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Who pays after SAR?

Old 25th Mar 2014, 02:19
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Who pays after SAR?

Now that we are are out of the SAR phase and into the investigation phase, which would include attempting to locate wreckage, who funds it?
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 02:49
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Since the accident site is most likely in the Australian FIR, does the ATSB get the hot seat?
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 05:20
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That they do
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 05:26
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It's going to be a long and expensive business.
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 05:29
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Would the investigation not belong to the country of origin if crashed in international waters and then they may choose to ask Australia for example if they need ours or the NTSB's assistance? Seems logical, however does airspace ownership over-ride something on the bottom of the ocean?

Australian FIR:

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Old 25th Mar 2014, 08:53
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who owns the SAR zone

Australia pays (Fed Gov't) because its our SAR zone. That's the international convention.
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 09:03
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As I suspected Australia has just announced that it has handed the investigation back to Malaysia.

As we are not in SAR phase because there is no rescue, Australia is therefore no longer responsible for the recovery of the wreckage or the investigation.
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 09:27
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So XXX.....We have more than likely spent millions on the search...do you think the Malay government will reimburse us?
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 09:40
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So XXX.....We have more than likely spent millions on the search...do you think the Malay government will reimburse us?
This sort of crap comes up anytime there is an extended search for anything or anyone.

1. We already own the aircraft
2. The military boys are already being paid
3. The military boys have gotten some very good training in a real life exercise
4. The hours flown per year on the Orion may not change that much

If it was your loved ones would you want a search? Get over it.
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 09:50
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Aussie Bob

Agree.

Especially these two. I was thinking of both of these over the last few days.

3. The military boys have gotten some very good training in a real life exercise
4. The hours flown per year on the Orion may not change that much


Everyone, from AMSA, everyone at RAAF Base Pearce, the head honchos in the ADF, all will have got a heap of good training out of this that you couldn't replicate in an exercise, even an international one.
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 10:02
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I had a feeling you military guys will be sensitive on this issue and I totally agree on the fact that it has been an excellent excuse for an excercise.....
However my question remains. What can we expect from the Malaysian Government as a thank you since they have totally failed in their part of the search?
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 10:05
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What sort of money has been spent on this - using Aussie assets

3 AP3 orions doing rotations daily
A number of G5's (4 i believe) doing some substantial amount of flying (1 aircraft has done 47 hours in a number of days)

Dornier 328 with amsa wasn't tasked given the distance however skytraders took the 319 out on multiple sorties
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 10:05
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The opening poster asked about the "investigation." Logically it belongs to Malaysia.

Search and rescue belongs to us, however we are happy to have help.

This was a Search and Rescue; the search in terms of SAR is complete and there will be no rescue, so Australia's responsibilities have ended.

I never suggested we shouldn't search and I don't agree with the chestnut that the planes were airborne anyway. Perhaps a ship or two or maybe one plane may have been up or out, but not 90% of our airborne RAAF SAR fleet.
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 10:19
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There is an obligation to do the right thing, and it looks like it's being done very well.

The whole operation shines a very positive light on the ADF and shows us working well with neighbours, including Malaysia and China. Bet none of the ADF people thought they'd ever being flying alongside the Chinese!

Interestingly, the Mad Monk was taking about cutting the ATSB by 20% a couple of weeks ago. I guess this will be the biggest and most complex investigation by the ATSB ever and they'll need a heap of extra budget.
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 11:16
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I guess this will be the biggest and most complex investigation by the ATSB ever and they'll need a heap of extra budget.
PeterC your powers of observation astound me. As per the post above and the multiple government announcements tonight, the investigation has been handed back to Malaysia - there won't be an ATSB investigation.
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 11:30
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At least the Chinese got photos of both YPPH and YPEA!
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 11:44
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Peter, get your genius cadet son onto the investigation. It will be over long before they recover the orange box.
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 17:46
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The probable location is outside Australian territorial waters (12 mile limit) regardless of whose FIR or SAR region it is in. Therefore under ICAO rules this now falls to the State of Registration (Malaysia) to conduct the investigation the ATSB is NOT the lead agency and has no right of participation.

Annex 13 Section 5.3 is the standard:

5.3 When the location of the accident or the serious incident cannot definitely be established as being in the territory of any State, the State of Registry shall institute and conduct any necessary investigation of the accident or serious incident. However, it may delegate the whole or any part of the investigation to another State by mutual arrangement and consent.
Only 2 other States have rights of participation, the USA (Design / Manufacture of the airframe) and the UK (design / manufacture of the engines)

That said Malaysia can call on Australian assistance and probably will in relation to wreckage search and recovery.

5.3.1 States nearest the scene of an accident in international waters shall provide such assistance as they are able and shall, likewise, respond to requests by the State of Registry.
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 18:10
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SMS
"What can we expect from the Malaysian Government as a thank you since they have totally failed in their part of the search?"

Failed where ?

Where we are looking now or where they were looking ?


Where we are looking now, it is our responsibility but was wondering why no Malaysian aircraft were sent although could understand that they might be tied up elsewhere.


It has been superb to see everyone come together so quickly and seamlessly, although I am sure someone was tearing hear out at some stage Great experience all round and as someone said, who would have thought they'd be flying in a Chinese military aircraft ?
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Old 25th Mar 2014, 18:50
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This subject always comes up after a very public search and rescue operation.

For the record, I believe SAR is covered by a "knock for knock" agreement, Australians who get rescued at sea by other nations aren't charged either.

The only exception I am aware of is some American ski resorts who will hand you a very large bill if you ski off piste and they have to come and find you.
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