Engine off operations
Join Date: May 2001
Location: Sydney
Age: 60
Posts: 1,542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Dora-9,
I was responding to XXX's comment about operating Pipistrels as motor gliders in "GA" config. I really do not know the answer on engine out ops but would think that extended engine out ops would come under "gliding" and therefore the GFA. (And for good reason)
The Dimonas you mention are operated under GFA so engine out ops are no problem. I have never seen their ops but know one of the pilots, definitely a glider pilot.
The way I see it there are three "groups" you can fly aircraft with in Aus:
(More if you count hang gliders, para gliders, weight shift microlights and balloons)
1: CASA, VH registered aircraft (including SAAA and warbirds), need PPL+ and maintenance release by Lame or owner builder/approved person signed daily by licences pilot.
2: RAA, "number" registered aircraft, flying approvals and maintenance approvals by RAA. (Apologies if terminology wrong, I know little about the RAA)
3: GFA, VH registered gliders/motorgliders, approval to fly and maintain through GFA dispensations from CASA. (GPC etc, daily inspection, annual inspection etc)
When CASA finally gets part 61 through there may be licence changes.
To fly or sign out the daily inspection on the maintenance release of a glider/motorglider you need to do it through GFA. Obviously you can then launch (glider speak for take-off
) , and at some stage of flight shut the engine down and glide.
Motorgliders come in various types from the two seat side by side "travelling MG" to what looks like a pure glider with retractable motors that may be piston, electric or Jet!
Can you shut down the engine if the "motorglider" is registered and flown under situation 1 or 2?
I don't know but would get legal advise before I did so!
You cannot jump into a GFA licenced and maintained VH motorglider and fly or sign it out just on a GA licence.
I am sure there must be something about stopping/starting engines inflight as part of GA,RAA training written somewhere?
(Which was XXX's initial question)
I was responding to XXX's comment about operating Pipistrels as motor gliders in "GA" config. I really do not know the answer on engine out ops but would think that extended engine out ops would come under "gliding" and therefore the GFA. (And for good reason)
The Dimonas you mention are operated under GFA so engine out ops are no problem. I have never seen their ops but know one of the pilots, definitely a glider pilot.
The way I see it there are three "groups" you can fly aircraft with in Aus:
(More if you count hang gliders, para gliders, weight shift microlights and balloons)
1: CASA, VH registered aircraft (including SAAA and warbirds), need PPL+ and maintenance release by Lame or owner builder/approved person signed daily by licences pilot.
2: RAA, "number" registered aircraft, flying approvals and maintenance approvals by RAA. (Apologies if terminology wrong, I know little about the RAA)
3: GFA, VH registered gliders/motorgliders, approval to fly and maintain through GFA dispensations from CASA. (GPC etc, daily inspection, annual inspection etc)
When CASA finally gets part 61 through there may be licence changes.
To fly or sign out the daily inspection on the maintenance release of a glider/motorglider you need to do it through GFA. Obviously you can then launch (glider speak for take-off
) , and at some stage of flight shut the engine down and glide.Motorgliders come in various types from the two seat side by side "travelling MG" to what looks like a pure glider with retractable motors that may be piston, electric or Jet!
Can you shut down the engine if the "motorglider" is registered and flown under situation 1 or 2?
I don't know but would get legal advise before I did so!
You cannot jump into a GFA licenced and maintained VH motorglider and fly or sign it out just on a GA licence.
I am sure there must be something about stopping/starting engines inflight as part of GA,RAA training written somewhere?
(Which was XXX's initial question)
Moderator
Engine off ops ?
Is that, for instance, when glider tug pilots finish launching for the morning, turn the noise off, and go wave soaring for an hour or two prior to landing off the final launch .. ?
Maybe folks don't do that sort of thing any more ?
Not that I'd know anything about such things, of course .. although I have it on good authority that other folks have done such things in the way distant past on wave camps ...
Is that, for instance, when glider tug pilots finish launching for the morning, turn the noise off, and go wave soaring for an hour or two prior to landing off the final launch .. ?
Maybe folks don't do that sort of thing any more ?
Not that I'd know anything about such things, of course .. although I have it on good authority that other folks have done such things in the way distant past on wave camps ...
Join Date: Dec 2003
Location: Australia
Posts: 926
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Brian Abraham wrote
I had the same demo, both in a Chipmunk and a PA-28, many years ago.
John
At the pre solo stage one of the exercises done was engine restart in flight (Chipmunk) - early 60's. No starter fitted, aircraft was slowed so that the prop came to a stop, and then nose lowered to note at what speed the prop started to rotate and restart. Seem to remember it taking quite a speed to get the prop moving again. Don't know if it was a required exercise at the time, or if the instructor was just showing what it takes.
John
At the pre solo stage one of the exercises done was engine restart in flight (Chipmunk) - early 60's. No starter fitted, aircraft was slowed so that the prop came to a stop, and then nose lowered to note at what speed the prop started to rotate and restart. Seem to remember it taking quite a speed to get the prop moving again.
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Looking forward to returning to Japan soon but in the meantime continuing the never ending search for a bad bottle of Red!
Age: 69
Posts: 2,976
Received 102 Likes
on
59 Posts
Is that, for instance, when glider tug pilots finish launching for the morning, turn the noise off, and go wave soaring for an hour or two prior to landing off the final launch
The late Helmut Appitz had just refuelled his Tiger Moth and happened to look at the sky and thought that it would be fun to have a glide himself. So he took off in the Tiger, climbed to 2,000` and shut down the engine and commenced soaring.
Stayed up for well over an hour and climbed to over 5,000` if I remember correctly.
(I was only 11 at the time.)
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,055
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
JaT # 22 –"Is that, for instance, when glider tug pilots finish launching for the morning, turn the noise off, and go wave soaring for an hour or two prior to landing off the final launch .. ?"
Without at least 25 approved pages in the manual, clearly defining how, where , when and in what sequence these highly dangerous activities may (in certain circumstances) be conducted; supported by blood chilling reminders of 'strict liability' penalty clauses and strict monitoring of the operation under ADSB; these, humble, joyful pursuits of piloting are strictly verboten: I'm sure you know this.
We will arrive tomorrow morning 0830 sharp, with a search warrant to make absolutely certain, that we are totally satisfied that no one has any fun: ever..
The very idea – pilots having fun.....indeed..(has to stop)..
Moderator
Could it catch on?
Oh, indeed ..
the risk that they may have fun
It was often observed that one of the best ways to have fun with one's clothes on .. involved SuperCubs on wave camps ... of those other dreadful chaps of my acquaintance who would do such wicked things .. C* was a master at wave soaring ... but, then he was an experienced sailplane fellow.
as an aside ... heading back from Berridale to Camden one time ... I didn't recognise the voice on FS as being one of the gliding folk ... took me quite by surprise when he asked, rather quietly ... "How's the mag drop going .. ?"
Oh, indeed ..
the risk that they may have fun
It was often observed that one of the best ways to have fun with one's clothes on .. involved SuperCubs on wave camps ... of those other dreadful chaps of my acquaintance who would do such wicked things .. C* was a master at wave soaring ... but, then he was an experienced sailplane fellow.
as an aside ... heading back from Berridale to Camden one time ... I didn't recognise the voice on FS as being one of the gliding folk ... took me quite by surprise when he asked, rather quietly ... "How's the mag drop going .. ?"
Join Date: May 2013
Location: have I forgotten or am I lost?
Age: 71
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
one of my mates stood a bollocking at the flying school I learnt at.
"you've been out for over 2 hours, why does the tacho indicate 45 minutes? where did you land? you aren't authorised for outfield landings yet"
what he'd done is climb out over the murray river where the thermals were strongest, shut down the engine and glided around in the thermals for over an hour. done a mid air restart and flown back.
he took the bollocking for an outfield landing because to admit what he'd done would have seen a bigger bollocking.
"you've been out for over 2 hours, why does the tacho indicate 45 minutes? where did you land? you aren't authorised for outfield landings yet"
what he'd done is climb out over the murray river where the thermals were strongest, shut down the engine and glided around in the thermals for over an hour. done a mid air restart and flown back.
he took the bollocking for an outfield landing because to admit what he'd done would have seen a bigger bollocking.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Next door to the wrong neighbours
Posts: 243
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do you mean to fly like this? Engine off from 5 minutes. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8J9v433C0nM
The plane is a Rans S-7S.
The plane is a Rans S-7S.
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Next door to the wrong neighbours
Posts: 243
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
This bloke does some thermaling in his Taylorcraft, lands and parks in front of his hangar all engine out.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-u-MCDi7Gk
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E-u-MCDi7Gk
maybe engine off is not permitted in GA aircraft because.... shock cooling?
At the pre solo stage one of the exercises done was engine restart in flight (Chipmunk) - early 60's. No starter fitted, aircraft was slowed so that the prop came to a stop, and then nose lowered to note at what speed the prop started to rotate and restart. Seem to remember it taking quite a speed to get the prop moving again. Don't know if it was a required exercise at the time, or if the instructor was just showing what it takes.
I had the same demo, both in a Chipmunk and a PA-28, many years ago.
I had the same demo, both in a Chipmunk and a PA-28, many years ago.
As I recall, many students were very reluctant to push the nose down hard enough when the aircraft was a PA 28.
Tootle pip!!
PS: Used to have a girlfriend up NW NSW, in the days when I had a "big tank" (24Gal.) Chipmunk. With SW winds, with luck I got about 90min. at idle, IAS 120 or so at 8-10,00ft. over the western slopes, and it made a two sector trip, instead of three.
The New Zealanders are the experts at using the lee waves and rotors, came back from Wanaka to Wellington one afternoon in an AC500A, for about two hours at 13,000 ft, we had an IAS top of the green, engines at idle, gives great NAMP.
Last edited by LeadSled; 21st Jun 2014 at 08:38.
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: SoCal
Posts: 50
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
At the pre solo stage one of the exercises done was engine restart in flight (Chipmunk) - early 60's.
(Mine had the Robertson STOL kit, which reduced stall speed by about 10 knots. It was very difficult to stop the prop, had to fly fully stalled, below 55 knots or so. I don't know if you could do it without the STOL kit.)
John Deakin