Airport Noise Complainers
Always an amusing topic this noise issue, ever notice that every post is from aviation enthusiasts (be interesting to know how many 'noisy' people have PPrune Acc's) saying the std reply mostly, the drome was there first, I mean it's almost pointless, we pat each other on the back almost, I'm no different.
I grew up under the Flt path of EN the major drome many years ago (bloody noisy no quiet generation noise abatement back then) & I am not aware of any complaints from my neighbors around me & that's 'cause life back then was far more simple, we all got along well we respected the law & behaved accordingly, now Christ it's all 'about me' & we have lost control of our now pressure cooker society, it's a war zone out there!
Noise complaints are everyone's right, aviation is only a small area as I believe barking dogs are the most complained about as far as councils are concerned. We are all entitled to a level of peace & to keep the amenity of our properties, trouble is we now live in a pressure cooker society where tolerance is almost zero in all walks of life.
A bitching society keeps a LOT of people in employment!
Wmk2
I grew up under the Flt path of EN the major drome many years ago (bloody noisy no quiet generation noise abatement back then) & I am not aware of any complaints from my neighbors around me & that's 'cause life back then was far more simple, we all got along well we respected the law & behaved accordingly, now Christ it's all 'about me' & we have lost control of our now pressure cooker society, it's a war zone out there!
Noise complaints are everyone's right, aviation is only a small area as I believe barking dogs are the most complained about as far as councils are concerned. We are all entitled to a level of peace & to keep the amenity of our properties, trouble is we now live in a pressure cooker society where tolerance is almost zero in all walks of life.
A bitching society keeps a LOT of people in employment!
Wmk2
Last edited by Wally Mk2; 31st Jan 2014 at 04:08.
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Yes, there are genuine complaints because there has been a change in noise levels and it may be genuinely disturbing to your life. On the other side are the muppets like that Kellyville idiot who complain for some sort of mental masturbation or people who move next to a 100 year old brewery and are surprised that trucks perform deliveries to it.
I live two suburbs over from Kellyville and while you can hear aircraft flying over, you would generally only notice them if everything else was dead silent or you specifically listened out for it. There is no way it is disturbing and certainly not when inside a house. The only time I have had real noise was C-17s doing some circuits over the house and that has only ever been at mid afternoon (and I was running outside to snap photos anyway).
The zero tolerance thing is right though - how many current problems in society would are caused because people just won't let things that don't matter slide.
I live two suburbs over from Kellyville and while you can hear aircraft flying over, you would generally only notice them if everything else was dead silent or you specifically listened out for it. There is no way it is disturbing and certainly not when inside a house. The only time I have had real noise was C-17s doing some circuits over the house and that has only ever been at mid afternoon (and I was running outside to snap photos anyway).
The zero tolerance thing is right though - how many current problems in society would are caused because people just won't let things that don't matter slide.
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Council has no jurisdiction of anything 1 metre or more above ground not supported by anything other than air.
That is ASA and CASA territory.
Without a Commonwealth legislation protecting airfields they can all be shut down if complainants get smart, rather than just emotional. It just depends on how much they want to throw at it and how the courts determine which law is more to the societies benefit than the other...
just my 2c
That is ASA and CASA territory.
Without a Commonwealth legislation protecting airfields they can all be shut down if complainants get smart, rather than just emotional. It just depends on how much they want to throw at it and how the courts determine which law is more to the societies benefit than the other...
just my 2c
they can all be shut down if complainants get smart
Firstly, nearly all airports are protected by "pre-existing use" rights. Secondly, councils (despite what they pretend to have) actually have little power. Its with the State Governments.
And private individuals have the same right to "garage" an aircraft on their land as a car. This is untested here (because it hasn't needed to be tested) but the same legal precedent that allows you to park a car on your home protects your right to park an aircraft on your land.
The greatest threat is weak airport owners and property values.
How about this for a noise restricted operating environment. Airport management and the shire are being held to ransom by a very small but noisy band of serial complainers.
The airport was built by funding from the WA govt, that is, our taxes and you have to operate in whisper quiet mode.
Busselton
The airport was built by funding from the WA govt, that is, our taxes and you have to operate in whisper quiet mode.
Busselton
LOCAL TRAFFIC REGULATIONS
1. Large ACFT ABV F50 use turning nodes at RWY ends, MNM speed, MAX radius.
2. Flight training not AVBL (including LDG, TKOF, TGL). Contact AD Manager for further
information.
3. STD OPR HR ACFT:
3.1 EMERG Services unrestricted.
3.2 Single ENG ACFT BLW 2000KG not exceeding 65dB(A) unrestricted.
3.3 General Aviation 0700-1900 local subject to not exceeding 85dB(A).
3.4 Open and closed CHTR ACFT 0600-2100 local subject to not exceeding 85dB(A) - APV
RQ.
3.5 RPT 0600-2300 local subject to not exceeding 85dB(A) - APV RQ.
3.6 Flight training RQ APV all ACFT.
4. TKOF and landing on grass strip not permitted.
1. Large ACFT ABV F50 use turning nodes at RWY ends, MNM speed, MAX radius.
2. Flight training not AVBL (including LDG, TKOF, TGL). Contact AD Manager for further
information.
3. STD OPR HR ACFT:
3.1 EMERG Services unrestricted.
3.2 Single ENG ACFT BLW 2000KG not exceeding 65dB(A) unrestricted.
3.3 General Aviation 0700-1900 local subject to not exceeding 85dB(A).
3.4 Open and closed CHTR ACFT 0600-2100 local subject to not exceeding 85dB(A) - APV
RQ.
3.5 RPT 0600-2300 local subject to not exceeding 85dB(A) - APV RQ.
3.6 Flight training RQ APV all ACFT.
4. TKOF and landing on grass strip not permitted.
Re noise complaints. I was in Head Office DCA Melbourne in the late Sixties when noise complaints were continually annoying a local Member of Parliament whose electorate was under the Sydney 07 ILS flight path.
In those days the ICAO standard ILS was set at about 2.5 to 2.75 degrees. My boss Lloyd Milne (former wartime Hudson pilot) was told by his boss Sir Donald Anderson (via the chain of command of course) to suggest a solution. After all it was a political issue. Lloyd scratched his head and came up with the idea to increase the glide slope angle up to three degrees which approached the upper limit for a jet transport approach without increasing the rate of descent too much. The theory being three degrees would mean a steeper angle of approach, therefore less power and less noise foot print. I think it added about an extra 150 feet to the outer marker crossing height four miles out.
The local Member for the Outer Marker (I think it was Padstow) constituency was pleased about that idea, even though we didn't tell him it made no practical difference to noise levels. But he could tell the great unwashed in that area that he had acted to fix the problem. It was a real vote getter which is what it was all about in the first instance.
So for weeks to come we flogged the DCA Flying Unit DC3 VH-CAN and F27 navaid calibration aircraft down the 07 ILS having got the techs to jack up the glide path to three degrees. We did Sydney 16 ILS as well.
The idea took on and next we knew the order came down the line to jack up all the Australian ILS from 2.5 degrees to three degrees. That took a lot of traveling between the major airports of Australia including Darwin. ICAO heard about all this and thought it was a splendid way of reducing noise footprints.
Eventually three degrees slope became the standard we have today. You can thank the Labor Member for Padstow for that. It was all a bit of a wank but it fooled most people I think. Whether the number of complaints reduced I have no idea. But something was seen to be done and that was the main thing. The unintended consequences however proved time consuming and expensive in terms of time and money.
You see, it was considered a bit untidy to leave the T-VASIS all over Australia at 2.5 degrees and the ILS at 3 degrees. So we loaded the DC3 and F27 with our theodolites, insect spray, wide floppy hats with corks and sunscreen and even snake bite outfits, and flew all over Australia to recalibrate the numerous T-VASIS to three degrees.
In those days the ICAO standard ILS was set at about 2.5 to 2.75 degrees. My boss Lloyd Milne (former wartime Hudson pilot) was told by his boss Sir Donald Anderson (via the chain of command of course) to suggest a solution. After all it was a political issue. Lloyd scratched his head and came up with the idea to increase the glide slope angle up to three degrees which approached the upper limit for a jet transport approach without increasing the rate of descent too much. The theory being three degrees would mean a steeper angle of approach, therefore less power and less noise foot print. I think it added about an extra 150 feet to the outer marker crossing height four miles out.
The local Member for the Outer Marker (I think it was Padstow) constituency was pleased about that idea, even though we didn't tell him it made no practical difference to noise levels. But he could tell the great unwashed in that area that he had acted to fix the problem. It was a real vote getter which is what it was all about in the first instance.
So for weeks to come we flogged the DCA Flying Unit DC3 VH-CAN and F27 navaid calibration aircraft down the 07 ILS having got the techs to jack up the glide path to three degrees. We did Sydney 16 ILS as well.
The idea took on and next we knew the order came down the line to jack up all the Australian ILS from 2.5 degrees to three degrees. That took a lot of traveling between the major airports of Australia including Darwin. ICAO heard about all this and thought it was a splendid way of reducing noise footprints.
Eventually three degrees slope became the standard we have today. You can thank the Labor Member for Padstow for that. It was all a bit of a wank but it fooled most people I think. Whether the number of complaints reduced I have no idea. But something was seen to be done and that was the main thing. The unintended consequences however proved time consuming and expensive in terms of time and money.
You see, it was considered a bit untidy to leave the T-VASIS all over Australia at 2.5 degrees and the ILS at 3 degrees. So we loaded the DC3 and F27 with our theodolites, insect spray, wide floppy hats with corks and sunscreen and even snake bite outfits, and flew all over Australia to recalibrate the numerous T-VASIS to three degrees.
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Council has no jurisdiction of anything 1 metre or more above ground not supported by anything other than air.
That is ASA and CASA territory.
That is ASA and CASA territory.
Many ERSA noise abatement procedures contain paras such as 'avoid noise sensitive area to NW(or somesuch) of AD.' It is most unusual IMHO to find any that say 'residential areas are to be avoided at all times', and then propose a system of fines if said ERSA rule is breached because of a noise complaint.
I hope this entry is a case of one council person introducing the para without realising the implications, and another person for trying to enforce it.
Pretty difficult to plan a flight to any metro AD and avoid all residential areas in the process.
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Complaints versus Complainers
Everyone complains about something at sometime, whether it be about noise, the government, the weather or the meal you had at a restaurant that was good, but could have been better.
Airports seem to have a special place in the hearts of complainers because they can marshal a cause and have a really good whinge and feel that they have made a difference. The argument "well, the airport was there way before you were" does not wash with these people. If anything, it increases their fully self believed sense of entitlement even further.
You can pick these people - they latch onto a cause with as much gusto as they can muster. They speak about it incessently and any social interaction with them will turn to their issue as sure as a Jabiru engine will self detonate for no reason.
They are consumed by it, and every aircraft heading for 16L/R or leaving on 34L/R hardens their resolve to "Stop the Noise!" even more. At this point the complainer has become irrational in their belief in their cause.
Mainstream media hear the noise and start to feature the complainer in news articles. The complainer, feeling vindicated ("Look! I'm in the paper. I must be right.") steps up by complaining even more. Like that *coughtwatcough* at Kellyville. Every twenty minutes. Every twenty minutes to complain that his amenity is affected even though it is obvious to most sane people that it is not.
And this is where the statistics about noise complaints become skewed. Looking at the ASA noise complaints reports, the single statistic that is missing is how many individual complaints are there? If there are 96 complaints in a month, were there 96 complainants? There will not be. I do recall a noise statistic for YSSY that there were 360 complaints made in a month, by 2 individuals living in Summer Hill (about 6km or so from the threshold of 16R). Husband and wife. Whipped up into a froth of rage over something that whilst it can be annoying becomes, as another poster pointed out, white noise over time.
We see these types of individual at every strata of society, but with even the Gen X'ers becoming a bunch of self-entitled prats, it's going to get worse. As someone on twitter put it the other day: "Because, because....MANUFACTURED OUTRAGE". Well played.
For transparency: I love aviation. If I could live under a flight path, i'd do it in a heartbeat.
Airports seem to have a special place in the hearts of complainers because they can marshal a cause and have a really good whinge and feel that they have made a difference. The argument "well, the airport was there way before you were" does not wash with these people. If anything, it increases their fully self believed sense of entitlement even further.
You can pick these people - they latch onto a cause with as much gusto as they can muster. They speak about it incessently and any social interaction with them will turn to their issue as sure as a Jabiru engine will self detonate for no reason.
They are consumed by it, and every aircraft heading for 16L/R or leaving on 34L/R hardens their resolve to "Stop the Noise!" even more. At this point the complainer has become irrational in their belief in their cause.
Mainstream media hear the noise and start to feature the complainer in news articles. The complainer, feeling vindicated ("Look! I'm in the paper. I must be right.") steps up by complaining even more. Like that *coughtwatcough* at Kellyville. Every twenty minutes. Every twenty minutes to complain that his amenity is affected even though it is obvious to most sane people that it is not.
And this is where the statistics about noise complaints become skewed. Looking at the ASA noise complaints reports, the single statistic that is missing is how many individual complaints are there? If there are 96 complaints in a month, were there 96 complainants? There will not be. I do recall a noise statistic for YSSY that there were 360 complaints made in a month, by 2 individuals living in Summer Hill (about 6km or so from the threshold of 16R). Husband and wife. Whipped up into a froth of rage over something that whilst it can be annoying becomes, as another poster pointed out, white noise over time.
We see these types of individual at every strata of society, but with even the Gen X'ers becoming a bunch of self-entitled prats, it's going to get worse. As someone on twitter put it the other day: "Because, because....MANUFACTURED OUTRAGE". Well played.
For transparency: I love aviation. If I could live under a flight path, i'd do it in a heartbeat.
If I could live under a flight path, i'd do it in a heartbeat.
We had a new CO (Wing Commander Cy Greenwood) - a no nonsense former Beaufighter pilot who became a POW in Japan after he was shot down by a couple of Zero's off Timor. For reasons lost in time (maybe works in progress on 020 (as it was called in those days) we had to use 07 for a couple of days. The noise of four Merlins several times a day at full chat over his house caused the hypnotist to lose his cool and ring the base and blast our CO. We could have told him that only a brave and foolish man would cross Cy "Big Julie" Greenwood.
In no uncertain terms, the CO told him where to go (no political correctness or media fright there in those days). Not only that, the CO told us to deliberately hold down after lift off. Seems the hypnotist would have some patient in a trance when a Lincoln would pass over his house at conservatively 200 feet at +12 boost and 3000 RPM. Now that is a lot of noise I can tell you. The hypnotist quickly got the message.
Coincidence?
At RAAF Pearce in the late 70s our CO was Wg Cdr Bob "Bobo" Greenwood.
A local real estate developer had bought a tract of land under downwind for R/W 18, and one Friday he came onto the base and told the CO to avoid his land over the weekend, as there was a big land sale going on.
Normally, 2FTS didn't operate on weekends, so the developer must have been feeling confident. But Bobo called us all onto duty, and the end of every sortie had to include a low level circuit in the Maccherschmidt to make as much noise as possible on downwind. So, we did.
Didn't make a difference, the land was sold, and the new owners started bleating about the noise straight away.
At RAAF Pearce in the late 70s our CO was Wg Cdr Bob "Bobo" Greenwood.
A local real estate developer had bought a tract of land under downwind for R/W 18, and one Friday he came onto the base and told the CO to avoid his land over the weekend, as there was a big land sale going on.
Normally, 2FTS didn't operate on weekends, so the developer must have been feeling confident. But Bobo called us all onto duty, and the end of every sortie had to include a low level circuit in the Maccherschmidt to make as much noise as possible on downwind. So, we did.
Didn't make a difference, the land was sold, and the new owners started bleating about the noise straight away.
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The greatest threat is weak airport owners ... and property values.
This is untested here
Further, there is nothing to say you can't park your aircraft here... but whether you can land or take off is a different story.
Like I said... unless protection is afforded at the Cwlth level.
At RAAF Pearce in the late 70s our CO was Wg Cdr Bob "Bobo" Greenwood.
