
CAsA have just about bought the certified part of the industry to its knees with part 61. Part 135 will be the coup de grace.
The plastic fantastic brigade are easy. Bugger up their power plant and their screwed, easy peasy.
CAsA have just about bought the certified part of the industry to its knees with part 61. Part 135 will be the coup de grace.
The plastic fantastic brigade are easy. Bugger up their power plant and their screwed, easy peasy.
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No engine enelayis gauges just what the aircraft has feel smell and real knowledge.
No computers to tell you what a wrong.
No computers to tell you what a wrong.
The driver juggled these whilst usinga non-syncromesh gearbox,mechanical brakes, indifferent roads..... 20-25 MPG could be obtained by a good driver cruising around 40 mph.
Today, s driver has NO controls for the engine,other than "cruise" expects to set that to 80 mph and return at least 40 mpg.
These here new-fangled computers, electronic sensors, lean-burn injection technology all have their part to play in this revolution.
The days of pressing your ear to a screwdriver held against the "cly" block and tuning carbs by ear...
ARE LONG GONE. 21st. century engines need 21st. century mechanics. not Otto Daimler wannabes.
Jaba
It may be a little surprise to you but not all Jabas are on on the RAA some are even under VH rego.
It may be a little surprise to you but not all Jabas are on on the RAA some are even under VH rego.
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Jaba
Not so
Long ago you made a statement ( even though you don't know me ) that I didn't have very good trouble shooting skills.
Now you say all these things on how good you are. We'll how good are you. Why don't you come and work with us for a month and see how good you are. No engine enelayis gauges just what the aircraft has feel smell and real knowledge.
No computers to tell you what a wrong.
What you say. You up for it.
Not so
Long ago you made a statement ( even though you don't know me ) that I didn't have very good trouble shooting skills.
Now you say all these things on how good you are. We'll how good are you. Why don't you come and work with us for a month and see how good you are. No engine enelayis gauges just what the aircraft has feel smell and real knowledge.
No computers to tell you what a wrong.
What you say. You up for it.
$175 + GST, plays travel expenses is my going rate. But you need science and data, not "feel, smell and misguided knowledge".Others, like the the two best engine shops in Australia I work with for free.
More than happy, but are you? I doubt it. Put your money where your mouth is, I do all the time.
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https://www.change.org/p/the-hon-war...rcraft-engines
"Cancel CASA's proposed restrictions on Jabiru aircraft engines"
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__________________________
I thought I read somewhere CASA asked Jabiru to voluntarily impose restrictions on operations, but of course I can't find reference now.
Initially Jabiru accepted it had much work to do, but now seem to be arguing students should be able to deal with an engine failure.
That is the judgement CASA must make. Good luck, Lee Ungermann!
"Cancel CASA's proposed restrictions on Jabiru aircraft engines"
Fewer than 600 signed to date.
__________________________
I thought I read somewhere CASA asked Jabiru to voluntarily impose restrictions on operations, but of course I can't find reference now.
Initially Jabiru accepted it had much work to do, but now seem to be arguing students should be able to deal with an engine failure.
That is the judgement CASA must make. Good luck, Lee Ungermann!
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A little hegemony
So much for theory and hope of change then; back to grim reality. Seems the bad habits, aberrations, total disregard for due process, duty of care, procedural fairness, professional ethics and all that old-fashioned stuff, so long abandoned by the McComic tribe are not to be changed.
Forget reforming the regulations; as long has the regulator has the morals of an alley cat no amount of regulatory reform will change anything for the better. The extract below, part of a letter to CASA is yet another excellent example of why the regulator must be reformed. There should be no need for such a letter to have ever been written; never.
Just put the Jab donk issue aside for a moment and read between the lines, and see exactly what the extract is saying.
What a sorry testament; yet another perfect snapshot of an ugly scene. That's quite an album on the miniscule's desk, but he won't get to see the pictures; being blinded by the smoke and mirrors of the mystique generator.
Once a good fellah, name o' Barnaby
Decided on aviation harmony;
with a flick of the wrist and an elegant twist,
he delighted a few with his far seeing view and
signed off on the Forsyth review.
Toot toot.
Forget reforming the regulations; as long has the regulator has the morals of an alley cat no amount of regulatory reform will change anything for the better. The extract below, part of a letter to CASA is yet another excellent example of why the regulator must be reformed. There should be no need for such a letter to have ever been written; never.
Just put the Jab donk issue aside for a moment and read between the lines, and see exactly what the extract is saying.
On 4 November 2014 CASA engaged directly with Jabiru in relation to the proposed restrictions on Jabiru aircraft which included all aircraft manufactured by Jabiru as well as those non-Jabiru aircraft that have a Jabiru powerplant.
In this notice CASA clearly states the following:
“Prior to making the instrument, CASA invites Jabiru to make representations about the terms of the proposed instrument…”
In the days immediately following this Jabiru made arrangements to meet with CASA on 14 November 2014 to address the concerns and to take advantage of the opportunity to discuss the terms of the instrument as outlined in the regulators notice. This meeting was also intended to action CASAs request for Jabiru to respond by 10 November although it should be noted that due to illness of key CASA staff the meeting could not take place by the required date and that CASA agreed to extend the time. At this point Jabiru was led to believe that the proposed instrument would not be published until after the scheduled meeting.
On the afternoon of 13 November CASA pre-empted the outcome of the scheduled meeting with Jabiru and effectively ended the consultation with the manufacturer by publishing the commercially destructive proposed instrument. This occurred some 18 hours prior to the scheduled consultation with Jabiru.
In the days prior to this RA-Aus began receiving enquiries from concerned members noting that CASA officials had made mention of the proposed actions “over a beer or two” during the national Chief Flying Instructor conference held by RA-Aus. The conference is an annual event designed to inform RA-Aus instructors on new developments, changes to rules and generally improve safety in the aviation industry through the provision of training and education. It is fully funded by RA-Aus with no support from CASA or any other public source of funds.
In this notice CASA clearly states the following:
“Prior to making the instrument, CASA invites Jabiru to make representations about the terms of the proposed instrument…”
In the days immediately following this Jabiru made arrangements to meet with CASA on 14 November 2014 to address the concerns and to take advantage of the opportunity to discuss the terms of the instrument as outlined in the regulators notice. This meeting was also intended to action CASAs request for Jabiru to respond by 10 November although it should be noted that due to illness of key CASA staff the meeting could not take place by the required date and that CASA agreed to extend the time. At this point Jabiru was led to believe that the proposed instrument would not be published until after the scheduled meeting.
On the afternoon of 13 November CASA pre-empted the outcome of the scheduled meeting with Jabiru and effectively ended the consultation with the manufacturer by publishing the commercially destructive proposed instrument. This occurred some 18 hours prior to the scheduled consultation with Jabiru.
In the days prior to this RA-Aus began receiving enquiries from concerned members noting that CASA officials had made mention of the proposed actions “over a beer or two” during the national Chief Flying Instructor conference held by RA-Aus. The conference is an annual event designed to inform RA-Aus instructors on new developments, changes to rules and generally improve safety in the aviation industry through the provision of training and education. It is fully funded by RA-Aus with no support from CASA or any other public source of funds.
Once a good fellah, name o' Barnaby
Decided on aviation harmony;
with a flick of the wrist and an elegant twist,
he delighted a few with his far seeing view and
signed off on the Forsyth review.
Toot toot.
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In the enthusiasm to condemn what may be erratic action by CASA, I'm surprised at how readily the seriousness of the underlying problem has been put aside. First, the high failure rate of Jab engines relative to alternatives has been an open secret for years. And there are many reports on this site and elsewhere of the manufacturer being slow or unwilling to respond to the problem(s). Second, RA Aus has clearly failed to be effective in addressing the issues with the manufacturer, if it ever tried. To compound that, its failure to publish openly detailed comparative statistics added to the obscuration of the engine(s) issues.
The letter from which Kharon quotes is naive and embarrassing. It's heavy on RA Aus commercial self interest and light on addressing legitimate safety concerns about power plants used in aircraft often flown by student pilots and relatively inexperienced recreational pilots. So it's OK to take off with a sub-standard engine because RA Aus students practise forced landings? Give me a break.
You can argue that the CASA process was not ideal, and I might also argue that if I knew all the facts, not just those coming from selected quarters. But with Jabiru unresponsive, and RA Aus ineffective, how long did you expect CASA to sit on its hands?
The letter from which Kharon quotes is naive and embarrassing. It's heavy on RA Aus commercial self interest and light on addressing legitimate safety concerns about power plants used in aircraft often flown by student pilots and relatively inexperienced recreational pilots. So it's OK to take off with a sub-standard engine because RA Aus students practise forced landings? Give me a break.
You can argue that the CASA process was not ideal, and I might also argue that if I knew all the facts, not just those coming from selected quarters. But with Jabiru unresponsive, and RA Aus ineffective, how long did you expect CASA to sit on its hands?
I was one of the CFI's at the RAAus Dubbo conference, and I spoke informally with at least 3 CASA staff. There was never a hint of what was to follow. That's not to say that some people have now 'recollected' comments, and, with the benefit of hindsight, connected the dots. I don't recall the Jabiru engine subject being discussed within the CFI ranks either. happy days,
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Tecman – I'll concede the point. But you can only work with the information provided. Putting engines aside, I'll agree that the CASA, manufacturer and end user performance has been less than an 'ideal', none providing a timely response to the chronic problems you correctly point out.
However, I wonder, was the regulating culture more open, less threatening and more in the spirit of cooperation; then perhaps the end users, in cooperation with CASA and manufacturers could have produced a more acceptable response for all parties concerned, rather than the current mess which appears to be in the final throes of a death spiral...
However, I wonder, was the regulating culture more open, less threatening and more in the spirit of cooperation; then perhaps the end users, in cooperation with CASA and manufacturers could have produced a more acceptable response for all parties concerned, rather than the current mess which appears to be in the final throes of a death spiral...
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And by what statistical standard are they to be judged against?
Let's look at jets for a minute. Out of several major brands, one of the has to have a higher failure rate than the others. It could well be Rolls Royce if you look at the recent QF years. They might well have had twice the failures in Australia in recent years compared to GE, P&W or CFM.
Now what?
I predict if what Kharon has said above is true, that it is game over, before the match is played. The RAAus will be smashed hard as a group of people. The value of aircraft will be decimated. And the OEM will shut up shop. This will break dozens of small business owners. Like drought to farmers there could well be suicides as a result.
CASA should have been careful what they wished for.
I hope I am completely wrong.
Let's look at jets for a minute. Out of several major brands, one of the has to have a higher failure rate than the others. It could well be Rolls Royce if you look at the recent QF years. They might well have had twice the failures in Australia in recent years compared to GE, P&W or CFM.
Now what?
I predict if what Kharon has said above is true, that it is game over, before the match is played. The RAAus will be smashed hard as a group of people. The value of aircraft will be decimated. And the OEM will shut up shop. This will break dozens of small business owners. Like drought to farmers there could well be suicides as a result.
CASA should have been careful what they wished for.
I hope I am completely wrong.
Unfortunately jaba you are correct. GA is finished - what is left will either be converted into " mini airlines" if they have the money or give up. Now RAA has been hit for Six by what appears to be a spitefull former employee bent on revenge,
I guess it's the turn of the SAAA next to be destroyed, most probably by not renewing its members exemptions allowing them to conduct their own maintenance. CASA already has had a "trial run" to test the effect of not renewing the exemption, and it was highly effective in preventing flight for a month or so.
Are all ex RAAF people and regulators corrupt assholes? I only have radios and a transponder to buy to finish off, but now I'm starting to wonder if it might be a better use of my time to bin the thing and work on the garden.
Another alternative for the less law abiding might be to go "full feral" - ignore the entire system if they live in sparsely populated areas.
I guess it's the turn of the SAAA next to be destroyed, most probably by not renewing its members exemptions allowing them to conduct their own maintenance. CASA already has had a "trial run" to test the effect of not renewing the exemption, and it was highly effective in preventing flight for a month or so.
Are all ex RAAF people and regulators corrupt assholes? I only have radios and a transponder to buy to finish off, but now I'm starting to wonder if it might be a better use of my time to bin the thing and work on the garden.
Another alternative for the less law abiding might be to go "full feral" - ignore the entire system if they live in sparsely populated areas.
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Jabs, why do you imagine CAsA gives a toss
Their job is to regulate, which everyone must agree they do with amazing profusion
If that results in the whole of the aviation industry collapsing,
Stiff.... aint their problem.
Their job is to regulate, which everyone must agree they do with amazing profusion
If that results in the whole of the aviation industry collapsing,
Stiff.... aint their problem.
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Tecman I agree
In the enthusiasm to condemn what may be erratic action by CASA, I'm surprised at how readily the seriousness of the underlying problem has been put aside. First, the high failure rate of Jab engines relative to alternatives has been an open secret for years. And there are many reports on this site and elsewhere of the manufacturer being slow or unwilling to respond to the problem(s). Second, RA Aus has clearly failed to be effective in addressing the issues with the manufacturer, if it ever tried. To compound that, its failure to publish openly detailed comparative statistics added to the obscuration of the engine(s) issues.
Up for it........sure if you pay me to waste my time on you.
You see, if you've changed a thousand cookd clys, it stands to reason that you will know what caused them to be cookd. No need for no steeeeekin' EGT, CHT, fuel flow, RPM or other data.
If the pilots would just lean it to 25 degrees ROP in the cruise, using that steam driven single point EGT gauge, in accordance with the POH, nothing could possibly go wrong. That's because all those clys are operating at the same point on the EGT curve, at that oh-so-cool ROP setting.
Overheated magneto coil? Just swap the magneto! Once you've swapped a thousand magnetos, you'll know what causes the coils to overheat!
Tecman, if CAsA, its management and employees were financially damaged by their incompetent handling of this debacle in the same way Jabiru will be then it would be a fair fight but we know that this is far from the case. The bureaucracy will remain long after the industry has been decimated. This isn't a reason for the regulator not to take action, but it is a good reason for them to tread lightly.
Unfortunately regulation has become a national pastime in Australia and many Australians see more need for it than for industry. It will continue to be a self fulfilling prophecy in more than just the sport aviation field unless we change our nation's ways
Unfortunately regulation has become a national pastime in Australia and many Australians see more need for it than for industry. It will continue to be a self fulfilling prophecy in more than just the sport aviation field unless we change our nation's ways
this is tooo serious to spend time on this ROP/LOP rubbish. Jabiru is going to go out of business and a large chunk of the RAA fleet will go with it.
CASA'a approach to this matter is the classic one - drive them out of business by delay and obfuscation with no hard evidence able to be tested in a court.
Furthermore, I suspect this was timed deliberately to put Skidmore on the spot. He either has to immediately stop this deliberate and lethal assault on RAA or he is tarred with the same brush as McCormick.
To put that another way; "Sir, this is how we have to do things at CASA, it's the LAW Sir, surely you believe in obeying the LAW?"..and Skidmore will neatly fold up, another impotent piece of taxpayer funded windbag.
CASA'a approach to this matter is the classic one - drive them out of business by delay and obfuscation with no hard evidence able to be tested in a court.
Furthermore, I suspect this was timed deliberately to put Skidmore on the spot. He either has to immediately stop this deliberate and lethal assault on RAA or he is tarred with the same brush as McCormick.
To put that another way; "Sir, this is how we have to do things at CASA, it's the LAW Sir, surely you believe in obeying the LAW?"..and Skidmore will neatly fold up, another impotent piece of taxpayer funded windbag.
this is tooo serious to spend time on this ROP/LOP rubbish.
But in the weird and whacky world of aviation in Australia, 'discussions' are generally unhindered by trivialities like facts and cause.
Creamie, there are at least two aspects of this issue. Firstly are the facts that give rise to the issue and secondly is the fact-free manner in which the issue is being dealt with, despite the regulatory publicity.
Since reputable facts appear to be in short supply regarding Jabiru specifically, the discussion here is more speculation than rational debate. There are plenty of other ROP-LOP threads to reference the basic theory from as well.
As far as an on-line, box-ticking petition goes, if that's what's become of our democracy then we are beyond help.
I have written to my federal MP with this. I may have gone off half-cocked and with crackd clys but I'd encourage everyone with an interest to do likewise.
Here's the guts of my message -
Since reputable facts appear to be in short supply regarding Jabiru specifically, the discussion here is more speculation than rational debate. There are plenty of other ROP-LOP threads to reference the basic theory from as well.
As far as an on-line, box-ticking petition goes, if that's what's become of our democracy then we are beyond help.
I have written to my federal MP with this. I may have gone off half-cocked and with crackd clys but I'd encourage everyone with an interest to do likewise.
Here's the guts of my message -
I want to bring to your attention an action by the Civil Aviation Safety Authority that may have grave consequences for a small but internationally successful part of our manufacturing industry - namely Jabiru Aircraft and its affiliated manufacturing entities. Despite being subject to various "tall-poppy" actions and criticisms by some, Jabiru has developed a world-recognized and successful product line in their aircraft and aero engines. Such success doesn't come without failure, miss-step or free from issues that need addressing, but is nevertheless the results of many years of hard work, persistence and personal sacrifice of the many people involved.
Despite this, or perhaps even because of it, CASA has issued and made public a proposal to apply blanket restrictions on the use of Jabiru aircraft and other aircraft powered by Jabiru engines. You can find the relevant proposal published here - http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...c-cd1425ss.pdf This issue has also been raised on ABC Radio National Breakfast with Fran Kelly - http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podca...41120_0836.mp3
Most concerning is that the CASA proposal is a blanket restriction of all Jabiru products. There is no supporting data supplied or referenced with the proposal that would back such action, nor is it specific to certain models, build dates, serial numbers or any other such identifying detail that people in the aviation industry have come to expect from such airworthiness-related administrative action.
Also, from what I can gather, this proposal seems to have been made public prior to an already scheduled consultation between CASA and Jabiru representatives despite that even the publicity of such a proposal has grave implications for the future of anything Jabiru-related, both current airworthy aircraft and the business itself, locally and overseas.
It might be excusable and dismissed as an administrative error if this were an unprecedented action by CASA, but CASA has made the Friday afternoon "show cause notice" fax the stuff of legend among aircraft operators. Its actions appear to be somewhere between inconsiderate regarding the nature of small business at best and plain commercially vindictive at worst. If the government were to put a broom through the entire organisation of CASA it would find huge support within the industry. Better yet, would be to give CASA a US FAA-style directive to foster and encourage the industry along side the mission to regulate its safety.
Aviation is a vital part of Australia's infrastructure, industry and technological future. In many areas Australian aviation holds a world leading position which the nation desperately needs to maintain for our future prosperity and growth. Heavy-handed and rough-shod regulation will kill it slowly or drive it overseas.
I urge you to bring this issue of the Jabiru regulatory action by CASA to the urgent attention of your government colleagues at the highest level. I also request that you champion a review of the manner in which aviation is regulated in Australia. I look forward to reports of action and hearing of your success in this endeavour.
Despite this, or perhaps even because of it, CASA has issued and made public a proposal to apply blanket restrictions on the use of Jabiru aircraft and other aircraft powered by Jabiru engines. You can find the relevant proposal published here - http://www.casa.gov.au/wcmswr/_asset...c-cd1425ss.pdf This issue has also been raised on ABC Radio National Breakfast with Fran Kelly - http://mpegmedia.abc.net.au/rn/podca...41120_0836.mp3
Most concerning is that the CASA proposal is a blanket restriction of all Jabiru products. There is no supporting data supplied or referenced with the proposal that would back such action, nor is it specific to certain models, build dates, serial numbers or any other such identifying detail that people in the aviation industry have come to expect from such airworthiness-related administrative action.
Also, from what I can gather, this proposal seems to have been made public prior to an already scheduled consultation between CASA and Jabiru representatives despite that even the publicity of such a proposal has grave implications for the future of anything Jabiru-related, both current airworthy aircraft and the business itself, locally and overseas.
It might be excusable and dismissed as an administrative error if this were an unprecedented action by CASA, but CASA has made the Friday afternoon "show cause notice" fax the stuff of legend among aircraft operators. Its actions appear to be somewhere between inconsiderate regarding the nature of small business at best and plain commercially vindictive at worst. If the government were to put a broom through the entire organisation of CASA it would find huge support within the industry. Better yet, would be to give CASA a US FAA-style directive to foster and encourage the industry along side the mission to regulate its safety.
Aviation is a vital part of Australia's infrastructure, industry and technological future. In many areas Australian aviation holds a world leading position which the nation desperately needs to maintain for our future prosperity and growth. Heavy-handed and rough-shod regulation will kill it slowly or drive it overseas.
I urge you to bring this issue of the Jabiru regulatory action by CASA to the urgent attention of your government colleagues at the highest level. I also request that you champion a review of the manner in which aviation is regulated in Australia. I look forward to reports of action and hearing of your success in this endeavour.