CAAP 166-1(2) joining circuit upwind
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CAAP 166-1(2) joining circuit upwind
In the interpretation of CAAP 166-1(2) there seems to be general confusion as to how to join circuit on upwind at for example YTOC or TBLA.
When I pose the question for a 100kt aircraft, the most usual response from both private pilots and instructors is to "overfly upwind at 1500ft AGL then descend to 1000ft circuit height while still on upwind".
While this is what I was trained to do at YTDN back in 2004, it is NOT how I interpret the CAAP where all circuit joins are at circuit height and to never descend onto the active circuit.
Unfortunately, the CAAP does not specifically detail upwind joins, so most "seasoned" pilots/instructors either cite joining upwind at 1500ft as is done at YMMB, or, how they were originally trained pre NAS.
Your thoughts?
When I pose the question for a 100kt aircraft, the most usual response from both private pilots and instructors is to "overfly upwind at 1500ft AGL then descend to 1000ft circuit height while still on upwind".
While this is what I was trained to do at YTDN back in 2004, it is NOT how I interpret the CAAP where all circuit joins are at circuit height and to never descend onto the active circuit.
Unfortunately, the CAAP does not specifically detail upwind joins, so most "seasoned" pilots/instructors either cite joining upwind at 1500ft as is done at YMMB, or, how they were originally trained pre NAS.
Your thoughts?
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Some ADs have no dead side due glider or skydiving ops.
Read ERSA for YTDN where for added excitement, the one sided circuit is over water
Read ERSA for YTDN where for added excitement, the one sided circuit is over water
Last edited by Substandard; 17th Aug 2014 at 23:25. Reason: Clarity
Anyone want to take bets on how many pages this thread will run to arguing about how to join the circuit?
Seems that this is what aviation in Oz has become - nobody is sure about the latest "rules" for doing anything anymore!
So the old blokes like me default to doing what we have always done - and eventually the rule changes get back around to what we were taught 20 or 30 years ago.
Does that mean we were doing it right all along?
Dr
Seems that this is what aviation in Oz has become - nobody is sure about the latest "rules" for doing anything anymore!
So the old blokes like me default to doing what we have always done - and eventually the rule changes get back around to what we were taught 20 or 30 years ago.
Does that mean we were doing it right all along?
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 18th Aug 2014 at 00:58.
This is why I always do a straight in or join on base (Thanks Dick), avoids any confusion about whether I'm doing the right or wrong thing.
Originally Posted by Substandard
it is NOT how I interpret the CAAP where all circuit joins are at circuit height and to never descend onto the active circuit.
The CAAP even show a couple of aeroplanes arriving at "greater than circuit+500".
This is why I always do a straight in or join on base (Thanks Dick), avoids any confusion about whether I'm doing the right or wrong thing.
(Plus enough other words to make it work!)
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Overfly height?
The issue with descending on upwind is that there are potentially three circuit heights (500, 1000 and 1500) so a low performance aircraft would need to be at 2000agl then descend to 500 agl through two circuits levels on upwind
I always find it interesting the way pilots interpret rules, Regs & advisories (CAAPS). It shows one thing that like a lot of rules & regs in any industry there is always a level of confusion or doubt.
Personally although I haven't joined a circuit as being described here for sometime but upwind is part of a std circuit anyway. You have crosswind, downwind base & final, final also being upwind as you may have gone around for various reasons so flying upwind say for another circuit is considered still being in the circuit for landing & you would not climb to above normal circuit height anyway (unless departing) so upwind is actually in the circuit.
To sum all that up you need to be at circuit height BEFORE joining upwind as you would for say joining downwind, how you do that is variable due some of the reasons already mentioned here.
Common sense is yr best defense:-)
Wmk2
Personally although I haven't joined a circuit as being described here for sometime but upwind is part of a std circuit anyway. You have crosswind, downwind base & final, final also being upwind as you may have gone around for various reasons so flying upwind say for another circuit is considered still being in the circuit for landing & you would not climb to above normal circuit height anyway (unless departing) so upwind is actually in the circuit.
To sum all that up you need to be at circuit height BEFORE joining upwind as you would for say joining downwind, how you do that is variable due some of the reasons already mentioned here.
Common sense is yr best defense:-)
Wmk2
would need to be at 2000agl then descend to 500 agl through two circuits levels on upwind
Would you get Hi-Perf aircraft at YTOC? If not, that's one layer removed. Now it's only a descent from 1500ft.
6.6.4 of the CAAP does suggest joining at 500ft crossing the runway at midfield. At YTOC, whether that implies you could join on upwind ie along the runway at 500ft is another thing. Lots of potential conflicts: aircraft/gliders turning final belly-up to you (from both directions) and taking off and doing go-arounds (oh and those jokers doing Straight-ins, too)!
May be better to position well outside of the circuit and then just join on downwind at 500ft (as suggested in ERSA). For at least 180° of inbound tracks, that would work OK.
And of course, Talk... A quick call will direct your eyes and you can then keep clear of others.
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Capn B
The caution box on page 16 of the CAAP advises not to descend onto the active circuit.
Your post seems to suggests that the upwind leg is not part of the 'active circuit'. Am I understanding you correctly?
The caution box on page 16 of the CAAP advises not to descend onto the active circuit.
Your post seems to suggests that the upwind leg is not part of the 'active circuit'. Am I understanding you correctly?
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Agreed Jaba, but I get pinged every time I do an AFR. Different procedure every time!
Another instructor advises to be established at circuit height three miles before joining upwind.
Another instructor advises to be established at circuit height three miles before joining upwind.
Originally Posted by Subs
Your post seems to suggests that the upwind leg is not part of the 'active circuit'. Am I understanding you correctly?
We're probably arguing semantics, but I take Upwind to be the leg, on the deadside (or along the centreline at YTOC), on runway track.Hey Jabba, perhaps the CAAP is in response to the lowering of standards of pilots/instruction in this area... I don't have a problem with the CAAP; if you know it, then you know all you need to know about how to fly a circuit and interact sensibly with others, CASA-Approved. You won't get that from AIP or the CAR.
Another instructor advises to be established at circuit height three miles before joining upwind.
I don't like it. Someone in front of you could go a go-around and come up from underneath you. No dramas you say, just go slightly to the right of centre-line, however at places like YTDN you can't, because that could very well be the PJE side where you aren't meant to be
