How to thread drift in 720 posts!!!
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Champion do not tell you NOT to test their resistance for two reasons; You should be doing what they (not their competitor) tell you to maintain their plugs and if you buy another $70 plug because you didn't that is their gain.
They have head buried in the sand on this and some other more serious matters that will not be discussed openly here.
Once discovered, it is obvious. A bit like fairies in your garden, they do not exist. Until you discover they do. Then what?
I would not have believed it several years ago. But data is hard to argue with, especially when a bunch is collected by yourself. I have never found one engine yet that runs smoother with high resistance plugs. Not one.
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Interesting comments like you can change any thing, Once again costing into view here as in why did you change that plug for its got plenty of meat on it left. Champion state that when the plug is half worn its U/S. Generally before this you don't have any problems with plugs. Now one thing you half all missed that when a mag fires it has multiple discharge, It is not one spark but several. Also you have positive spark and negative sparks, this means that it fires from and to the centre electrode and this gives different wear patens. 4 cly engines a plug will not change per cylinder. Meaning that #1 cly will be a positive spark and #2 will be a negative. Now a 6Cly each time the plug fires it will be different one fire pos and the next will be neg and this gives a more even wear on the plug.
Next thing is if you follow the manufacture advice and have you mags and plugs change and serviced you really don't have a problem.
As for gapping you can gap both types of plugs period.
Now depending on the operation of the aircraft what engine it is there are variables to everything . The worse plugs for fouling I've found is training aircraft.
As for anyone being able to say that they can feel an engine with high gaps I truly find this hard to believe what was the engine ? The only way I know anyone can do that was on the large radial engine s that had oscilloscopes and the really good flight engines could pick which plug it was on a 28 cly, before my time but can remember story's and reading about it as a an apprentice
Next thing is if you follow the manufacture advice and have you mags and plugs change and serviced you really don't have a problem.
As for gapping you can gap both types of plugs period.
Now depending on the operation of the aircraft what engine it is there are variables to everything . The worse plugs for fouling I've found is training aircraft.
As for anyone being able to say that they can feel an engine with high gaps I truly find this hard to believe what was the engine ? The only way I know anyone can do that was on the large radial engine s that had oscilloscopes and the really good flight engines could pick which plug it was on a 28 cly, before my time but can remember story's and reading about it as a an apprentice
Now one thing you half all missed that when a mag fires it has multiple discharge, It is not one spark but several. ...
... Also you have positive spark and negative sparks, this means that it fires from and to the centre electrode and this gives different wear patens. 4 cly engines a plug will not change per cylinder. Meaning that #1 cly will be a positive spark and #2 will be a negative. Now a 6Cly each time the plug fires it will be different one fire pos and the next will be neg and this gives a more even wear on the plug. ...
... Next thing is if you follow the manufacture advice and have you mags and plugs change and serviced you really don't have a problem. ...
As for gapping you can gap both types of plugs period.
Now depending on the operation of the aircraft what engine it is there are variables to everything . The worse plugs for fouling I've found is training aircraft.
... As for anyone being able to say that they can feel an engine with high gaps I truly find this hard to believe what was the engine ? The only way I know anyone can do that was on the large radial engine s that had oscilloscopes and the really good flight engines could pick which plug it was on a 28 cly, before my time but can remember story's and reading about it as a an apprentice/
You can do it the other way around: Collect some plugs with magic resistors that measure high or open resistance on a standard low voltage multimeter. Find an engine that's performing well. Change the plugs with the one's you've collected (after cleaning and gapping). Go fly. (Not my engine, please).
Jabba will probably chip in with his experience.
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mmmm cream puff.
Ever heard of the hi performance ignition systems used in the aftermarket car industry. Its called MSD do you know why its called that. It multiply spark discharge. Its used to simulate a magneto.
I would have you have a look at the LAME syllabus and do some reading. A magneto has a multiply spark.
Ok the second ignition system is totally independent of each other, and propagates a more compete burn and a more even burn across the piston head. Also a redundant system which is it primary use.
Next thing is also is the mixture in the burn the leaner the mixture the slower the burn, the richer the mixture the faster the burn.
Basic LAME training.
As for breaking a plug well you can break any thing if you wish but you can also not break any thing. It would seam you possibly no more than your LAME may be you should change your profession ?
There are no one answer for any problem the rules are not always universal for any aircraft.
Cheers
Ever heard of the hi performance ignition systems used in the aftermarket car industry. Its called MSD do you know why its called that. It multiply spark discharge. Its used to simulate a magneto.
I would have you have a look at the LAME syllabus and do some reading. A magneto has a multiply spark.
Ok the second ignition system is totally independent of each other, and propagates a more compete burn and a more even burn across the piston head. Also a redundant system which is it primary use.
Next thing is also is the mixture in the burn the leaner the mixture the slower the burn, the richer the mixture the faster the burn.
Basic LAME training.
As for breaking a plug well you can break any thing if you wish but you can also not break any thing. It would seam you possibly no more than your LAME may be you should change your profession ?
There are no one answer for any problem the rules are not always universal for any aircraft.
Cheers
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cream puff you say
True. It's also true that any manufacturer of any product occasionally has quality control problems and produces bad batches
Sorry this is totally incorrect.
Aircraft servicing is a preventative engineering process. This means we repair replace etc before it breaks or fails. Hence a in this instance we change plugs a the manufacture's recommendation's and have the magneto serviced at the 500 hrly inspection period as per manufactures service period instuctions.
If there is a bad batch then this is taken up else where, ie SB, MSB. AD etc etc
True. It's also true that any manufacturer of any product occasionally has quality control problems and produces bad batches
Sorry this is totally incorrect.
Aircraft servicing is a preventative engineering process. This means we repair replace etc before it breaks or fails. Hence a in this instance we change plugs a the manufacture's recommendation's and have the magneto serviced at the 500 hrly inspection period as per manufactures service period instuctions.
If there is a bad batch then this is taken up else where, ie SB, MSB. AD etc etc
Me? I'm just a wheel-chair bound geek from Hicksville USA. Flying machines scare me and engines are dirty!
So how many of those "hi performance ignition systems used in the aftermarket car industry" have you seen fitted to GA piston engines during your 34 years of hands-on GA piston engine experience? In round figures.
So how many of those "hi performance ignition systems used in the aftermarket car industry" have you seen fitted to GA piston engines during your 34 years of hands-on GA piston engine experience? In round figures.
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Well Cream puff
In Australia we would call you a ******** take it which ever way you like. You didn't answer the question so how long have you been in aviation for a start.
As for fitting a MSD unit you really showing your disregard for your own intellicahnce. Like I said it what MSD stands for there was no intent to say it is fitted to aircraft. However there are some units that can now be fitted to home build aircraft which are similar. Although they still use one magneto.
The Porsche engine used in the mooney hover dint use magnetos from memory but had dual independent ignition systems. This was a complex engine management system, Rotax also have a similar system although not as complex.
So as for fitting a MSD no I have not fitted one to any aircraft. But if you can read what I said and what it stands for then do some rescrach into magnetos.
Also the most powerful internal combustion engines a 10000hp top fuel nitro or funny car engine or so use magnetos that are made by guess who MSD
In Australia we would call you a ******** take it which ever way you like. You didn't answer the question so how long have you been in aviation for a start.
As for fitting a MSD unit you really showing your disregard for your own intellicahnce. Like I said it what MSD stands for there was no intent to say it is fitted to aircraft. However there are some units that can now be fitted to home build aircraft which are similar. Although they still use one magneto.
The Porsche engine used in the mooney hover dint use magnetos from memory but had dual independent ignition systems. This was a complex engine management system, Rotax also have a similar system although not as complex.
So as for fitting a MSD no I have not fitted one to any aircraft. But if you can read what I said and what it stands for then do some rescrach into magnetos.
Also the most powerful internal combustion engines a 10000hp top fuel nitro or funny car engine or so use magnetos that are made by guess who MSD
No, that won't do at all, yr right.
It was you who cited "hi performance ignition systems used in the aftermarket car industry" as the basis for your assertion that magnetos fitted to GA piston engines deliver multiple sparks. You could be correct (I very much doubt it), but if you are it won't be on the basis of what aftermarket car ignitions happen to do. Do you have any actual data or credible reference to cast doubt on the veracity of the trace at figure 1.0 at the link in my post at #26?
And you clearly spend very little time, if any, behind a GA piston engine on which your life depends. If you did, you'd know that occasionally manufacturers' commercial interests influence their recommendations and willingness to 'own' problems. (In that regard they are lot like engineers: Problems with engines are always caused by pilot mismanagement and never by poor design, poor manufacture, poor fitment or ham-fisted maintenance. Just ask the manufacturers and the engineers... )
And if you'd spent any real time behind a GA piston engine on which your life depends, you'd also know how plug problems manifest themselves in the air. Most of the plugs I've ditched were ditched due to actual, in-air problems, and those plugs were within manufacturer's specification and tested OK on the bench on the ground.
I'm sure you have many, many years of experience yr right, just like Trent 972. It's just that it's been the same year, over and over again.
It was you who cited "hi performance ignition systems used in the aftermarket car industry" as the basis for your assertion that magnetos fitted to GA piston engines deliver multiple sparks. You could be correct (I very much doubt it), but if you are it won't be on the basis of what aftermarket car ignitions happen to do. Do you have any actual data or credible reference to cast doubt on the veracity of the trace at figure 1.0 at the link in my post at #26?
And you clearly spend very little time, if any, behind a GA piston engine on which your life depends. If you did, you'd know that occasionally manufacturers' commercial interests influence their recommendations and willingness to 'own' problems. (In that regard they are lot like engineers: Problems with engines are always caused by pilot mismanagement and never by poor design, poor manufacture, poor fitment or ham-fisted maintenance. Just ask the manufacturers and the engineers... )
And if you'd spent any real time behind a GA piston engine on which your life depends, you'd also know how plug problems manifest themselves in the air. Most of the plugs I've ditched were ditched due to actual, in-air problems, and those plugs were within manufacturer's specification and tested OK on the bench on the ground.
I'm sure you have many, many years of experience yr right, just like Trent 972. It's just that it's been the same year, over and over again.
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Cream Puff you are a dill.
As an engineer I cant go above or beyond what the manufacture says. So end story.
They say 1 and I go 2 then you have an accident then you sue me then what grounds do I have,
Industry behind a piston engine, well my dad has over 20000 hours is that enough for you, like I said before I wont place a pilot or anyone I wont fly in my self. Never had a problem with a commercial pilot.
Sorry I guess if you have so much time on your hand you do some research on aircraft ignition systems and then learn a bout "E" gap but I guess you already know about that.
As an engineer I cant go above or beyond what the manufacture says. So end story.
They say 1 and I go 2 then you have an accident then you sue me then what grounds do I have,
Industry behind a piston engine, well my dad has over 20000 hours is that enough for you, like I said before I wont place a pilot or anyone I wont fly in my self. Never had a problem with a commercial pilot.
Sorry I guess if you have so much time on your hand you do some research on aircraft ignition systems and then learn a bout "E" gap but I guess you already know about that.
I see your point now.
Because I'm a dill and my brother grows elderberries, that proves there's nothing wrong with some resistors in some spark plugs.
Gotcha!
Yep, I know nothing about E gaps. I don't own a Unison T150 "E" gap gauge, which isn't part of my T-100 Assembly and Timing Kit and I've never used it in accordance with L-1363.
Because I'm a dill and my brother grows elderberries, that proves there's nothing wrong with some resistors in some spark plugs.
Gotcha!
Yep, I know nothing about E gaps. I don't own a Unison T150 "E" gap gauge, which isn't part of my T-100 Assembly and Timing Kit and I've never used it in accordance with L-1363.
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Cream Puff
Great so please for you. I guess champion etc put them in so that you have some thing to complain about and know other reason spend all that time and energy and money for no reason at all
Great so please for you. I guess champion etc put them in so that you have some thing to complain about and know other reason spend all that time and energy and money for no reason at all
So anyway ...
The little slug on the left is the magic resistor under discussion. The thing in the middle is an old plug.
(And the shiny gadget to the right of the plug is not a Unison T150 "E" gap gauge, which isn't part of my T-100 Assembly and Timing Kit and I've never used it in accordance with L-1363.)
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We'll done a pic of a plug with a broken resistor. Only time you see it if you drop and break that plug. Think you will find it's main use is radio surpesion. Not 100% sure on that though. Do remember reading about it some time back. Like I've said earlier if you change your plugs regular they really don't give much trouble.
It's all in the detail.
Btw cream puff I use to sent aircraft in the middle of aust and never had a problem this was we on top of our planes and pilots. Might won't to have a look what's in the middle of aust and see what support is there. See it cost an awful lot to send an engineer on a break down here. It would seam if you are having trouble it may be something else wrong with you machine
Cheers
It's all in the detail.
Btw cream puff I use to sent aircraft in the middle of aust and never had a problem this was we on top of our planes and pilots. Might won't to have a look what's in the middle of aust and see what support is there. See it cost an awful lot to send an engineer on a break down here. It would seam if you are having trouble it may be something else wrong with you machine
Cheers
Whatever experience you may have, you haven't learnt much about bog standard Champion plugs.
You don't have to drop and break one to get the resistor out. You just unscrew the grub screw that holds it in.
The resistor in the picture isn't 'broken' in the physical sense. That's exactly the size and shape they are when they leave the factory. However, the one in the picture has a problem you can't see.
You don't have to drop and break one to get the resistor out. You just unscrew the grub screw that holds it in.
The resistor in the picture isn't 'broken' in the physical sense. That's exactly the size and shape they are when they leave the factory. However, the one in the picture has a problem you can't see.
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Guys, don't know a lot about exactly what makes what happen with the spark system in exacting scientific detail, although I try to educate myself as much as I can on what makes an engine tick over nicely and what to look for in engine data to try and keep ahead of issues.
However I would like to share from experience in looking after our small fleet doing 3,000 to 4,000 hours a year combined, mostly all LOP and how spark plug health seems to effect our operations.
I read an article (about 5 years ago) on maintaining a good spark it made good sence and straight away I told our engineers to switch all aircraft at their next 100 hrly to all tempest fine wire plugs and every 100 hrly there after every plug was to be resistance checked and to throw away anything over 5,000 oms resistance.
It was an expensive exercise to change all plugs and the engineers thought I had lost it however within 6 months a few things happened that stood out. The aircraft average time of line dropped, our mag issues went away and we could get even lower average fuel burns LOP.
So don't acactly know the science behind why the mags are running happier although I have my suspicions but the bottom line is we seem to have much happier, efficient engines.
Maybe someone can touch on how plug health is related to mag health. The expense of switching to all fine wire and chucking what appears to be perfectly good plugs has been offset by sweet running mags and no more premature mag overhauls.
I maybe wrong but that's just what my data shows.
However I would like to share from experience in looking after our small fleet doing 3,000 to 4,000 hours a year combined, mostly all LOP and how spark plug health seems to effect our operations.
I read an article (about 5 years ago) on maintaining a good spark it made good sence and straight away I told our engineers to switch all aircraft at their next 100 hrly to all tempest fine wire plugs and every 100 hrly there after every plug was to be resistance checked and to throw away anything over 5,000 oms resistance.
It was an expensive exercise to change all plugs and the engineers thought I had lost it however within 6 months a few things happened that stood out. The aircraft average time of line dropped, our mag issues went away and we could get even lower average fuel burns LOP.
So don't acactly know the science behind why the mags are running happier although I have my suspicions but the bottom line is we seem to have much happier, efficient engines.
Maybe someone can touch on how plug health is related to mag health. The expense of switching to all fine wire and chucking what appears to be perfectly good plugs has been offset by sweet running mags and no more premature mag overhauls.
I maybe wrong but that's just what my data shows.
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Mick
well im not quite sure exactly what to say, but when you have a closed fleet and you can manage and use the information that you can get from trending your engines you can make changes and monitor your changes in a positive or a negative. So by changing your plugs what else did you do..
Trending your engine wether turbine or piston is such an important tool. You are able to develop a knowledge of your machine and make changes to your fleet accordingly, use properly you will have a much more reliability.
I will just say well done
cheers.
well im not quite sure exactly what to say, but when you have a closed fleet and you can manage and use the information that you can get from trending your engines you can make changes and monitor your changes in a positive or a negative. So by changing your plugs what else did you do..
Trending your engine wether turbine or piston is such an important tool. You are able to develop a knowledge of your machine and make changes to your fleet accordingly, use properly you will have a much more reliability.
I will just say well done
cheers.