Command Hours After Cadetship?
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Command Hours After Cadetship?
Hey guys,
Im new to the aviation industry, and i'm researching my way through finding the path I want to become a commanding pilot.
I have a question about the cadetship program because as far as I've researched many people are saying that after completion you will have a problem with getting commanding hours.
What are the limitations prior to the cadetship?
Will it be hard for me to become a pilot in command down the track?
Im new to the aviation industry, and i'm researching my way through finding the path I want to become a commanding pilot.
I have a question about the cadetship program because as far as I've researched many people are saying that after completion you will have a problem with getting commanding hours.
What are the limitations prior to the cadetship?
Will it be hard for me to become a pilot in command down the track?
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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The new pilots most likely to have a problem getting 'Command' hours, (PIC), are those that pay their way through flight school and type rating straight into the right hand seat, (FO), of a transport jet.
If a new pilot, having obtained his CPL, is able to get a single crew job on light aircraft and build up, say, 1500 to 2000 PIC that will probably be enough to satisfy all licence requirements. Unfortunately, in this day and age, you may still need to buy a jet rating to get taken on by the airlines unless your lucky and find an employer that will pay for your rating, such employers will probably require a Return of Service of between three and five years. Command will come when you meet the experience and qualifications requirements of your employer and it is your turn, i.e. you have seniority.
If a new pilot, having obtained his CPL, is able to get a single crew job on light aircraft and build up, say, 1500 to 2000 PIC that will probably be enough to satisfy all licence requirements. Unfortunately, in this day and age, you may still need to buy a jet rating to get taken on by the airlines unless your lucky and find an employer that will pay for your rating, such employers will probably require a Return of Service of between three and five years. Command will come when you meet the experience and qualifications requirements of your employer and it is your turn, i.e. you have seniority.
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You can also log In Command Under Supervision (ICUS) hours where can build towards your PIC hours as a FO.
There are a number of cavets around building ICUS including your potential employer actively supporting it. I believe ICUS hours count for less then PIC hours when looking at licensing requirements.
There are a number of cavets around building ICUS including your potential employer actively supporting it. I believe ICUS hours count for less then PIC hours when looking at licensing requirements.
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Regarding command time for an ATPL.
These days there are quite a lot of cadets (or trainees) working in the RHS of jets and turboprops in Australia. They are the trailblazers in Australia of a system that has been successful overseas for about thirty to forty years.
If you're just starting out now, the path to command will be well established by the time you get there; you will not be stranded in perpetual right-hand-seat misery! As Parabellum said, you'll have to wait your turn though, and it may take longer than you expect, or think is fair.
Take the career path that best suits your character, aptitude and interests. Then be patient.
These days there are quite a lot of cadets (or trainees) working in the RHS of jets and turboprops in Australia. They are the trailblazers in Australia of a system that has been successful overseas for about thirty to forty years.
If you're just starting out now, the path to command will be well established by the time you get there; you will not be stranded in perpetual right-hand-seat misery! As Parabellum said, you'll have to wait your turn though, and it may take longer than you expect, or think is fair.
Take the career path that best suits your character, aptitude and interests. Then be patient.
The other caveat is if your airlines goes broke or retrenches. As a cadet with zero command time at all and only one type rating you are pretty much screwed as you will have great difficulty getting direct entry employment in another operator.
A situation that a few QF cadets may find themselves in very shortly.
A situation that a few QF cadets may find themselves in very shortly.
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Most cadets will end up working within an airline that has a high capacity AOC.
The hours can then be made up via ICUS to achieve the ATPL command requirements.
Different story if you are working for an airline with a low capacity AOC. Most likely you will have to do some flying outside of your main workplace in order to gain the required hours.
The hours can then be made up via ICUS to achieve the ATPL command requirements.
Different story if you are working for an airline with a low capacity AOC. Most likely you will have to do some flying outside of your main workplace in order to gain the required hours.
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As I said, "most likely" not all.
REX has an approved program in place granted by CASA.
Kendell airlines operated under a high capacity AOC as was able to upgrade early cadets to jet commands via an ICUS program.
Likely CASA has taken this background into consideration when it comes to REX.
REX has an approved program in place granted by CASA.
Kendell airlines operated under a high capacity AOC as was able to upgrade early cadets to jet commands via an ICUS program.
Likely CASA has taken this background into consideration when it comes to REX.
The hours can then be made up via ICUS to achieve the ATPL command requirements.
Now I stand to be corrected, but originally you had to have among other things, a minimum of 500 hours real command time to qualify for an ATPL. It could even be all on singles. I believe it was the original Qantas cadet system that started the lowering of that standard. That was when it was realised that after 10-15 years of F/O time on Super Connies, DC4's and 707's, it was discovered that when pilots finally attained the company seniority to begin command training, they had nowhere near 500 hours of command time. In fact some still only had the basic CPL command time of 100 hours. To allow co pilots to obtain command time (or was that the first use of ICUS especially designed for Qantas former cadets) Qantas had a Dc3 and an HS 125.
Similarly Qantas in the 1960's or early 1970's (?) arranged with small regionals including Solair in the Solomon Islands, to take the Qantas 200 hour cadets and give them work flying light singles to eventually reach 500 command hours. C206, C185's Queen Air and Aztecs come to mind. Nevertheless, it was valuable command experience.
Qantas leaned on the then DCA to lower the ATPL min command hours (500) requirements. Being the national carrier flying the Red Kangaroo, Qantas had great influence on DCA and in those days if Qantas said Jump - DCA officials usually jumped. . Eventually, DCA caved in and now the ATPL is not worth a pinch of salt as a measure of experience since the minimum qualification has been watered down to present day requirements of 75-100 real command hours. The rest was made up with useless ICUS.
Many consider ICUS a con and also not worth a pinch of salt as it is not real decision making time but simply a continuation of basic co-pilot time using weasel words.
Last edited by Centaurus; 3rd Feb 2014 at 01:14.
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Centaurus,
Wouldn't ICUS hours potential be more beneficial to a FO then bashing around solo in a single engine? The whole concept to me seems like the FO does the role of captain while the captain plays first officers and mentors the FO on what he could do better. as well as being able to take over if the job gets away from the FO.
This kind of safety net Ie the capt, would allow for real world experience without diving into the pot of luck.
Or is it standard practice with ICUS that the FO basically does the FO work and just marks down ICUS in there log book? thus when getting there command they still having really gained the required experience.
* I'm a newbie trying to understand the obvious disdain for ICUS hours and cadet pilots.
Wouldn't ICUS hours potential be more beneficial to a FO then bashing around solo in a single engine? The whole concept to me seems like the FO does the role of captain while the captain plays first officers and mentors the FO on what he could do better. as well as being able to take over if the job gets away from the FO.
This kind of safety net Ie the capt, would allow for real world experience without diving into the pot of luck.
Or is it standard practice with ICUS that the FO basically does the FO work and just marks down ICUS in there log book? thus when getting there command they still having really gained the required experience.
* I'm a newbie trying to understand the obvious disdain for ICUS hours and cadet pilots.
There is no substitute for getting yourself in a pickle and trying to problem solve your way out of it. Especially when you're it. There is no support.
Airline environments are well structured and sop orientated. It's not the place to push the envelope and develop your character. It's not hard to say choice worlds and read ECAM.
I can say personally after 1000s of hours of charter and regional work that many skills I acquired come in very handy in an airline environment. Especially the monkey on your shoulder. When it doesn't look and feel right, it probably isn't. You develop a strong bull**** radar. Especially in Asia. This was well honed in community charter work.
Don't feed the monkey.
Airline environments are well structured and sop orientated. It's not the place to push the envelope and develop your character. It's not hard to say choice worlds and read ECAM.
I can say personally after 1000s of hours of charter and regional work that many skills I acquired come in very handy in an airline environment. Especially the monkey on your shoulder. When it doesn't look and feel right, it probably isn't. You develop a strong bull**** radar. Especially in Asia. This was well honed in community charter work.
Don't feed the monkey.
Unfortunately, when you buy your job, they amount you get paid might only feed a monkey...
I don't see how an FO in the RHS during normal line ops should be logging ICUS. As others have mentioned many airlines and regional operators use pilot flying and pilot monitoring roles which are interchangeable between capt and fo only some specific duties which are left or right seat orientated. If a fo joins an airline flies from the RHS and carries out normal duties this is co pilot time....
I only reckon ICUS should be logged for a candidate in the LHS undergoing command training this is when they are truly In Command Under Supervision. Using it to top up hours for an ATPL just doesn't make sense to me
I only reckon ICUS should be logged for a candidate in the LHS undergoing command training this is when they are truly In Command Under Supervision. Using it to top up hours for an ATPL just doesn't make sense to me
No it doesn't make sense Blank. But try telling 'em that. Because it is legal (due to reasons outlined earlier) the hornets will be here soon vigorously defending it.
Also to consider when mapping out your career path - if you have any choice in it, of course!
Under current Australian rules you could get 1500 hours PIC in a Baron, then theoretically start command line training on an A-380 and after 100 or so hours of ICUS become a Captain. Totally improbable, of course, but legal.
The old terms 'low capacity' and 'high capacity' will disappear from the regulations and you will have Part 135 and 121 for little transport aircraft and bigger transport aircraft respectively.
Under the new regime, say you work your way up to a command in Part 135 on something like a Saab and log 5000 genuine PIC hours. When you go Part 121 - even with the same carrier - you will most likely have to do at least 500 hours of Part 121 operating experience (i.e. as F/O) before being eligible for a command. Then most likely 100 hours ICUS during left seat line training.
Or you could simply start in the RHS of a Part 121 type.
Either way, times are going full circle to the day soon when it could take 20 years for someone starting as a cadet pilot in one of our major carriers to get a command on a heavy aircraft.
Building time in GA does of course have many merits, but in future improving one's chances of an early command won't be one of them.
Under current Australian rules you could get 1500 hours PIC in a Baron, then theoretically start command line training on an A-380 and after 100 or so hours of ICUS become a Captain. Totally improbable, of course, but legal.
The old terms 'low capacity' and 'high capacity' will disappear from the regulations and you will have Part 135 and 121 for little transport aircraft and bigger transport aircraft respectively.
Under the new regime, say you work your way up to a command in Part 135 on something like a Saab and log 5000 genuine PIC hours. When you go Part 121 - even with the same carrier - you will most likely have to do at least 500 hours of Part 121 operating experience (i.e. as F/O) before being eligible for a command. Then most likely 100 hours ICUS during left seat line training.
Or you could simply start in the RHS of a Part 121 type.
Either way, times are going full circle to the day soon when it could take 20 years for someone starting as a cadet pilot in one of our major carriers to get a command on a heavy aircraft.
Building time in GA does of course have many merits, but in future improving one's chances of an early command won't be one of them.
Think of the past 1970's & 80's.
In those days there was a vibrant General Aviation sector. Young pilots progressed up the GA ladder until the went to the airlines. The exception to this was those entering Airlines from the military.
In both cases they started at the bottom and climbed the ladder towards command on an Airliner.
What do we have now? A General Aviation sector that has been emasculated by an indifferent set of Governments and a regulator that positively hates General Aviation.
If the Australian Airlines supported General Aviation then they would have a source of quality pilots who have HAD EXPERIENCE.
I have a friend who is a regular contributor here who was a cadet with Qantas was seconded to Maslings on Queenairs. The result was he became a pilot who could take command decisions because he had experienced all those cold winter nights in a B65 without deice.
In all the time I have been in the Industry the one fact I can be proud of is the number of pilots who have flown my aircraft who are now senior captains. All of whom I am happy to put myself and my family on their flights.
Perhaps the GA industry should lobby our Airlines to assist. But hey with the Like of a small Irishman in control what chance would there be!!!!!!!!!!
In those days there was a vibrant General Aviation sector. Young pilots progressed up the GA ladder until the went to the airlines. The exception to this was those entering Airlines from the military.
In both cases they started at the bottom and climbed the ladder towards command on an Airliner.
What do we have now? A General Aviation sector that has been emasculated by an indifferent set of Governments and a regulator that positively hates General Aviation.
If the Australian Airlines supported General Aviation then they would have a source of quality pilots who have HAD EXPERIENCE.
I have a friend who is a regular contributor here who was a cadet with Qantas was seconded to Maslings on Queenairs. The result was he became a pilot who could take command decisions because he had experienced all those cold winter nights in a B65 without deice.
In all the time I have been in the Industry the one fact I can be proud of is the number of pilots who have flown my aircraft who are now senior captains. All of whom I am happy to put myself and my family on their flights.
Perhaps the GA industry should lobby our Airlines to assist. But hey with the Like of a small Irishman in control what chance would there be!!!!!!!!!!
