"Young Instructor ordered to milk you"
Love the ones who complain, "but my last review was just three circuits!"
Well, seeing as it's my name on your license saying you're safe for the next two years, them I'm going to be damn sure you can actually fly.
I've been contacted by CASA after both AFRs and endorsements when the pilot has screwed something up. If I had done a shifty, guess who would've been in the crap?
Unfortunately, you can't help what they do after all your efforts.
Well, seeing as it's my name on your license saying you're safe for the next two years, them I'm going to be damn sure you can actually fly.
I've been contacted by CASA after both AFRs and endorsements when the pilot has screwed something up. If I had done a shifty, guess who would've been in the crap?
Unfortunately, you can't help what they do after all your efforts.
The only people bitching and moaning about long flight reviews, are probably the remedials that need the extra time. The things flight schools wont ever say to a "customer" is that you are crap. But I can guarantee you, just like any cross section of a community, some of us are awesome, some of us are middle of the road, and some of us are absolutely rubbish (same goes for instructors). Strangely the ego levels don't match the reality.
Just because you have a few hundred hours and own your own aircraft does not make you king, in fact it puts you right in the middle of the worst statistical group for deaths and accidents/incidents in Australia. Thats why CASA are targeting you.
Here's the thing.. If you had to put your name to someone's proficiency, have a think about exactly what that means. If you go out and royally screw up or worse, CASA will come looking for the instructor/s putting their ARNs on the line.
You can tell a lot about a pilot by the way in which he turns up and his basic preparedness, but people do the strangest sh1t under what they perceive as pressure, and if thats all we have to go on and see, we're not ticking all the boxes and you need to do more work.
You will never hear it spoken of like this in your flight school, not to your face anyway, but take it from me, behind closed doors, conversations like this will take place, and its not to be a pain in your butt, or fleece you of dollars, but to do our job (which is to make you a better pilot if we can), and protect ourselves legally.
If the industry paid instructors more, you'd be able to keep people who actually give a sh1t about standards and want to see things lift, stay in the game, but the good guys tend to move on, and the industry is filled with guys who see it as a dirty job they need to do to get in the left seat.
Just because you have a few hundred hours and own your own aircraft does not make you king, in fact it puts you right in the middle of the worst statistical group for deaths and accidents/incidents in Australia. Thats why CASA are targeting you.
Here's the thing.. If you had to put your name to someone's proficiency, have a think about exactly what that means. If you go out and royally screw up or worse, CASA will come looking for the instructor/s putting their ARNs on the line.
You can tell a lot about a pilot by the way in which he turns up and his basic preparedness, but people do the strangest sh1t under what they perceive as pressure, and if thats all we have to go on and see, we're not ticking all the boxes and you need to do more work.
You will never hear it spoken of like this in your flight school, not to your face anyway, but take it from me, behind closed doors, conversations like this will take place, and its not to be a pain in your butt, or fleece you of dollars, but to do our job (which is to make you a better pilot if we can), and protect ourselves legally.
If the industry paid instructors more, you'd be able to keep people who actually give a sh1t about standards and want to see things lift, stay in the game, but the good guys tend to move on, and the industry is filled with guys who see it as a dirty job they need to do to get in the left seat.
Dubbleweight:
I hope you are a MS flight Sim pilot and can never get your hands on a real aircraft.
The BFR is merely a subset of the checking and training that is applied to RPT pilots every few months. Do you wish to suggest their checks are BS too?
Personally, I have been asked where to check the oil on a C172 by a pilot much older Nd more experienced than I. His excuse? "Haven't flown this type for a few years".
the BFR/AFR is one of the greatest rorts ever inflicted on private pilots.
sure in airlines they do recurrent training on the complex machines that they fly but perpetual checks on pilots of simple light aircraft. give me a break.
and you wonder why the flying environment is dead and in terminal decline.
what clueless morons you all are to support the clueless CASA bull****.
sure in airlines they do recurrent training on the complex machines that they fly but perpetual checks on pilots of simple light aircraft. give me a break.
and you wonder why the flying environment is dead and in terminal decline.
what clueless morons you all are to support the clueless CASA bull****.
The BFR is merely a subset of the checking and training that is applied to RPT pilots every few months. Do you wish to suggest their checks are BS too?
Personally, I have been asked where to check the oil on a C172 by a pilot much older Nd more experienced than I. His excuse? "Haven't flown this type for a few years".
I've only had two pilots decline to do an AFR with me after I had explained relevant parts of the CAAP to them. One called later to say he had done a floatplane endorsement rather than waste his money doing an AFR with me. The other said he always had another pilot in the RHS so didn't need a proper AFR - I hope he chose to hang up his headset.
Despite being in an airline cyclic program, recently I needed a BFR for my bugsmasher (recreation) certificate renewal. In the past the RA Aus people accepted that a pilot in some other regular checking system automatically qualified for RA. However, and rightly in my view, they now require some proof of competence in more representative aircraft.
Phoning around and making a few enquiries, I got varying responses from "we will just do a few circuits to see if you are OK" to needing a two hour question-and-answer review and "probably about two hours in the air". I don't do OTT, even at work, so scrub that guy. And I really could not see what benefit I would get from doing 'a few circuits' so scrub the el-cheapo guy as well.
I settled for the school that quoted a standard hour, but more if I needed it. Sounded professional and practical, and proved to be so. Their aircraft was immaculate and the instructor, although fairly new to the game, was enthusiastic and thorough. We did a couple of stalls, a couple of forced landing exercises, a steep turn and a simulated EFATO. The boxes were all ticked in 40 minutes, so I was then given the opportunity to practice what I saw as best for me. Because I don't like doing full glide approaches in my own aircraft, I took advantage of theirs to sharpen up this rarely-practiced skill.
This particular school had a minimum charge of an hour, which is fair on two counts: 1. Because there is no pilot on the planet who would not benefit from an hour's dual every two years, and
2. They have a substantial investment in new-ish aircraft and obviously need to run it as a business.
But, if a pilot needs more than an hour and a bit of coaching, there is no doubt that this school would insist on it. If the pilot did not accept those terms prior to the BFR, I would like to think that they would turn away that business.
Of course a pilot unable to accept those terms would probably go to el cheapo in the first place. Which is OK too, because in the fullness of time Charles Darwin will yet again be proven right.
Phoning around and making a few enquiries, I got varying responses from "we will just do a few circuits to see if you are OK" to needing a two hour question-and-answer review and "probably about two hours in the air". I don't do OTT, even at work, so scrub that guy. And I really could not see what benefit I would get from doing 'a few circuits' so scrub the el-cheapo guy as well.
I settled for the school that quoted a standard hour, but more if I needed it. Sounded professional and practical, and proved to be so. Their aircraft was immaculate and the instructor, although fairly new to the game, was enthusiastic and thorough. We did a couple of stalls, a couple of forced landing exercises, a steep turn and a simulated EFATO. The boxes were all ticked in 40 minutes, so I was then given the opportunity to practice what I saw as best for me. Because I don't like doing full glide approaches in my own aircraft, I took advantage of theirs to sharpen up this rarely-practiced skill.
This particular school had a minimum charge of an hour, which is fair on two counts: 1. Because there is no pilot on the planet who would not benefit from an hour's dual every two years, and
2. They have a substantial investment in new-ish aircraft and obviously need to run it as a business.
But, if a pilot needs more than an hour and a bit of coaching, there is no doubt that this school would insist on it. If the pilot did not accept those terms prior to the BFR, I would like to think that they would turn away that business.
Of course a pilot unable to accept those terms would probably go to el cheapo in the first place. Which is OK too, because in the fullness of time Charles Darwin will yet again be proven right.
Join Date: May 2013
Location: have I forgotten or am I lost?
Age: 71
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
what a load of codswallop you people write.
we have an environment now where people simply aren't flying enough to remain current. no amount of instructor time is going to fix that.
when are you going to realise then acknowledge that CASA are total effing nutters and have set aviation on a course that is a terminal end game.
you will not fix aviation in this country until you start structuring the environment so that pilots get out and fly their aircraft.
me, I went for a fly over the city on saturday. it wasn't a drama.
the area controller was so bored by the lack of radio traffic that he issued an "all stations, the qnh is 1014" just to relieve the boredom.
ffs you wankers put your tin whistles and important looking hats away and work toward getting aviation in this country working again.
you have no future otherwise.
we have an environment now where people simply aren't flying enough to remain current. no amount of instructor time is going to fix that.
when are you going to realise then acknowledge that CASA are total effing nutters and have set aviation on a course that is a terminal end game.
you will not fix aviation in this country until you start structuring the environment so that pilots get out and fly their aircraft.
me, I went for a fly over the city on saturday. it wasn't a drama.
the area controller was so bored by the lack of radio traffic that he issued an "all stations, the qnh is 1014" just to relieve the boredom.
ffs you wankers put your tin whistles and important looking hats away and work toward getting aviation in this country working again.
you have no future otherwise.
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Australia
Posts: 1,186
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
but people do the strangest sh1t under what they perceive as pressure,
Join Date: May 2013
Location: have I forgotten or am I lost?
Age: 71
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
sunfish this safety thing is such a pervasive part of aviation that you wonder why.
when you drive down the freeway at higher than suburban speeds I'll wager that you are never focussed on "safety", you are focussed on getting there without pranging or getting lost.
when you go out fishing in the tinny, you stow the safety gear under the seats so that you can get on with the fishing. you are focussed on finding where the fish are, not in drowning or "safety"
so why the great focus on safety in aviation? why not a focus on competent aviation?
I wouldn't mind betting that what is actually at play here is the fear of death.
some people succumb to the rituals of a religion to assuage their fears of the unknown. some people can never realise that while they can't see it because the air is transparent there are huge forces exerted on an aeroplane that will reliably occur if the speed is kept up.
biennials are more of a ritual to assuage the fear of flying than anything of real benefit.
on a personal basis I have no fear of flying. 40 years studying and playing with aerodynamics and a decade of aeronautical engineering study have removed my fear of flying completely.
lets just move beyond the BFR concept. the accidents still occur so what next?
will CASA require co pilots in every private aircraft because it is a demonstrated safety benefit in the airlines.
you have got to conquer your fear of flying or it leads to all sorts of nonsense ritual behaviour.
when you drive down the freeway at higher than suburban speeds I'll wager that you are never focussed on "safety", you are focussed on getting there without pranging or getting lost.
when you go out fishing in the tinny, you stow the safety gear under the seats so that you can get on with the fishing. you are focussed on finding where the fish are, not in drowning or "safety"
so why the great focus on safety in aviation? why not a focus on competent aviation?
I wouldn't mind betting that what is actually at play here is the fear of death.
some people succumb to the rituals of a religion to assuage their fears of the unknown. some people can never realise that while they can't see it because the air is transparent there are huge forces exerted on an aeroplane that will reliably occur if the speed is kept up.
biennials are more of a ritual to assuage the fear of flying than anything of real benefit.
on a personal basis I have no fear of flying. 40 years studying and playing with aerodynamics and a decade of aeronautical engineering study have removed my fear of flying completely.
lets just move beyond the BFR concept. the accidents still occur so what next?
will CASA require co pilots in every private aircraft because it is a demonstrated safety benefit in the airlines.
you have got to conquer your fear of flying or it leads to all sorts of nonsense ritual behaviour.
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: QLD
Age: 34
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are you actually serious?
W8
You ask why the focus on safety in aviation?
Really?
I think perhaps it's time to pass on your headset.
We want safety so that when we tell people we are pilots they say they want to fly, not start reminding us of all the crashes.
If this is seriously your attitude then I very much recommend that you give it up because our industry does not need you in the air.
An hour and a half every 2 years. Not that hard for a little peace of mind and to check you haven't developed any bad habits.
You ask why the focus on safety in aviation?
Really?
I think perhaps it's time to pass on your headset.
We want safety so that when we tell people we are pilots they say they want to fly, not start reminding us of all the crashes.
If this is seriously your attitude then I very much recommend that you give it up because our industry does not need you in the air.
An hour and a half every 2 years. Not that hard for a little peace of mind and to check you haven't developed any bad habits.
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: new zealand
Posts: 97
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To answer an earlier question: yes NZ has a BFR for licenced pilots (can also be done as part of an instructor/instrument etc renewal, if those are being done). Sounds much the same as an Australian one. No minimum time, up to assessing instructors standard (which should be the book standard for the licence held) or it continues until that standard is met.
I've done a few as an instructor, some took about an hour, others a bit longer, some much longer. The much longer ones sometimes stretched to multiple flights.
No I did not milk it, being flown badly about the sky observing variations of incompetance did not make me feel like going back for seconds (or thirds or sixths) but some people were just that bad and there was no way my signature was going into that book until I was happy (same went for any paperwork, I was happy to help and correct, but I wasn't going to do the whole bloodly lot).
At least one had some 'funny' hours and it showed. That one was never finished and we later received phone calls for another training organisation and the CAA about him.
I've done a few as an instructor, some took about an hour, others a bit longer, some much longer. The much longer ones sometimes stretched to multiple flights.
No I did not milk it, being flown badly about the sky observing variations of incompetance did not make me feel like going back for seconds (or thirds or sixths) but some people were just that bad and there was no way my signature was going into that book until I was happy (same went for any paperwork, I was happy to help and correct, but I wasn't going to do the whole bloodly lot).
At least one had some 'funny' hours and it showed. That one was never finished and we later received phone calls for another training organisation and the CAA about him.
Guys/gals whilst I don't subscribe to everything that D8 mentions here I think some are getting a little over the top with all this.
I mean flying a plane is nothing special, it's just a learnt skill, much like handling any piece of machinery that requires training. I've said it a few times amongst these pages it's really just a trade, I personally don't call it a profession as such (& that's just my opinion), again it's just a skill that one gets shown, understands the reasoning behind it & then practices it 'till a level of proficiency of achieved, that is it no more.
A BFR is like getting yr car checked every year for road worthiness (not here in Vic which is astonishing!) same with pilots that I believe ought to be done but not go over the top with it as anyone can behave like a circus monkey on the day perform all the required tasks of the tester bluffing them then fly off with the tick/s in the box totally in his or her world.
The concept is a bit of ass covering which society has to have & at times for reasons that are not safety orientated.
Just because you sign someone off on the day does that mean he/she will be as safe the follwoing day? Hardly!
Wmk2
I mean flying a plane is nothing special, it's just a learnt skill, much like handling any piece of machinery that requires training. I've said it a few times amongst these pages it's really just a trade, I personally don't call it a profession as such (& that's just my opinion), again it's just a skill that one gets shown, understands the reasoning behind it & then practices it 'till a level of proficiency of achieved, that is it no more.
A BFR is like getting yr car checked every year for road worthiness (not here in Vic which is astonishing!) same with pilots that I believe ought to be done but not go over the top with it as anyone can behave like a circus monkey on the day perform all the required tasks of the tester bluffing them then fly off with the tick/s in the box totally in his or her world.
The concept is a bit of ass covering which society has to have & at times for reasons that are not safety orientated.
Just because you sign someone off on the day does that mean he/she will be as safe the follwoing day? Hardly!
Wmk2
W8:
I fly, drive, sail and scuba dive. Fear doesn't come into it. I have a fair idea of exactly what is going to happen to me and how fast it will happen if I stuff up.
....That is why I practice risk management and that includes regular practice and consideration of emergency situations.
on a personal basis I have no fear of flying. 40 years studying and playing with aerodynamics and a decade of aeronautical engineering study have removed my fear of flying completely.
....That is why I practice risk management and that includes regular practice and consideration of emergency situations.
On that same vein then Wally Mk2, why do we bother we Police? Criminals still manage to commit crime anyway so why bother? We still see dodgy vehicles on the road that somehow passed a roadworthy so why bother with those either? Terrorists, drug smugglers and other nefarious fiends are going to find ways to get things onto an aircraft they shouldn't so why do we bother with that?
I know I'm going a little overboard with some of those examples but the fact remains, just because something isn't 100% effective by itself doesn't mean you don't bother, it becomes part of the overall safety net designed to try and make sure people are in good habits and capable.
You're entirely right with the AFRs, someone can pass one and go out and do something exceptionally stupid, in that case the instructor turns around and says "Well, I told him not to be a complete tool, he demonstrated he was capable of being a safe Pilot so I signed him off" Yes, it's a bit of ass covering to some degree but there are plenty of practical aspects to it, doesn't mean we don't do it just because people can go and be twits after the fact!!
I know I'm going a little overboard with some of those examples but the fact remains, just because something isn't 100% effective by itself doesn't mean you don't bother, it becomes part of the overall safety net designed to try and make sure people are in good habits and capable.
You're entirely right with the AFRs, someone can pass one and go out and do something exceptionally stupid, in that case the instructor turns around and says "Well, I told him not to be a complete tool, he demonstrated he was capable of being a safe Pilot so I signed him off" Yes, it's a bit of ass covering to some degree but there are plenty of practical aspects to it, doesn't mean we don't do it just because people can go and be twits after the fact!!
"IXY" I understand where yr comin' & agree with you from but that single word used the world over "WHY" in all languages will always perplex mankind :-)
Why indeed do we do anything from cleaning our teeth to checking the the fuel in our tanks, why we do it is to keep the species alive & maintain some semblance of order & longevity.
It's a bit like insurance, why have it?................. 'Just in case' Doesn't guarantee anything.
Why carry a spare wheel? 'Just in case' Doesn't guarantee anything.
Why do we have a BFR/AFR? "Just in case' Doesn't guarantee anything.
If we didn't 'WHY" then there would be more 'WHY's":-)
Long live the Aeroplane
Wmk2
Why indeed do we do anything from cleaning our teeth to checking the the fuel in our tanks, why we do it is to keep the species alive & maintain some semblance of order & longevity.
It's a bit like insurance, why have it?................. 'Just in case' Doesn't guarantee anything.
Why carry a spare wheel? 'Just in case' Doesn't guarantee anything.
Why do we have a BFR/AFR? "Just in case' Doesn't guarantee anything.
If we didn't 'WHY" then there would be more 'WHY's":-)
Long live the Aeroplane
Wmk2
Join Date: May 2012
Location: Sydney
Posts: 71
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just for the record. I've worked for a flight school where the instructors were told to milk the students. In fact, I saw the owner ask for a $3000.00 fee to release a pilots log book after completing a CPL.
Join Date: May 2013
Location: have I forgotten or am I lost?
Age: 71
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
is the biennial flight review the right way to go?
on one of the threads someone asked me the question something along the lines of ...
"if a biennial flight review costs you $680 for two hours with an instructor, is that really a problem?"
as a private owner I don't normally bother to amortise my costs totally on a per hour basis but the last time I did it it was $55 per hour all in.
what I do is count my fuel costs and oil and if I have that in the wallet I go flying.
21.5 litres an hour fuel burnt at a perth price of $1.54 per litre is just under $34 per hour.
$680 biennial cost divided by $34 an hour is the equivalent of 20 hours local flying. I haven't rigged it, it just worked out that way.
I also looked at a flight Perth to Gawler just north of adelaide.
home to kalgoorlie, 300 nautical miles
kalgoorlie to forrest, 345 nautical miles
forrest to ceduna, 297 nautical miles
ceduna to port pirie, 238 nautical miles
port pirie to gawler, 90 nautical miles.
total distance 1270 nautical miles.
I normally cruise near 120 knots but for preliminary flight planning I plan on a cruise speed of 110 knots, that way I can ignore a headwind up to 10 knots.
at 110 knots I get a flight time of 11 hours 36 minutes.
so a 2 hour biennial with an instructor costs more than a flight across australia for me.
I know which scenario would get me more experience and hone the skills for the $680.
if I use just perth prices for fuel the biennial amounts to the cost of a flight across to gawler and back. obviously the fuel costs in the outback will be higher but a biennial is a significant waste of money.
btw last night my son said "what are you complaining about? every two years I have to have 5 biennials."
... and people wonder why aviation in this country is dead.
"if a biennial flight review costs you $680 for two hours with an instructor, is that really a problem?"
as a private owner I don't normally bother to amortise my costs totally on a per hour basis but the last time I did it it was $55 per hour all in.
what I do is count my fuel costs and oil and if I have that in the wallet I go flying.
21.5 litres an hour fuel burnt at a perth price of $1.54 per litre is just under $34 per hour.
$680 biennial cost divided by $34 an hour is the equivalent of 20 hours local flying. I haven't rigged it, it just worked out that way.
I also looked at a flight Perth to Gawler just north of adelaide.
home to kalgoorlie, 300 nautical miles
kalgoorlie to forrest, 345 nautical miles
forrest to ceduna, 297 nautical miles
ceduna to port pirie, 238 nautical miles
port pirie to gawler, 90 nautical miles.
total distance 1270 nautical miles.
I normally cruise near 120 knots but for preliminary flight planning I plan on a cruise speed of 110 knots, that way I can ignore a headwind up to 10 knots.
at 110 knots I get a flight time of 11 hours 36 minutes.
so a 2 hour biennial with an instructor costs more than a flight across australia for me.
I know which scenario would get me more experience and hone the skills for the $680.
if I use just perth prices for fuel the biennial amounts to the cost of a flight across to gawler and back. obviously the fuel costs in the outback will be higher but a biennial is a significant waste of money.
btw last night my son said "what are you complaining about? every two years I have to have 5 biennials."
... and people wonder why aviation in this country is dead.
Perhaps not the correct sub-forum for a thread ending in a question mark, but I’ll leave that to the mods…
During your flight Perth to Gawler, do you practise a diversion, engine failure and forced landing?
For my part, if a BFR/AFR is considered an appropriate requirement in the USA, I don’t see why it’s inappropriate in Australia.
During your flight Perth to Gawler, do you practise a diversion, engine failure and forced landing?
For my part, if a BFR/AFR is considered an appropriate requirement in the USA, I don’t see why it’s inappropriate in Australia.