A Mac Job Crosswind Landing Story
Thread Starter
A Mac Job Crosswind Landing Story
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Shoes are not the Point
While landing at Bankstown in gusty, crosswind conditions, a Piper PA-24 blew out both main wheel tyres and came to rest to one side of the runway. The pilot said afterwards that, in correcting cross-wind drift just before touchdown, he made fairly heavy applications of rudder and believed that the pointed toes of his shoes had touched the toe pedals of the rudder controls causing the brakes to be applied just before the aircraft touched down. The starboard tyre blew out first and then his sudden corrective action on the port rudder pedal caused the port tyre to blow. No other damage was done to the aircraft.
Despite the views expressed by the pilot, it is very doubtful whether the type of footwear being worn by the pilot has very much bearing on accidents of this sort. Most instructors would probably agree that this type of accident can happen if a pilot has his feet high enough up on the rudder-brake pedals to unintentionally apply braking during the stress of making a landing in difficult conditions. Pilots of aircraft that employ this type of braking system can normally guard against braking too early, by ensuring that their heels are resting on the floor until the aircraft has touched down. In this position, the pressure of each foot is against the lower portion of the brake pedals and the toe brakes cannot be depressed without a deliberate ankle movement.
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Most Ppruners of a certain age will remember Macarthur Job who was the editor of the highly regarded DCA flight safety magazine Aviation Safety Digest between June 1964 to 1976. ASD was discontinued at Digest No 150 in 1991. The current CASA flight safety journal is Flight Safety Australia and now only available in electronic form.
Mac Job is still around and continues to pen on-request flight safety articles for Flight Safety Australia, as well as for other Australian aviation journals. Over recent years, older Ppruners have compared the present FSA layout with that of Mac Job's Aviation Safety Digest style of writing and universally expressed their opinion that the old ASD was the best of them all. Some even boast they have hoarded old copies of Aviation Safety Digest in their sheds for nostalgic reading in their dotage. Guilty, Your Honour.
In the days of his editorship, Mac was given practically free reign over the content of ASD. As an experienced outback commercial pilot having flown aerial ambulance and charters in old biplanes like the DH Dragon, Mac was eminently qualified to sometimes add his own comments at the end of each story. This rarely happens in FSA nowadays, perhaps because of legal restrictions.
There was no advertising in Aviation Safety Digest. The magazine was usually set at 28 pages each packed full of interesting and highly informative incident and accident reports accompanied by relevant drawings or photographs. The majority of today's airline and GA pilots were not born when Mac was writing for Aviation Safety Digest and his name and reputation means nothing to them. Like all of us, Mac won't be around for ever and I thought it would be a good idea to reproduce one typical example of Mac Job's style of writing about an incident. Hence the story above. I apologise for the ill-fitting photo inserted with much swearing at my fumbling attempts using photobucket picture hosting website.
I had the pleasure of talking to Mac Job a few days ago. A full description of his history is at Airways Museum / Civil Aviation Historical Society Mac is in his late 80's now and lives at Olinda in Victoria. I asked him if I could put something on Pprune about him and he said no problem. But unfortunately there is a problem and that is Mac Job has recently been diagnosed with cancer and the prognosis is not good at all. I am sure everyone who knows Mac will cross their fingers for him and wish him all the best.
Centaurus.
[/IMG]Shoes are not the Point
While landing at Bankstown in gusty, crosswind conditions, a Piper PA-24 blew out both main wheel tyres and came to rest to one side of the runway. The pilot said afterwards that, in correcting cross-wind drift just before touchdown, he made fairly heavy applications of rudder and believed that the pointed toes of his shoes had touched the toe pedals of the rudder controls causing the brakes to be applied just before the aircraft touched down. The starboard tyre blew out first and then his sudden corrective action on the port rudder pedal caused the port tyre to blow. No other damage was done to the aircraft.
Despite the views expressed by the pilot, it is very doubtful whether the type of footwear being worn by the pilot has very much bearing on accidents of this sort. Most instructors would probably agree that this type of accident can happen if a pilot has his feet high enough up on the rudder-brake pedals to unintentionally apply braking during the stress of making a landing in difficult conditions. Pilots of aircraft that employ this type of braking system can normally guard against braking too early, by ensuring that their heels are resting on the floor until the aircraft has touched down. In this position, the pressure of each foot is against the lower portion of the brake pedals and the toe brakes cannot be depressed without a deliberate ankle movement.
............................................................ ..........................................
Most Ppruners of a certain age will remember Macarthur Job who was the editor of the highly regarded DCA flight safety magazine Aviation Safety Digest between June 1964 to 1976. ASD was discontinued at Digest No 150 in 1991. The current CASA flight safety journal is Flight Safety Australia and now only available in electronic form.
Mac Job is still around and continues to pen on-request flight safety articles for Flight Safety Australia, as well as for other Australian aviation journals. Over recent years, older Ppruners have compared the present FSA layout with that of Mac Job's Aviation Safety Digest style of writing and universally expressed their opinion that the old ASD was the best of them all. Some even boast they have hoarded old copies of Aviation Safety Digest in their sheds for nostalgic reading in their dotage. Guilty, Your Honour.
In the days of his editorship, Mac was given practically free reign over the content of ASD. As an experienced outback commercial pilot having flown aerial ambulance and charters in old biplanes like the DH Dragon, Mac was eminently qualified to sometimes add his own comments at the end of each story. This rarely happens in FSA nowadays, perhaps because of legal restrictions.
There was no advertising in Aviation Safety Digest. The magazine was usually set at 28 pages each packed full of interesting and highly informative incident and accident reports accompanied by relevant drawings or photographs. The majority of today's airline and GA pilots were not born when Mac was writing for Aviation Safety Digest and his name and reputation means nothing to them. Like all of us, Mac won't be around for ever and I thought it would be a good idea to reproduce one typical example of Mac Job's style of writing about an incident. Hence the story above. I apologise for the ill-fitting photo inserted with much swearing at my fumbling attempts using photobucket picture hosting website.
I had the pleasure of talking to Mac Job a few days ago. A full description of his history is at Airways Museum / Civil Aviation Historical Society Mac is in his late 80's now and lives at Olinda in Victoria. I asked him if I could put something on Pprune about him and he said no problem. But unfortunately there is a problem and that is Mac Job has recently been diagnosed with cancer and the prognosis is not good at all. I am sure everyone who knows Mac will cross their fingers for him and wish him all the best.
Centaurus.
Me three, for Typsy's first & second comments. I have mine here in the US and have lent various ones to others here because of some particularly germane article.
The Flight Safety was a piece of crap from it's 1st issue. Not a patch on the ASD!
The Flight Safety was a piece of crap from it's 1st issue. Not a patch on the ASD!
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Given some of the wanky clown sized pointy shoes I've seen some single sliver bar people wearing around airports, I'd say there's some credibility to them interfering with the toe brakes.. 
Last edited by drunk_pilot; 2nd Aug 2014 at 23:12. Reason: Typo
It isn't just pointy shoes that are a problem.
When doing my first landing in the Aero Commander 685 at Chattanooga, I nearly went off the runway.
Those of you that fly Commanders know about its steering.
The offending shoes were leather soled, and when I went to apply brakes one shoe slipped giving me brakes and steering only on one side. Hence the rapid side ways motion.
Lesson learnt, even after 6000 hours, I now wear good quality boots with a good rubber sole.
When doing my first landing in the Aero Commander 685 at Chattanooga, I nearly went off the runway.
Those of you that fly Commanders know about its steering.
The offending shoes were leather soled, and when I went to apply brakes one shoe slipped giving me brakes and steering only on one side. Hence the rapid side ways motion.
Lesson learnt, even after 6000 hours, I now wear good quality boots with a good rubber sole.
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Best wishes to Mr Job in his fight with his medical problem.
He is one of the people who totally deserve their legendary status in aviation.
He has truly made a difference.
Much respect.
He is one of the people who totally deserve their legendary status in aviation.
He has truly made a difference.
Much respect.
Last edited by rjtjrt; 4th Aug 2014 at 05:20.
Thread Starter
Mac's ASD story on partial braking caused by feet inadvertently too high on the pedals reminds me of a couple of stories. The Boeing 737 pilot training manual 1976 edition had this to say: Braking Technique
"For normal usage, the pilot's heels should be on the floor. Just before landing place your feet on the instep bar of the brake pedal with toes away from the brake pedals, so that the brakes may be applied without delay as soon as the wheels are on the ground, either to initiate manual braking or to override the autobrakes as required."
That advice was a real trap as the pilot had to not only place his feet higher than normal on the rudder pedals just before touch down, but also to bend his toes upwards in his shoe to avoid depressing the top part of the brake pedal while applying rudder control with his heels. It was on crosswind landings where rudder was needed and inadvertent brake use was common. Boeing later removed that advice from later editions of the flight crew training manual, thank goodness.
Also, on more than one occasion in the 737 flight simulator, it was noticed that some pilots under training inadvertently applied brake pedal pressure during the take off run. In a dark cockpit it is impossible to see someone's toes applying brake pressure. However the simulator instructor station depicts on a screen a brake pressure gauge for each wheel brake from zero brake pressure to 3000 PSI.
During the take off run, inadvertent brake pedal pressure by a pilot is easily seen with the brake pressure gauge on the instructor panel oscillating from no brake pressure to 200 PSI and sometimes 500PSI. The pilot is usually quite unaware that he is inadvertently touching the top of the rudder pedal with his toes - enough to apply brake pressure. Of course the slower acceleration invalidates the calculation of V1 as well as causing heat build up in the brakes.
During one 737 training session with two Asian cadet first officers, the instructor told the PF he was using the brakes during the take off roll since he (the instructor) could see the brake pressures fluctuating on the instructor display. The student flatly denied using the brakes. This was a classic example of denial and loss of face. So for the next take off, the instructor invited the other cadet to sit on the instructors seat while his compatriot did another take off. Sure enough, the brake pressure gauge on the instructor panel revealed without a shadow of doubt that the pilot was inadvertently applying intermittent brake pedal pressure on his rudder pedals. The cadet observing the instructor screen saw this happening and in his own native language explained to his sim buddy what he was doing. That left one recalcitrant cadet somewhat red-faced and the instructor smiling in quiet satisfaction.
"For normal usage, the pilot's heels should be on the floor. Just before landing place your feet on the instep bar of the brake pedal with toes away from the brake pedals, so that the brakes may be applied without delay as soon as the wheels are on the ground, either to initiate manual braking or to override the autobrakes as required."
That advice was a real trap as the pilot had to not only place his feet higher than normal on the rudder pedals just before touch down, but also to bend his toes upwards in his shoe to avoid depressing the top part of the brake pedal while applying rudder control with his heels. It was on crosswind landings where rudder was needed and inadvertent brake use was common. Boeing later removed that advice from later editions of the flight crew training manual, thank goodness.
Also, on more than one occasion in the 737 flight simulator, it was noticed that some pilots under training inadvertently applied brake pedal pressure during the take off run. In a dark cockpit it is impossible to see someone's toes applying brake pressure. However the simulator instructor station depicts on a screen a brake pressure gauge for each wheel brake from zero brake pressure to 3000 PSI.
During the take off run, inadvertent brake pedal pressure by a pilot is easily seen with the brake pressure gauge on the instructor panel oscillating from no brake pressure to 200 PSI and sometimes 500PSI. The pilot is usually quite unaware that he is inadvertently touching the top of the rudder pedal with his toes - enough to apply brake pressure. Of course the slower acceleration invalidates the calculation of V1 as well as causing heat build up in the brakes.
During one 737 training session with two Asian cadet first officers, the instructor told the PF he was using the brakes during the take off roll since he (the instructor) could see the brake pressures fluctuating on the instructor display. The student flatly denied using the brakes. This was a classic example of denial and loss of face. So for the next take off, the instructor invited the other cadet to sit on the instructors seat while his compatriot did another take off. Sure enough, the brake pressure gauge on the instructor panel revealed without a shadow of doubt that the pilot was inadvertently applying intermittent brake pedal pressure on his rudder pedals. The cadet observing the instructor screen saw this happening and in his own native language explained to his sim buddy what he was doing. That left one recalcitrant cadet somewhat red-faced and the instructor smiling in quiet satisfaction.
To brake or not to brake:-)
Old Mac was part of our flying upbringing, he will not be forgotten anyway so for now he's gunna be with us for sometime, the flying Gods will not be able to take this man from us just yet
I'm one of the few believers that the feet should be on the rudder pedals on T/off & Ldg clear of the floor. (The only time is did otherwise is when flying the old Doves) Few do this as far as I know. Makes for much better application of the rudder & brakes together when needed, try telling that to the old school who believe heels on the floor at all times until the brakes are need.
Trouble with heels on the floor is that if you have say full deflection of a rudder pedal dealing with a wayward machine (especially when during a rejected T/Off from a failed donk & full thrust on the live donk) then when it comes time to apply brakes the rudders have to be momentarily released to allow the feet to be moved/slid up the pedal in order to apply the brake/s,damned risky & often when traveling as a pax down the back you can tell when the driver is doing just that as the machine swings wildly. This is why Airbus have huge rudder pedals to allow for the whole foot to be placed on the pedal complete with a toe stop during T/off & Ldg, try telling that to some & you get a huge argument:-)
Now lets see the debate start:-)
Wmk2
I'm one of the few believers that the feet should be on the rudder pedals on T/off & Ldg clear of the floor. (The only time is did otherwise is when flying the old Doves) Few do this as far as I know. Makes for much better application of the rudder & brakes together when needed, try telling that to the old school who believe heels on the floor at all times until the brakes are need.
Trouble with heels on the floor is that if you have say full deflection of a rudder pedal dealing with a wayward machine (especially when during a rejected T/Off from a failed donk & full thrust on the live donk) then when it comes time to apply brakes the rudders have to be momentarily released to allow the feet to be moved/slid up the pedal in order to apply the brake/s,damned risky & often when traveling as a pax down the back you can tell when the driver is doing just that as the machine swings wildly. This is why Airbus have huge rudder pedals to allow for the whole foot to be placed on the pedal complete with a toe stop during T/off & Ldg, try telling that to some & you get a huge argument:-)
Now lets see the debate start:-)
Wmk2
I have a common problem with pilots rding the brakes when they fly with me in a PA31 I manage. I've lost track of the number of times I've had to tell them to stop riding the brakes during taxi. Often they deny they're doing it, but I can feel the deceleration or see the pitching as they steer. When I look at their feet I can them with their heels too close to the pedal, causing them to use their instep on the bar and their toes resting against the brake pedal.
Some just flat out deny they're doing it. One of whom has large feet so it's particularly easy for him to activate the brakes. Wish I had microswitches on the brake pedals coupled to a warning light, horn, or cattle prod attached to their person.
Some just flat out deny they're doing it. One of whom has large feet so it's particularly easy for him to activate the brakes. Wish I had microswitches on the brake pedals coupled to a warning light, horn, or cattle prod attached to their person.
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I had the honour and pleasure of having Mac assist me in the 90's to establish some aviation safety awards and as a judge of these awards.
I true gentleman who wrote truely insightful accident investigation through his Air Crash and Air Disaster publications.
My thoughts are with him in his current battles with his health.
I true gentleman who wrote truely insightful accident investigation through his Air Crash and Air Disaster publications.
My thoughts are with him in his current battles with his health.
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I saw a little of the old ASD, learned a lot from it, and certainly wish Mr Job all the best with his current battle.
I'm not sure that the posted example is a very good one, though. Unless there was some supporting material which is not included alongside the picture, I don't know what to make of the unsupported opinion that the shoes played no part. Personally, I don't know why anyone would try and land a Comanche or anything else in over-size elf shoes, but there you go....
I'm not sure that the posted example is a very good one, though. Unless there was some supporting material which is not included alongside the picture, I don't know what to make of the unsupported opinion that the shoes played no part. Personally, I don't know why anyone would try and land a Comanche or anything else in over-size elf shoes, but there you go....
Winding the seat full up in a 100 or 200 Cessna can cause you to apply brake anytime you use coarse rudder inputs, sometimes with interesting results.
I have a fair collection of ASDs. I found them to be very sobering reading for a young green bloke. BTRE has an enormous amount of preliminary reports going back to the 60's.
I asked and got all the C180/185 data some years ago. Instructive reading.
I have a fair collection of ASDs. I found them to be very sobering reading for a young green bloke. BTRE has an enormous amount of preliminary reports going back to the 60's.
I asked and got all the C180/185 data some years ago. Instructive reading.
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Hi Centaurus and DJP if you are following this thread
I also read(devoured) the contents of the old crash comic and appreciated the wisdom embedded between its covers.
I also had the pleasure of taking Mac for a brief flight in my Auster just a few years ago and hope he remembers the experience kindly.
Kaz
I also read(devoured) the contents of the old crash comic and appreciated the wisdom embedded between its covers.
I also had the pleasure of taking Mac for a brief flight in my Auster just a few years ago and hope he remembers the experience kindly.
Kaz
