Near miss at Toowoomba
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Near miss at Toowoomba
From the ATSB website.
The ATSB has commenced an investigation into a runway incursion involving a Cessna 172 and a De Havilland DHC-8, at Toowoomba Airport, Queensland, on 28 March 2014.
When on short final for runway 29, the pilot of the Cessna 172 sighted the De Havilland DHC-8 entering the runway. The pilot landed and stopped short of the taxying DHC-8. The crew of both aircraft reported not hearing radio broadcasts from the other aircraft.
When on short final for runway 29, the pilot of the Cessna 172 sighted the De Havilland DHC-8 entering the runway. The pilot landed and stopped short of the taxying DHC-8. The crew of both aircraft reported not hearing radio broadcasts from the other aircraft.
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Questions from the newbie... Radio work aside. Firstly, should the DHC-8 looked for someone on final before entering the taxiway? Assuming here you get a good view from a dash 8?
Second, should the pilot of the 172 done a go around rather than landing? Once again I might be showing some ignorance here, but guessing the reason for not going around would be insufficient time/distance to climb higher than the dash 8?
Not speculating here, rather just inquiring. I like to think that quizzing all this stuff will help to make me a better pilot when I eventually get there.
Second, should the pilot of the 172 done a go around rather than landing? Once again I might be showing some ignorance here, but guessing the reason for not going around would be insufficient time/distance to climb higher than the dash 8?
Not speculating here, rather just inquiring. I like to think that quizzing all this stuff will help to make me a better pilot when I eventually get there.
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should the pilot of the 172 done a go around rather than landing?
insufficient time/distance to climb higher than the dash 8?
The 172 should not have landed. If the 172 had gone around, there would not have been an ATSB incident report lodged.
An engine out with sufficient runway to pull up or nice grass next to the runway to land on would be about the only time I can think off the top of my head to continue an approach onto an occupied runway.
Even if it's somewhere long like Avalon or the Gold Coast where you know you can pull up and get off the runway even in the worst circumstances, go around. For an extra .1 and 10L of fuel you'll avoid the investigation.
Even if it's somewhere long like Avalon or the Gold Coast where you know you can pull up and get off the runway even in the worst circumstances, go around. For an extra .1 and 10L of fuel you'll avoid the investigation.
For an extra .1 and 10L of fuel you'll avoid the investigation.
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If the 172 had gone around, there would not have been an ATSB incident report lodged.
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Aircraft on the runway always has right of way BUT it is polite airmanship to give way to aircraft about to land rather than taxi out in front of them and force a go-around (not suggesting that was what happened). BUT it is not always easy to see small light aircraft - especially without radio 'alert' and from inside a busy cockpit/environmental factors etc - don't assume the other guy is going to see you and wait for you... Beggars belief that the aircraft on short final didn't go around...
Aircraft on the runway always has right of way BUT it is polite airmanship to give way to aircraft about to land rather than taxi out in front of them and force a go-around
If an aircraft is on final you don't enter the runway.
Before anyone jumps on me and states that a 747 would not be at TWB, it is just an example.
'Nomady' adding to '601' above. I think you maybe misguided there with that belief (A/C on rwy has ROW) in this case. The better statement would have been you can't land (unless in an Emerg) on a Rwy already occupied & not by just an A/C either. Obviously the lightie had ROW due his position in the circuit.
Obviously both pilots would not have done this deliberately (well we hope not anyway) so either there was some misunderstanding re where who was or what some intentions where or the Dash simply didn't see the lightie on short final. We don't know the exact details here there could have been sun-glare (if it was daylight I haven't read the report as yet), could have been inadequate R/T proc's.
I'd like to think that the Lightie driver will be more at the ready to go around rather than land if he/she comes across this another time.
We all learn & it's when we stop learning that it becomes very dangerous.
Wmk2
Obviously both pilots would not have done this deliberately (well we hope not anyway) so either there was some misunderstanding re where who was or what some intentions where or the Dash simply didn't see the lightie on short final. We don't know the exact details here there could have been sun-glare (if it was daylight I haven't read the report as yet), could have been inadequate R/T proc's.
I'd like to think that the Lightie driver will be more at the ready to go around rather than land if he/she comes across this another time.
We all learn & it's when we stop learning that it becomes very dangerous.
Wmk2
Sounds like the DHC-8 was lining up at the other end at Rwy 11. Had it been entering Rwy 29, the report would be talking about a near collision or near miss and the first officer should have seen the 172 looming large in his side window.
When I am on short finals I am focussed on the threshold steady in the windscreen and my airspeed. The other end of the runway, 1341m away, would be in my peripheral vision and would not be noticed in detail until focussing on it in the flare and hold-off, if then.
Also remember there is the infamous hump in the middle of the runway at Toowoomba, making aircraft potentially lining up to face each other invisible from each end.
To state the obvious, someone has probably been on the wrong frequency, or had the volume turned down.
When I am on short finals I am focussed on the threshold steady in the windscreen and my airspeed. The other end of the runway, 1341m away, would be in my peripheral vision and would not be noticed in detail until focussing on it in the flare and hold-off, if then.
Also remember there is the infamous hump in the middle of the runway at Toowoomba, making aircraft potentially lining up to face each other invisible from each end.
To state the obvious, someone has probably been on the wrong frequency, or had the volume turned down.
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The report clearly says that the 172 sighted the Dash 8 entering the runway. It couldn't be any clearer; therefore the 172 should not have landed. It couldn't be more simple. It will be interesting when we read in several months (years) what actually happened 
Guilders - let me get this straight, you need a reference for this ? 
Not necessarily, but probable. The holding point Alpha-3 for 29 is perhaps 270 metres from the start of the keys and by the time the Dash 8 rolled onto the runway and lined up (presuming they weren't backtracking, it would be well over 300 metres). Unlikely, but stranger things have happened 
Captain Nomad says: Aircraft on the runway always has right of way
Guilders says; Captain Nomad; mind confirming your quote with a reference?
Possum1 says: Sounds like the DHC-8 was lining up at the other end at Rwy 11. Had it been entering Rwy 29, the report would be talking about a near collision or near miss and the first officer should have seen the 172 looming large in his side window.
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However an aircraft can't land if some muppet enters the runway while you're on final!
Originally Posted by XXX
Captain Nomad says: Aircraft on the runway always has right of way
Guilders says; Captain Nomad; mind confirming your quote with a reference?
Listen for the Beepback!! Not that they are really important...the one at Learmonth has been out of service for 12 months now...
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I just managed to accidently close my reply window where I had posted a few relevant references. Couldn't be bothered doing it again. Maybe I didn't word my first post very well so if you want to argue technicalities you might want to trot out:
CAR162
(8) An aircraft that is about to take‑off shall not attempt to do so until there is no apparent risk of collision with other aircraft.
But in reverse, if you want to try landing on an occupied runway and claim you had right of way and have done nothing wrong - go ahead "Make my day!"
Initiating 'squirm' manoeuvre...!
CAR162
(8) An aircraft that is about to take‑off shall not attempt to do so until there is no apparent risk of collision with other aircraft.
But in reverse, if you want to try landing on an occupied runway and claim you had right of way and have done nothing wrong - go ahead "Make my day!"
Initiating 'squirm' manoeuvre...!
CN, check 3 subparas up:
(5) An aircraft in flight, or operating on the ground or water, shall give way to other aircraft landing or on final approach to land.
Continue squirming!
(5) An aircraft in flight, or operating on the ground or water, shall give way to other aircraft landing or on final approach to land.
Continue squirming!
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AIP ENR1.1 ss48.5.6
When on the final leg, confirm that the runway is clear for landing...
And if it is not - go ahead and land anyway 'cos you have right of way...!
When on the final leg, confirm that the runway is clear for landing...
And if it is not - go ahead and land anyway 'cos you have right of way...!