MIKE DELTA X-RAY
Some people may not be aware, or may have forgotten, what a paternalistic system Australia used to have, and why ‘uncontrolled’ is a slightly misleading description of airspace back then.
Have a close look at the flight plan submitted by the PIC of MDX. Mark well the significance of the “Operational Approval” box and the various stamps on that document.
The perspective from the ground may well have been that this level of supervision was to “help”. The perspective from the cockpit was of being supervised.
Have a close look at the flight plan submitted by the PIC of MDX. Mark well the significance of the “Operational Approval” box and the various stamps on that document.
The perspective from the ground may well have been that this level of supervision was to “help”. The perspective from the cockpit was of being supervised.
The stamps on the flight plan are the generic stamp applied to show what pre-flight briefing material was supplied/discussed at the planning stage, and the date/time group stamped on it when it was submitted. The Operational Approval field is blank, has no approval or void time and the signature field for the ATC is blank. This flight plan was in no way subject to any form of control, except for the normal briefing requirements that it met the relevant regulations.
Yes, back then there was Operational Control by ATC over certain classes of operation, but this was not one of them (was only IFR in CTA if I recall correctly). And yes, it was paternalistic, and one of the first things to go, although from memory it went prior to Dick having any involvement.
Back in the day, Australia's FIS system was very similar to Canada's. Huge airspace, not much radar or CTA, and what there was of it all concentrated in a small area.
Traffic. You won't get away with that one. The rediculously expensive and unique to Australia " operational control" by the government was not removed until I became Chairman of CAA.
To save the industry needless costs!
To save the industry needless costs!
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Well spent, were they?
Things 'better' now? Safer? Yep we have TAAATS now, and 'ATC' to SFC.
And...??
Farmer Joe in his 172 any better off? What about old mate Charter operator with his two Chieftains? Regionals? Heavies?
Entertain me Dick. I really want to know, if all those reforms you enforced upon the industry were so cost effective and going to breath life-blood into aviation...
where is the money??
p.s what do reckon might be the bigger behemoth, Ops Control or the NOC??
Hempy
Well this "river of money" certainly hasn't boosted aviation activity.
NOC
where is the money??
p.s what do reckon might be the bigger behemoth, Ops Control or the NOC??
p.s what do reckon might be the bigger behemoth, Ops Control or the NOC??
NOC
Ok Dick. Point conceded. As I said, I couldn't remember when it stopped. I thought it was earlier than that.
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"I wonder if you have worked closely with me - maybe not - so you could be relying on advice that is here say ."
Actually Dick, I did try and work closely with you, but with very little success - the reason I remember it so well was because of a conversation we had many years ago when you relayed a story to me about the day you were taxying at Taree or Port Macquarie ( I think ) in your citation, and Flight Service gave you about half a dozen lots of traffic.
You unashamedly told me that you couldnt even write them down quickly enough and because the skies were blue, you decided to completely ignore the traffic information and blast off regardless. At that point, you lost me. Hardly what you would expect from the Chairman of Casa. Your reasoning was your utmost belief in the see-and-avoid principle.
The folly of this principle was finally proven by the CSIRO who wrote an excellent article on the subject, debunking the whole concept. As a professional airline pilot, I can vouch for their opinion a thousand times over as I'm sure many others would as well. Even when we spot someone on TCAS, we often don't spot them visually til the very last second, at which point it would have been too late to take avoiding action if they HAD been in conflict.
So are the CSIRO and all the PROFESSIONAL aviators out there the people whose advice you chose to ignore ? It seems that way Dick, and that is a real shame. As I said previously, such a pity that such a fine Australian spoils himself when it comes to matters aviation ( with the greatest of respect ).
Actually Dick, I did try and work closely with you, but with very little success - the reason I remember it so well was because of a conversation we had many years ago when you relayed a story to me about the day you were taxying at Taree or Port Macquarie ( I think ) in your citation, and Flight Service gave you about half a dozen lots of traffic.
You unashamedly told me that you couldnt even write them down quickly enough and because the skies were blue, you decided to completely ignore the traffic information and blast off regardless. At that point, you lost me. Hardly what you would expect from the Chairman of Casa. Your reasoning was your utmost belief in the see-and-avoid principle.
The folly of this principle was finally proven by the CSIRO who wrote an excellent article on the subject, debunking the whole concept. As a professional airline pilot, I can vouch for their opinion a thousand times over as I'm sure many others would as well. Even when we spot someone on TCAS, we often don't spot them visually til the very last second, at which point it would have been too late to take avoiding action if they HAD been in conflict.
So are the CSIRO and all the PROFESSIONAL aviators out there the people whose advice you chose to ignore ? It seems that way Dick, and that is a real shame. As I said previously, such a pity that such a fine Australian spoils himself when it comes to matters aviation ( with the greatest of respect ).
Moisie. I can see why you post anonymously.
Your statement is not factually based.
I no stage did I " blast off regardless " after being given traffic on six other aircraft at Taree or Port Macquarie.
Seeing you can't even remember which airport it was I think their is a chance you have the story mixed up.
In fact I communicated to all six other pilots as I was taxiing and arranged full procedural " radio arranged" separation using superior spatial abilities I had leaned as an Aussie pilot. Required a total of 261 calls backward and forward while we jammed up the area frequency as there were no CTAFs in those days.
Somehow I got airborne safely and did not need to look out to see and avoid at any time- was head down writing all the call signs and estimates down!
Those Americans with their E airspace with VFR pilots not even knowing the frequency IFR aircraft are on are simply losers.
I dream of the day we can go back to the quadrantal rule where IFR and VFR fly at the same level and we are given a traffic information service on all aircraft within 50 nm. Get all those 600 FSO 's back in jobs all over Australia . Will stop all those en route mid air collisions we have had since 1991 - when we moved to the ICAO semi circular rule - some 23 years ago.
Your statement is not factually based.
I no stage did I " blast off regardless " after being given traffic on six other aircraft at Taree or Port Macquarie.
Seeing you can't even remember which airport it was I think their is a chance you have the story mixed up.
In fact I communicated to all six other pilots as I was taxiing and arranged full procedural " radio arranged" separation using superior spatial abilities I had leaned as an Aussie pilot. Required a total of 261 calls backward and forward while we jammed up the area frequency as there were no CTAFs in those days.
Somehow I got airborne safely and did not need to look out to see and avoid at any time- was head down writing all the call signs and estimates down!
Those Americans with their E airspace with VFR pilots not even knowing the frequency IFR aircraft are on are simply losers.
I dream of the day we can go back to the quadrantal rule where IFR and VFR fly at the same level and we are given a traffic information service on all aircraft within 50 nm. Get all those 600 FSO 's back in jobs all over Australia . Will stop all those en route mid air collisions we have had since 1991 - when we moved to the ICAO semi circular rule - some 23 years ago.
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Dick, I can see why so many of my colleagues gave up on you years ago. I have continued to give you the benefit of the doubt and sung your praises when warranted. I cannot believe you have changed your story 100% from what you told me at the time. How very disappointing. Regrettably, and I mean that as sincerely as possible, I will now join my colleagues in giving up on you. I have completely wasted my time.
Hey Dick,
Bit 'late' now for the 'RADAR' thingie....isn't it..???
WE did try for that one, and for 'VHF Direction Finding', and for the official monitoring of 121.5 from various outlets, and for additional VHF outlets, some of them quite 'cheap'.....all to no avail....
And just WHO gave Good Ole FS the 'coup de grace'..??
p.s. Thanks again for the redundo......
Griffo
Bit 'late' now for the 'RADAR' thingie....isn't it..???
WE did try for that one, and for 'VHF Direction Finding', and for the official monitoring of 121.5 from various outlets, and for additional VHF outlets, some of them quite 'cheap'.....all to no avail....
And just WHO gave Good Ole FS the 'coup de grace'..??
p.s. Thanks again for the redundo......
Griffo
And just WHO gave Good Ole FS the 'coup de grace'..??
Sorry Griffo, we as pilots never really needed it, it just took Dick to point that out. Hope your redundo was good though
Ex FSO GRIFFO
I am actually going to write a bit of a book about some of my experiences in changes in aviation regulatory reform. I can remember that VHF direction finding one really well. When I was first on the Board it was one of the projects. I will send you a private message with my contact details – I would love to speak to you on the phone about some of those days as you really have the clues!
Were the VHF direction finding units going to go into the towers as well as for flight service or were they just for flight service? Can you remember what that project was actually called?
I am actually going to write a bit of a book about some of my experiences in changes in aviation regulatory reform. I can remember that VHF direction finding one really well. When I was first on the Board it was one of the projects. I will send you a private message with my contact details – I would love to speak to you on the phone about some of those days as you really have the clues!
Were the VHF direction finding units going to go into the towers as well as for flight service or were they just for flight service? Can you remember what that project was actually called?
G'day Dick,
Sorry, but I can't recall the VHF DF project having a 'project name', other than just that of 'VHF DF'.
A unit on the top of our outlet at Mt Canobolas near Orange, NSW, would have been a useful tool, because of the range of that particular VHF site.
Another unit at another adjacent location would have enabled a 'cross reference' of bearings to give a 'fix' perhaps....
I think the idea was to install VHF DF at some 'remote' locations, e.g. Kalgoorlie, Derby, Meeka etc., to assist pilots who may have been 'unsure of their current position' = lost.
It was a 'line of sight' direction only, displayed as a line on a circular CRT with a compass rose around the circumference to give the bearing of the line.
They were available 'off the shelf', and were used in the UK in conjunction with IF 'homing' procedures.
I cannot recall if ATC were going to need them, as most ATC units were located in populated centres, where nav. was not usually the problem.
All superceeded now by GPS....but 40 or so years ago....
I may 'drift' a little here....patience please...
Another 'project' that I had some connection with, was the proposal to install a VHF outlet on top of Mt Bakewell, near York WA.
This would have provided a much improved VHF coverage to the WA wheatbelt generally, and to Cunderdin in particular.
YCUN at the time was a major G/A IFR training location because of its proximity to Perth, and the NDB located there.
Imagine, a 'major' G/A training location only 67nm (if I remember correctly)from Perth International Airport, and, having NIL VHF below a 'good' circuit area altitude!
Aircraft below circuit area altitude, on the ground etc, had to call HF - only 67 nm from Perth.
As all of the required infrastructure, road access, power, TV and Telstra repeater towers etc, was already in place on Bakewell, the projected cost of this VHF installation was 'quoted' at just under $10K.
(You may have been able to provide the equipment for a fraction of this....who knows...)
All of the advantages - for what could be the cost of a 'corporate lunch' (?).... You get the idea.....'Affordable safety' was now in manager's minds....
None of which would have helped poor MDX on that fateful night.
I'm not sure I can assist you much with your book, However, I can ring you sometime, and have a yarn.
These days, the chronological order of sequence of events is a bit 'blurred'.
(Like, I can forget just where I left the car keys, but when I do find them, I still know 'wot they're for'.....)
The 'initial cut' of 12/12/'91 when services to VFR aircraft were deleted, (some may say 'relaxed') did enable rationalisation / consolidation, and 'affordable safety' became the new mantra.
The opportunity to see the 'old public service mentality' dinosaurs depart the service was good as it enabled a leaner meaner more 'flexible' service to be provided. And I was proud to be a part of that.
And therefore it became much cheaper to operate. e.g. Perth Flight Service Centre staff numbers went from something like 138 in '91 to just 38 or so towards the 'end' in December 2000 - as 'aircraft 'movements' became less and we were able to 'combine' adjacent areas to less staff operating those areas..
The closure of the Briefing Offices was a travesty. They were the 'Shop Front Window' where all flight information could be obtained, NOTAMs etc obtained maps / chart purchases made, and a personal briefing obtained if that was required.
Pertinent NOTAM's ONLY - THANKS. Not the pages of drivel we have to sift thru these days....And they also provided a 'meeting point' for pilots to 'interface' with the system - and exchange the rumours of the day...
Now we resort to this site, and what a site it is.
We did 'trial' a thing called 'FISADS' where we typed the dep. point, destination, aircraft time intervals into a computer, and when the aircraft departed, the actual dep. time.
The machine then 'drew' a straight line track and displayed a symbol along that track commensurate with the aircraft's planned position....However, it was in NO WAY 'connected' to the actual track that the aircraft actually flew - just the 'planned' details.
Of limited use.
And it took us longer to enter the info than it did to write the reported actual position on the cardboard Flight Progress Strip, in our abbreviated way, and process it.
It was reported to have cost MILLIONS - and was said to have morphed into TAAAATS - whatever that stood for...can't remember now - not important in my life these days....
Those days when most of the G/A Charter fleet comprised 8 - 10 seat 'normally aspirated' 402's, PA31's, and the like, which all flew OCTA fairly quickly after departure from Capital City, to destination, and needed multiple aircraft to carry a 'mining crew', were rapidly replaced with Conquests, King Airs and the like, which remained in CTA for much longer portions of the flight, usually until they were 'on descent' and passing FL200.
We went from 'processing' say, 60 or 70 smaller slower aircraft, OCTA for most of their flight to the various mining centres, into 30 or so of the larger, faster types.
And these in turn were replaced by Dash's, FK100's, BA146 etc , all of which can carry the same mining crew in a single aircraft, in CTA until descent....
You get the idea.
The 'good old days' of FS were numbered - we knew that - but we were still providing what was a good service to those aircraft that still flew OCTA.
Now the 'service' is provided by an often overworked ATC person, on the same operational frequency as his separation job, 'when workload permits'....
But, as stated, 40 or so years ago....
Cheers to all who took the time to read so far...
Sorry, but I can't recall the VHF DF project having a 'project name', other than just that of 'VHF DF'.
A unit on the top of our outlet at Mt Canobolas near Orange, NSW, would have been a useful tool, because of the range of that particular VHF site.
Another unit at another adjacent location would have enabled a 'cross reference' of bearings to give a 'fix' perhaps....
I think the idea was to install VHF DF at some 'remote' locations, e.g. Kalgoorlie, Derby, Meeka etc., to assist pilots who may have been 'unsure of their current position' = lost.
It was a 'line of sight' direction only, displayed as a line on a circular CRT with a compass rose around the circumference to give the bearing of the line.
They were available 'off the shelf', and were used in the UK in conjunction with IF 'homing' procedures.
I cannot recall if ATC were going to need them, as most ATC units were located in populated centres, where nav. was not usually the problem.
All superceeded now by GPS....but 40 or so years ago....
I may 'drift' a little here....patience please...
Another 'project' that I had some connection with, was the proposal to install a VHF outlet on top of Mt Bakewell, near York WA.
This would have provided a much improved VHF coverage to the WA wheatbelt generally, and to Cunderdin in particular.
YCUN at the time was a major G/A IFR training location because of its proximity to Perth, and the NDB located there.
Imagine, a 'major' G/A training location only 67nm (if I remember correctly)from Perth International Airport, and, having NIL VHF below a 'good' circuit area altitude!
Aircraft below circuit area altitude, on the ground etc, had to call HF - only 67 nm from Perth.
As all of the required infrastructure, road access, power, TV and Telstra repeater towers etc, was already in place on Bakewell, the projected cost of this VHF installation was 'quoted' at just under $10K.
(You may have been able to provide the equipment for a fraction of this....who knows...)
All of the advantages - for what could be the cost of a 'corporate lunch' (?).... You get the idea.....'Affordable safety' was now in manager's minds....
None of which would have helped poor MDX on that fateful night.
I'm not sure I can assist you much with your book, However, I can ring you sometime, and have a yarn.
These days, the chronological order of sequence of events is a bit 'blurred'.
(Like, I can forget just where I left the car keys, but when I do find them, I still know 'wot they're for'.....)
The 'initial cut' of 12/12/'91 when services to VFR aircraft were deleted, (some may say 'relaxed') did enable rationalisation / consolidation, and 'affordable safety' became the new mantra.
The opportunity to see the 'old public service mentality' dinosaurs depart the service was good as it enabled a leaner meaner more 'flexible' service to be provided. And I was proud to be a part of that.
And therefore it became much cheaper to operate. e.g. Perth Flight Service Centre staff numbers went from something like 138 in '91 to just 38 or so towards the 'end' in December 2000 - as 'aircraft 'movements' became less and we were able to 'combine' adjacent areas to less staff operating those areas..
The closure of the Briefing Offices was a travesty. They were the 'Shop Front Window' where all flight information could be obtained, NOTAMs etc obtained maps / chart purchases made, and a personal briefing obtained if that was required.
Pertinent NOTAM's ONLY - THANKS. Not the pages of drivel we have to sift thru these days....And they also provided a 'meeting point' for pilots to 'interface' with the system - and exchange the rumours of the day...
Now we resort to this site, and what a site it is.
We did 'trial' a thing called 'FISADS' where we typed the dep. point, destination, aircraft time intervals into a computer, and when the aircraft departed, the actual dep. time.
The machine then 'drew' a straight line track and displayed a symbol along that track commensurate with the aircraft's planned position....However, it was in NO WAY 'connected' to the actual track that the aircraft actually flew - just the 'planned' details.
Of limited use.
And it took us longer to enter the info than it did to write the reported actual position on the cardboard Flight Progress Strip, in our abbreviated way, and process it.
It was reported to have cost MILLIONS - and was said to have morphed into TAAAATS - whatever that stood for...can't remember now - not important in my life these days....
Those days when most of the G/A Charter fleet comprised 8 - 10 seat 'normally aspirated' 402's, PA31's, and the like, which all flew OCTA fairly quickly after departure from Capital City, to destination, and needed multiple aircraft to carry a 'mining crew', were rapidly replaced with Conquests, King Airs and the like, which remained in CTA for much longer portions of the flight, usually until they were 'on descent' and passing FL200.
We went from 'processing' say, 60 or 70 smaller slower aircraft, OCTA for most of their flight to the various mining centres, into 30 or so of the larger, faster types.
And these in turn were replaced by Dash's, FK100's, BA146 etc , all of which can carry the same mining crew in a single aircraft, in CTA until descent....
You get the idea.
The 'good old days' of FS were numbered - we knew that - but we were still providing what was a good service to those aircraft that still flew OCTA.
Now the 'service' is provided by an often overworked ATC person, on the same operational frequency as his separation job, 'when workload permits'....
But, as stated, 40 or so years ago....
Cheers to all who took the time to read so far...
And, Hi Aussie Bob,
Many FSO's including myself and others who sometimes post on these pages, were CPL's who did Charter work on their days off.
So when you say 'we as pilots'....t'ain't just you.
Some of us flew in remote areas just about all our flying lives, and appreciated Flight Service and the 'vagaries' of HF radio. It was our 'lifeline'.
The reason I joined FS in the first place was due to a recession in pilot hiring, and my wanting to feed a very understanding wife and two kids...
Then from a very senior FSO in Hedland, 'You can always join FS ya know'....airconditioned office, paid EVERY fortnight'....That was the clincher!!
Still managed to do charters on my days off in various locations....
Cheers Bob.
p.s. and yep! Still enjoying the redundo....and retirement.....
Many FSO's including myself and others who sometimes post on these pages, were CPL's who did Charter work on their days off.
So when you say 'we as pilots'....t'ain't just you.
Some of us flew in remote areas just about all our flying lives, and appreciated Flight Service and the 'vagaries' of HF radio. It was our 'lifeline'.
The reason I joined FS in the first place was due to a recession in pilot hiring, and my wanting to feed a very understanding wife and two kids...
Then from a very senior FSO in Hedland, 'You can always join FS ya know'....airconditioned office, paid EVERY fortnight'....That was the clincher!!
Still managed to do charters on my days off in various locations....
Cheers Bob.
p.s. and yep! Still enjoying the redundo....and retirement.....
Sorry Guys and Gals,
Didn't want to take anything away from Mike's original post, nor from the tragedy of the MDX event.
But to most of the generation of today's pilots, FS was 'WHO? WHAT?'
So, had to make a small explanation and try to answer Dick's query at the same time....
Cheers to all...
Didn't want to take anything away from Mike's original post, nor from the tragedy of the MDX event.
But to most of the generation of today's pilots, FS was 'WHO? WHAT?'
So, had to make a small explanation and try to answer Dick's query at the same time....
Cheers to all...
VHF. DF
