MERGED: Skydivers Feared Dead In Light Plane Crash Caboolture
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Asia
Posts: 1,030
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I think the news sites posting photos of the crash, not realising that they are indeed the dead bodies right in the middle, perhaps just a little too far?
EDIT: good to see one paper blurring it out online!
EDIT: good to see one paper blurring it out online!
Last edited by wheels_down; 23rd Mar 2014 at 10:14.
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: out past the back blocks
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Weheka, I have about 200 hours jump flying in a 206 and have forgotten the trim once. From memory I had 6 jumpers on board so it was a very heavy load, and the pitch up was quite violent. The force I that had to use to push forward was massive and not easy at all. Luckily I was strong enough to be able to do it. I don't know how strong the pilot at Caboolture was, but I'm sure a lot of the slighter pilots out there would not have the upper body strength to be able to push the nose down. Needless to say, I never forgot the trim again.
RIP to those involved
RIP to those involved
MERGED: Skydivers Feared Dead In Light Plane Crash Caboolture
BlatantLiar
sorry you found my post so infuriating, but a few seconds on google located this investigation:
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20041105X01762&key=1
you might find the Army Pilatus Porter accident at Jasper's Brush in 1991 and turbine Fletcher out of Fox Glacier NZ 2010 worth reviewing.
sorry you found my post so infuriating, but a few seconds on google located this investigation:
http://www.ntsb.gov/aviationquery/brief.aspx?ev_id=20041105X01762&key=1
you might find the Army Pilatus Porter accident at Jasper's Brush in 1991 and turbine Fletcher out of Fox Glacier NZ 2010 worth reviewing.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,414
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
One of the first things you should do if you have a un-commanded severe pitch up that obviously cannot be retrieved by forward stick, is to roll hard in one direction or the other which causes the nose to fall all the while unloading or maintaining steady forward pressure on the stick. In other words recovery from an unusual attitude. You have to be real quick of course. As the nose reaches the horizon after the roll. You reverse the direction of roll to get back to wings level. After that you take your chances if it pitches up again.
This type of recovery applies to any aeroplane. In fact, under the sub-heading of Upset recovery -Nose high, Wings level, the Boeing 737 Flight Crew Training Manual covers this in the chapter of UA recoveries by stating: Quote:
"If normal pitch control inputs do not stop an increasing pitch rate, rolling the airplane to a bank angle that starts the nose down should work. Bank angles of about 45 degrees, up to a maximum of 60 degrees, could be needed. Unloading the wing by maintaining continuous nose-down elevator pressure keeps the wing angle of attack as low as possible, making the normal roll controls as effective as possible.
With airspeed as low as stick shaker onset, normal roll controls - up to full deflection of ailerons and spoilers - may be used. The rolling maneuver changes the pitch rate into a turning maneuver, allowing the pitch to decrease. Finally, if normal pitch control then roll control is ineffective, careful rudder input into the direction of the desired roll may be required to induce a rolling maneuver for recovery. Only a small amount of rudder is needed.
Too much rudder applied too quickly or held too long may result in loss of lateral and directional control. Because of the low energy condition, pilots should exercise caution when applying the rudder. The reduced pitch attitude allows airspeed to increase, thereby improving elevator and aileron control effectiveness.
After the pitch attitude and airspeed returned to the desired range, the pilot can reduce the angle of bank with normal lateral light controls and return the airplane to normal flight"
Unquote.
............................................................ ....................................
This detailed description of how to recover from a sudden nose high attitude, characteristic of several sky diver aircraft accidents in the past, is probably not be taught during pilot dual instruction on these type of operations. In view of the nature of sky diving operations, it should be. After all, unusual attitude recovery training should be part of PPL training; although one suspects many flying instructors are unsure how to teach the manoeuvre. It does not have to be an aerobatic aircraft for this type of training.
This type of recovery applies to any aeroplane. In fact, under the sub-heading of Upset recovery -Nose high, Wings level, the Boeing 737 Flight Crew Training Manual covers this in the chapter of UA recoveries by stating: Quote:
"If normal pitch control inputs do not stop an increasing pitch rate, rolling the airplane to a bank angle that starts the nose down should work. Bank angles of about 45 degrees, up to a maximum of 60 degrees, could be needed. Unloading the wing by maintaining continuous nose-down elevator pressure keeps the wing angle of attack as low as possible, making the normal roll controls as effective as possible.
With airspeed as low as stick shaker onset, normal roll controls - up to full deflection of ailerons and spoilers - may be used. The rolling maneuver changes the pitch rate into a turning maneuver, allowing the pitch to decrease. Finally, if normal pitch control then roll control is ineffective, careful rudder input into the direction of the desired roll may be required to induce a rolling maneuver for recovery. Only a small amount of rudder is needed.
Too much rudder applied too quickly or held too long may result in loss of lateral and directional control. Because of the low energy condition, pilots should exercise caution when applying the rudder. The reduced pitch attitude allows airspeed to increase, thereby improving elevator and aileron control effectiveness.
After the pitch attitude and airspeed returned to the desired range, the pilot can reduce the angle of bank with normal lateral light controls and return the airplane to normal flight"
Unquote.
............................................................ ....................................
This detailed description of how to recover from a sudden nose high attitude, characteristic of several sky diver aircraft accidents in the past, is probably not be taught during pilot dual instruction on these type of operations. In view of the nature of sky diving operations, it should be. After all, unusual attitude recovery training should be part of PPL training; although one suspects many flying instructors are unsure how to teach the manoeuvre. It does not have to be an aerobatic aircraft for this type of training.
Join Date: Oct 2013
Location: New Zealand
Age: 71
Posts: 1,475
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
500N, good call. Those pictures don't belong here. On this occasion the media, albeit inexperienced and uneducated in aviation accident investigations, committed a despicable mistake in broadcasting a number of those pictures which clearly show things that the public shouldn't see. There is no dignity to the deceased or their loved ones by this having occurred.
I'm not sure what the causation of this accident is, even though I have some of my own theories, but at the end of the day another pilot has died doing what he loves most and in total 5 more people have been added to our aviation death list. A sad day indeed. R.I.P
I'm not sure what the causation of this accident is, even though I have some of my own theories, but at the end of the day another pilot has died doing what he loves most and in total 5 more people have been added to our aviation death list. A sad day indeed. R.I.P
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Brisbane Australia
Posts: 35
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Photos of deceased
Deep down I agree completely but for heavens sake, the pics were accidentally taken I'm sure and unless your attention is specifically drawn to the "objects" in the crash it is physically impossible go make out much detail!
We are bombarded with the most violent and gruesome scenes 24/7 on TV e,g, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. and we have become so hardened and conditioned by death, poverty, destruction and the like, very few of us even turn a hair any more.
We "posters" are partially to blame as we do tend to hammer and emphasise stuff like this, if we dropped the subject it would disappear in a day or so.
If we, as pilots, see a car crash with victims clearly deceased and visible all over the road and in the vehicles, we hardly turn a hair but because we are more closely associated with aircraft victims we do tend to get more hot and bothered over the niceties of it!
Anyway, yer all right basically, not a great image of our media but let's forget about it and concentration what went wrong anc prevent it happening it again.
We are bombarded with the most violent and gruesome scenes 24/7 on TV e,g, Afghanistan, Iraq etc. and we have become so hardened and conditioned by death, poverty, destruction and the like, very few of us even turn a hair any more.
We "posters" are partially to blame as we do tend to hammer and emphasise stuff like this, if we dropped the subject it would disappear in a day or so.
If we, as pilots, see a car crash with victims clearly deceased and visible all over the road and in the vehicles, we hardly turn a hair but because we are more closely associated with aircraft victims we do tend to get more hot and bothered over the niceties of it!
Anyway, yer all right basically, not a great image of our media but let's forget about it and concentration what went wrong anc prevent it happening it again.
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Gods Country
Age: 53
Posts: 181
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have flown thousands of skydive loads in 182's and probably 20-30 loads in 206's.
I have had an out of CofG experience in a 206, though not whilst skydiving. Took off with a full load of 6 POB heading to Birdsville, whilst in flight pax moved bags etc rearwards and with the fuel burn moving it further rear. On slowing down in the circuit at Windorah and taking a stage of flap, pitch control became very very dicey, instantly restoring full power, removing flap slowly and then getting all items moved forward again, even had front RHS pax holding a bag or two and normal control was restored.
IF on rotation or in the subsequent pitch up of unknown cause, pax slid aft on the floor a rear CofG could have ensued making control more than difficult?
Hopefully there are clues to this tragic event.
A sad day for aviation and the skydive industry.
RIP
I have had an out of CofG experience in a 206, though not whilst skydiving. Took off with a full load of 6 POB heading to Birdsville, whilst in flight pax moved bags etc rearwards and with the fuel burn moving it further rear. On slowing down in the circuit at Windorah and taking a stage of flap, pitch control became very very dicey, instantly restoring full power, removing flap slowly and then getting all items moved forward again, even had front RHS pax holding a bag or two and normal control was restored.
IF on rotation or in the subsequent pitch up of unknown cause, pax slid aft on the floor a rear CofG could have ensued making control more than difficult?
Hopefully there are clues to this tragic event.
A sad day for aviation and the skydive industry.
RIP
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 82
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have been asked to explain why a C of G problem was high on my list of factors in this accident.
I have a very active curiosity about the complex mechanisms of aircraft accidents but no commercial or skydiving flying experience.
Most of us would be aware of the full back trim required for a full flap landing in Cessna singles with just a pilot aboard and the very high forward stick pressure required for a go around usually requiring both hands (much higher in the heavier singles)
I am also aware that one of the " Gotchas! " of skydiving aviation is the informal non progressive loading by parachutists who may not be fully aware of the C of G (handling & control) implications. This flight was for two tandem groups who probably wanted to jump as close to each other as possible (photos & video) through a rear cargo exit. A rear C of G risk factor!
The reported left turn of the aircraft and the steep ground impact suggests a stall with left wing drop ? Nose up trim ? Load shift ? Rear C of G
A ( ? reported ) loss of power at a critical time adds to this hazard.
My condolences to all those who have experienced losses in this accident. - so has GA
I have a very active curiosity about the complex mechanisms of aircraft accidents but no commercial or skydiving flying experience.
Most of us would be aware of the full back trim required for a full flap landing in Cessna singles with just a pilot aboard and the very high forward stick pressure required for a go around usually requiring both hands (much higher in the heavier singles)
I am also aware that one of the " Gotchas! " of skydiving aviation is the informal non progressive loading by parachutists who may not be fully aware of the C of G (handling & control) implications. This flight was for two tandem groups who probably wanted to jump as close to each other as possible (photos & video) through a rear cargo exit. A rear C of G risk factor!
The reported left turn of the aircraft and the steep ground impact suggests a stall with left wing drop ? Nose up trim ? Load shift ? Rear C of G
A ( ? reported ) loss of power at a critical time adds to this hazard.
My condolences to all those who have experienced losses in this accident. - so has GA
Last edited by Jimpet; 24th Mar 2014 at 20:19. Reason: Incomplete previous post
Join Date: Aug 2013
Location: AUS
Age: 39
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I am also aware that one of the " Gotchas! " of skydiving aviation is the informal non progressive loading by parachutists who may not be fully aware of the C of G (handling & control) implications. This flight was for two tandem groups who probably wanted to jump as close to each other as possible (photos & video) through a rear cargo exit. A rear C of G risk factor!
Tandem pairs do not jump as close to each other as possible, and they are not getting ready to jump out at 200ft
Join Date: Jul 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 82
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To highlight the point I was trying to make.
How does a normally docile Cessna get into a left stall turn.
Which of the parachutists (if any) were sitting beside the pilot? (As in progressive loading from front to back)
How does a normally docile Cessna get into a left stall turn.
Which of the parachutists (if any) were sitting beside the pilot? (As in progressive loading from front to back)
The "normally docile" 206 is a bit of a different beast when aft loaded at high weight; something I would imagine a skydive-dropper pilot would be well familiar with.
I know of at least one experienced pilot who has been bitten by the low speed handling at high weight/aft c of g.
Join Date: May 2011
Location: AUS
Posts: 8
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
206 crash
Gentlemen,
Word is that the 206 (VH FRT) which crashed at Caboolture on Saturday was bought from Cairns about four years ago. Does anyone know who owned it back then?
The Courier Mail's reporting it had a new engine installed just before its sale...
Word is that the 206 (VH FRT) which crashed at Caboolture on Saturday was bought from Cairns about four years ago. Does anyone know who owned it back then?
The Courier Mail's reporting it had a new engine installed just before its sale...
And that matters why?
Aircraft get new engines all the time. I'd be worried if it didn't get a new engine when the old one became due.
Ahh the stupidity of the uneducated at it again.
Let the poor souls who tragically lost their lives in this accident rest in piece and leave all the answer searching to investigators.
As a regular in and out of Brisy from the North, I've heard and seen old FRT do many a jump run. Quite sad to think it'd finish up in a sad accident like this with a young bloke at the controls who was simply trying to get his career underway and to the next step.
morno
Aircraft get new engines all the time. I'd be worried if it didn't get a new engine when the old one became due.
Ahh the stupidity of the uneducated at it again.
Let the poor souls who tragically lost their lives in this accident rest in piece and leave all the answer searching to investigators.
As a regular in and out of Brisy from the North, I've heard and seen old FRT do many a jump run. Quite sad to think it'd finish up in a sad accident like this with a young bloke at the controls who was simply trying to get his career underway and to the next step.
morno
Thread Starter
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: AU
Posts: 47
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts