MERGED: Skydivers Feared Dead In Light Plane Crash Caboolture
Thanks roundsounds, have done a reasonable amount of skydive time as well and have experienced the odd trim (overlooked) in the 185. Gets your attention the first time it happens but easily controlled. Flown the 206 a bit, but not on skydive ops.
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What can catch you out is not resetting the elevator trim following a landing with 1 up. (...) If not reset before takeoff with a full load the control loads are very high
Blatant Liar - firstly, I am not presuming anything with this operator in regards to their use or non-use of checklists, however have you ever flown with people who do not use written checklists both in either private or commercial world? I have, it's not that uncommon.
Checklists via memory only have items often forgotten. Flow procedures will occasionally forget something, but a written checklist will pick them up. However sometimes in a rush people will even miss things on written checklist because they are in a rush, they've done the same thing hundreds of times before and see what they expect/want to see, not what is actually on display in front of them.
I also like your generic checklist. Trims aren't the first pre-takeoff item on mine. Maybe I should adjust my approved check system to something less dumb?
Poor buggers.
I remember seeing the FaRT plane up FNQ back in the day.
Checklists via memory only have items often forgotten. Flow procedures will occasionally forget something, but a written checklist will pick them up. However sometimes in a rush people will even miss things on written checklist because they are in a rush, they've done the same thing hundreds of times before and see what they expect/want to see, not what is actually on display in front of them.
I also like your generic checklist. Trims aren't the first pre-takeoff item on mine. Maybe I should adjust my approved check system to something less dumb?
Poor buggers.
I remember seeing the FaRT plane up FNQ back in the day.
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I fly out of caboolture regurlarly, anyone know if it was the usual Female jump pilot?
If she is the one I think you mean she flies the C182.
I am with Ramrod.....checklists, either flow or a literal list require discipline. The flow is often better, and prior to rolling a "Killer item" check.
I doubt this is related to the accident. Perhaps an item not on any list I have ever seen now needs to be.
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It's been 12 hours since the news and I'm still shocked. Absolutely floored. Pilot was my best friend and training buddy from SPL to CPL. He will be greatly missed by many.
So sorry to hear that Pyro, at this point we can only hope that something is learnt and in doing so other lives are saved, it's never good when a fellow Pilot loses their life in such a way, it's even worse when we don't know why or how it can be prevented in future. Take heart, the thoughts of us all are behind those who were close, we might backstab each other for a job but in such situations, in my experience, we rally together as a community and do whatever we can to ease the burden of those affected.
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Mick B, that is a horrible thought, I have goosebumps as I type. But you know after the C208 attack down the coast a bit, it is a valid question to ask.
As Pyro said, nice young lad, and yes I watched these two young men go through the ropes at YCAB, recently had many a yarn at the fuel pump. I do hope they find conclusive evidence of what went wrong.
I did not see it, buts several of my friends did, and the investigations have had them on site all day. I doubt the field will be open today either.
W8, mate, this is nothing at all to do with CASA. Qld police determine it a crime scene as 5 people are dead, and it was definately not from natural causes of old age. A coronial report will follow and QPS control the site. They do not know that it was not a criminal act, as pointed out above, so the only way to preserve the site, and stop me from getting back to my own hangar is to declare the whole field and the street a crime scene.
Nothing to do with CASA....save the criticism for when/where it is due.
As Pyro said, nice young lad, and yes I watched these two young men go through the ropes at YCAB, recently had many a yarn at the fuel pump. I do hope they find conclusive evidence of what went wrong.
I did not see it, buts several of my friends did, and the investigations have had them on site all day. I doubt the field will be open today either.
W8, mate, this is nothing at all to do with CASA. Qld police determine it a crime scene as 5 people are dead, and it was definately not from natural causes of old age. A coronial report will follow and QPS control the site. They do not know that it was not a criminal act, as pointed out above, so the only way to preserve the site, and stop me from getting back to my own hangar is to declare the whole field and the street a crime scene.
Nothing to do with CASA....save the criticism for when/where it is due.
Jabba
Several claimed eyewitnesses are reported as saying they heard a couple of loud bangs before the aircraft impacted with the ground. Is that consistent with what locals are telling you?
Several claimed eyewitnesses are reported as saying they heard a couple of loud bangs before the aircraft impacted with the ground. Is that consistent with what locals are telling you?
I was down at the western hangars in an elevated position and heard a backfire sounding bang, then a huge rpm increase and then a 'thud'. I started to look in that direction when I heard the rpm, assuming it would be a simple back fire. I happened to see the very last moment as it impacted and saw the flames.
Ran downstairs, grabbed two extinguishers then drove over as quickly as possible, stopping to pick a couple of blokes up who were running over to help.
When we got there, two other guys had just started to try and put it out and as we readied the extinguishers, racing over to help when something exploded inside the wreckage that sent quite a bit of shrapnel over our heads. It was at that stage decided it was too dangerous. The firies got their in quite good time.
I can't believe there were five people inside that wreckage.
R.I.P.
Ran downstairs, grabbed two extinguishers then drove over as quickly as possible, stopping to pick a couple of blokes up who were running over to help.
When we got there, two other guys had just started to try and put it out and as we readied the extinguishers, racing over to help when something exploded inside the wreckage that sent quite a bit of shrapnel over our heads. It was at that stage decided it was too dangerous. The firies got their in quite good time.
I can't believe there were five people inside that wreckage.
R.I.P.
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Jaba and others - If you were a witness to the event, get some time alone and recall clearly what you saw and heard, and write it down in detail, forgetting nothing.
You know you'll be questioned as part of the investigation, it's important to set in stone what you saw and heard, before too much time elapses, and other events start to intrude on the memories.
What makes it worse, is that much time elapses before coroners hearings and perhaps even lawsuits occur, thus making the potential for your memory to forget important small things.
If you do happen to become ensnared as a witness in a lawsuit (God forbid), aggressive lawyers will try and make you see and hear things you didn't hear or see, and thus put doubt in your mind.
Having a written witness observation to refer to, put down on paper from the day or two after the event, helps to ensure that no-one can put doubt into your mind over the sequence of events, or what you actually saw or heard.
You know you'll be questioned as part of the investigation, it's important to set in stone what you saw and heard, before too much time elapses, and other events start to intrude on the memories.
What makes it worse, is that much time elapses before coroners hearings and perhaps even lawsuits occur, thus making the potential for your memory to forget important small things.
If you do happen to become ensnared as a witness in a lawsuit (God forbid), aggressive lawyers will try and make you see and hear things you didn't hear or see, and thus put doubt in your mind.
Having a written witness observation to refer to, put down on paper from the day or two after the event, helps to ensure that no-one can put doubt into your mind over the sequence of events, or what you actually saw or heard.
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Jabba and the YCAB community,
My condolences to each and all of you who have had the misfortune to have been exposed to this tragedy. Regrettably this is something that will most likely remain with you for the rest of your lives so make sure that you do the best you can to manage the memory of what you have seen. If you haven't already done so take the advice of one track and somehow make an independent record of what you saw, heard, etc. No doubt the QPS and ATSB will be in contact with you sooner rather than later and your assistance will be a big help. Stay well, stay strong and stay safe...
Stiky
My condolences to each and all of you who have had the misfortune to have been exposed to this tragedy. Regrettably this is something that will most likely remain with you for the rest of your lives so make sure that you do the best you can to manage the memory of what you have seen. If you haven't already done so take the advice of one track and somehow make an independent record of what you saw, heard, etc. No doubt the QPS and ATSB will be in contact with you sooner rather than later and your assistance will be a big help. Stay well, stay strong and stay safe...
Stiky
+1 for the full written statement.
I have only been involved with the coroner once but it was 5 years after the event (!). Before I appeared before the coroner the NSW Police provided me with my written statement from the day following the event and I was amazed how much detail I had recorded there that I had subsequently forgotten.
Write it all down.
Vale to the victims
I have only been involved with the coroner once but it was 5 years after the event (!). Before I appeared before the coroner the NSW Police provided me with my written statement from the day following the event and I was amazed how much detail I had recorded there that I had subsequently forgotten.
Write it all down.
Vale to the victims
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I concur. Having written it all down as soon as possible it removes the doubt that you are 'reconstructing' rather than 'recalling' at a later date. Having done that, give thought to your own wellbeing and consult help because you will have flashbacks. It's sad for everyone involved.
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Creamie, that is entirely possible.
The backfires people refer to are actually AFTER-FIRES in the exhaust, and the very plausible explanation is this. And remember the witness report I have is the plane pitched violently upwards as these sounds changed/happened.
Seat slides back on rail, or perhaps as has been seen before, the seat is not located on all points on the rail and it has slid back due to not being fully latched in.
Pilot has fist full of control column and throttle, so with rapid rearward movement, the natural tendency is to hang on and pull forward. This gives rise to a rapid pitch up and a rapid throttle closure.
The pitch up followed by stall spin is easy to imagine.
The rapid closing of throttle, with a TCM IO550 which this plane had, now has a fuel pump turning at 2700RPM and full rich and all of a sudden a rapid closure of throttle and air, but fuel still being sprayed into the intake port, overly rich mixture does not produce power and is expelled and igniting in the exhaust.
Then allegedly there was a recovery of engine (may be some conjecture here but I am not 100% sure) so an attempt to restore power perhaps, but it is all too late.
Now, do not take this to the bank as a "case closed" explanation. But the reports I have had, along with known things that can and do happen make this a highly likely scenario.
I am sure time will tell. If there was a genuine engine failure, this should come out in the subsequent inspection.
The backfires people refer to are actually AFTER-FIRES in the exhaust, and the very plausible explanation is this. And remember the witness report I have is the plane pitched violently upwards as these sounds changed/happened.
Seat slides back on rail, or perhaps as has been seen before, the seat is not located on all points on the rail and it has slid back due to not being fully latched in.
Pilot has fist full of control column and throttle, so with rapid rearward movement, the natural tendency is to hang on and pull forward. This gives rise to a rapid pitch up and a rapid throttle closure.
The pitch up followed by stall spin is easy to imagine.
The rapid closing of throttle, with a TCM IO550 which this plane had, now has a fuel pump turning at 2700RPM and full rich and all of a sudden a rapid closure of throttle and air, but fuel still being sprayed into the intake port, overly rich mixture does not produce power and is expelled and igniting in the exhaust.
Then allegedly there was a recovery of engine (may be some conjecture here but I am not 100% sure) so an attempt to restore power perhaps, but it is all too late.
Now, do not take this to the bank as a "case closed" explanation. But the reports I have had, along with known things that can and do happen make this a highly likely scenario.
I am sure time will tell. If there was a genuine engine failure, this should come out in the subsequent inspection.
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The Australian Transport Safety Bureau is looking for any witnesses who saw yesterday’s tragic Caboolture plane crash.
Anyone with information is being urged to contact the ATSB on 1800 020 616.
The Australian Transport Safety Bureau is looking for any witnesses who saw yesterday’s tragic Caboolture plane crash.
Anyone with information is being urged to contact the ATSB on 1800 020 616.
Sounds like a very plausible theory Jabba. I know with the 185 (before free Cessna seat stop was available) I would have the seat lock in behind seat, leave chair type pilots rig on the seat and never had to move the seat to get in and out. Regardless of the cause, it is probably a good thing to do if you can in Cessna type aircraft anyway, just one less thing to go wrong.
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Theory
Re: the seat pin theory. There were two tandems on board. If one tandem pair sat directly behind and leaning against the pilot seat, the seat would not have moved very far. But in a 206 I guess there is enough room to be seated loosely.
From what I saw I would guess it was a trim issue . The seat movement could also be correct of course but the pitch up to 200-300 feet appeared to be speed driven not a sudden pitch up followed by a stall and left wing down. The aircraft had very little forward speed when it hit as witnessed by the ground strike and position of the prop which detached and had severely bent blades in a rotational sense. As for the engine noise I put it down to the Doppler effect of full screaming 206 on takeoff but decelerating speed followed by a thud!
Anyone with a lot of time on skydiving ops in a 206 should be able to tell us if full aft trim on T/O is reasonably easy to overcome, or not.
I'm sure it's been forgotten a few times over the years, with the thousands of loads that have gone up in 206s.
I'm sure it's been forgotten a few times over the years, with the thousands of loads that have gone up in 206s.