Textron Takes Over Beech.
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Jab, Some doods want to hang onto OWT's because it's easy to find that garbage on google and spruik it. Some blokes just know it all. If you want an aircraft ferried might pay to ask a few strategic questions first 
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Of note Jabba, I was doing a check flight on a fella on a company aircraft, their policy is to run 50 rop 
he said to me 'isn't this the worst spot to run?' 
I said yes and we both discussed LOP! The message is getting out this from an older pilot whose heard all the OWT's, bull**** & lies 
he said to me 'isn't this the worst spot to run?' I said yes and we both discussed LOP! The message is getting out this from an older pilot whose heard all the OWT's, bull**** & lies
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How about some CASA, NTSB, or similar accident data wherein the scenario you described (engine failure due to a dropped spark plug) has been found to be the proximate cause?
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Maybe ferrydude skipped that particular class, when the importance of ensuring spark plugs are in premium condition at all times, was being discussed?? 
You don't want broken pieces from a damaged or faulty spark plug floating around a combustion chamber, with the likelihood of physical damage, just for starters - let alone the well-known potential for preignition/detonation and resultant engine damage, from a damaged spark plug.
The engine damage from preignition/detonation may not be quite as fast as Jabba outlines, but it will surely happen.
It's quite likely that a sizeable number of successful emergency landings after spark plug failure, avoided major crash reports - and therefore the episodes are not recorded in detail - unlike this one, below.
I'd be very happy to have more LAME's with Jabba's attitude and understanding of the issues behind potential engine problems, related to what initially appears to be an un-important episode, such as simply dropping a spark plug.
Pelican's Perch #67:<br>Analysis of an In-Flight Engine Failure - AVweb Features Article
You don't want broken pieces from a damaged or faulty spark plug floating around a combustion chamber, with the likelihood of physical damage, just for starters - let alone the well-known potential for preignition/detonation and resultant engine damage, from a damaged spark plug.
The engine damage from preignition/detonation may not be quite as fast as Jabba outlines, but it will surely happen.
It's quite likely that a sizeable number of successful emergency landings after spark plug failure, avoided major crash reports - and therefore the episodes are not recorded in detail - unlike this one, below.
I'd be very happy to have more LAME's with Jabba's attitude and understanding of the issues behind potential engine problems, related to what initially appears to be an un-important episode, such as simply dropping a spark plug.
Pelican's Perch #67:<br>Analysis of an In-Flight Engine Failure - AVweb Features Article
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ferry dude, how about you show some data disputing my posts? If you can I will be sure to greatly appreciate it.
I could waste hours on trying to educate someone who is possibly not open to learning and wanting to hang onto mistruths. However if you want to engage in educational discussion please quite the taunts and start asking sensible questions. The others here might then stop their sniping at you too.
For those who would like to see just one example, here is the data file plotted and the photos. Fortunately this flight ended with a forced landing at YPPF and the engine shop was able to retrieve the data file and the evidence.
And look really closely to this one.
I could waste hours on trying to educate someone who is possibly not open to learning and wanting to hang onto mistruths. However if you want to engage in educational discussion please quite the taunts and start asking sensible questions. The others here might then stop their sniping at you too.
For those who would like to see just one example, here is the data file plotted and the photos. Fortunately this flight ended with a forced landing at YPPF and the engine shop was able to retrieve the data file and the evidence.
And look really closely to this one.
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ferrydude is just plain out and out wrong.
out of the blue one day a LAME asked me what the corner of a hangar was for.
I looked at him quizzical because I wasnt getting him to do any work.
it's so you got somewhere to kick a dropped spark plug. thats what they are for.
at Forrest a guy in a Bonanza took off and mid climb out heard the most dreadful clanking and vibration, whipped it around under power and just made it back to the strip as the engine quit. my aeroplane was parked beside his one night so I have some very clear photos of the damage.
just a cylinder change indeed.
the cylinder that tore off took out the two beside it in the flogging around.
in the end getting his aircraft out of Forrest cost him over $80,000.
drop a spark plug and dont kick it into the corner of the hangar and you are an idiot. pure and simple.
out of the blue one day a LAME asked me what the corner of a hangar was for.
I looked at him quizzical because I wasnt getting him to do any work.
it's so you got somewhere to kick a dropped spark plug. thats what they are for.
at Forrest a guy in a Bonanza took off and mid climb out heard the most dreadful clanking and vibration, whipped it around under power and just made it back to the strip as the engine quit. my aeroplane was parked beside his one night so I have some very clear photos of the damage.
just a cylinder change indeed.
the cylinder that tore off took out the two beside it in the flogging around.
in the end getting his aircraft out of Forrest cost him over $80,000.
drop a spark plug and dont kick it into the corner of the hangar and you are an idiot. pure and simple.
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Maybe ferrydude skipped that particular class, when the importance of ensuring spark plugs are in premium condition at all times, was being discussed??
You don't want broken pieces from a damaged or faulty spark plug floating around a combustion chamber, with the likelihood of physical damage, just for starters - let alone the well-known potential for preignition/detonation and resultant engine damage, from a damaged spark plug.
The engine damage from preignition/detonation may not be quite as fast as Jabba outlines, but it will surely happen.
It's quite likely that a sizeable number of successful emergency landings after spark plug failure, avoided major crash reports - and therefore the episodes are not recorded in detail - unlike this one, below.
I'd be very happy to have more LAME's with Jabba's attitude and understanding of the issues behind potential engine problems, related to what initially appears to be an un-important episode, such as simply dropping a spark plug.
Pelican's Perch #67:<br>Analysis of an In-Flight Engine Failure - AVweb Features Article
You don't want broken pieces from a damaged or faulty spark plug floating around a combustion chamber, with the likelihood of physical damage, just for starters - let alone the well-known potential for preignition/detonation and resultant engine damage, from a damaged spark plug.
The engine damage from preignition/detonation may not be quite as fast as Jabba outlines, but it will surely happen.
It's quite likely that a sizeable number of successful emergency landings after spark plug failure, avoided major crash reports - and therefore the episodes are not recorded in detail - unlike this one, below.
I'd be very happy to have more LAME's with Jabba's attitude and understanding of the issues behind potential engine problems, related to what initially appears to be an un-important episode, such as simply dropping a spark plug.
Pelican's Perch #67:<br>Analysis of an In-Flight Engine Failure - AVweb Features Article
A small spark plug ceramic fragment falling out of a plug is not likely to cause any harm at all. Small fasteners can bounce around in there and get spat out the exhaust with nothing more than a tiny mark on the cylinder head. I have a picture of that too!
The problem with the ceramic piece is it will usually stay in the plug and either it or the exposed electrode start glowing red hot and become the source of preignition (firing off the fuel before the spark plug does) and the resulting peak pressure is very destructive.
Please DO NOT confuse detonation with preignition. They are completely different things. And very misunderstood. Detonation of a mild or even medium form can go on for the entire life of the engine and not trash it. Medium to heavy detonation will damage spark plugs after a period of time, and then things turn ugly very quickly. Yes the time rams I described above are real and typical of a preignition event. Preignition if not stopped will destroy in a minute or three. The event in the post above lasted about 3 minutes and the damage was done. This was not the most severe case we have on record.
The one that JD was writing about took about 90 seconds to kill that cylinder, and with a holed piston then you only have however long on 5/6 cylinders until the oil is pumped out. LAME's that know say 6-7 minutes, some a bit more but not much.
Thanks for putting up Johns link, it is a good example and I had not thought to post it up.
PS: I forgot, Walter Atkinson is an A&P or LAME.
Last edited by Jabawocky; 29th Dec 2013 at 10:27.
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Don't Drop Components
It is a well known fact that dropping plugs is a major no no and a dropped plug should not be re used. Ceramics and impact don't agree. The cost of a fine wire plug came out of my wages as an apprentice. It hurt and I haven't dropped one since. One should also ensure that no abrasive remains within the plug after cleaning.
I hope Textron is still an american company and it wont be going the way of Continental and Cirrus. If this the case the consolidation of the various successful airframes and with better engines under one banner makes good economics of scale business sense.
I hope Textron is still an american company and it wont be going the way of Continental and Cirrus. If this the case the consolidation of the various successful airframes and with better engines under one banner makes good economics of scale business sense.
Last edited by Oracle1; 28th Dec 2013 at 07:13. Reason: Back on Topic
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You are quite right about some Barons having Lycomings those were the model 56Tc that were in production from 67 -71 with only 92 built. All the Barons I owned had Continentals. I was misled by thinking that Continents sat on their mounts and Lycomings hung from a truss. Whatever I do know that compared to the Cessna twins they took a lot of man hours to decowl particularly the Pressurised ones.
The best climbing one was of course the SFERMA Maquis conversion.
Cessna have stated that they have no intention of restarting production of the Hawker 4000 or Premier 1 but will support them ( at a price ).
The best climbing one was of course the SFERMA Maquis conversion.
Cessna have stated that they have no intention of restarting production of the Hawker 4000 or Premier 1 but will support them ( at a price ).
Cessna have stated that they have no intention of restarting production of the Hawker 4000 or Premier 1 but will support them ( at a price ).
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27/09 you are quite right of course but having worked for Cessna I still like to refer to the old firm as such rather than some faceless conglomerate who are only interested in $$$$ and RoI.
Gordon Field
The way I see it Cessna is still Cessna, Lycoming is still Lycoming, and Beech is still Beech, they just happen to be owned by Textron.
My point of clarification was that Cessna will not be deciding what happens at Beech no more than Beech will decide what happens at Cessna. However Textron as the owner may decide what each of the individual companies may or may not do. Your reference to Cessna made no sense to me as Cessna didn't buy Beech.
The way I see it Cessna is still Cessna, Lycoming is still Lycoming, and Beech is still Beech, they just happen to be owned by Textron.
My point of clarification was that Cessna will not be deciding what happens at Beech no more than Beech will decide what happens at Cessna. However Textron as the owner may decide what each of the individual companies may or may not do. Your reference to Cessna made no sense to me as Cessna didn't buy Beech.
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(Oh sorry, that's because us idiots don't understand LOP and don't know how to run them isn't it )
Of course running LOP was always the blame by any OEM wanting to dodge warranty.
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I am not disputing that detonation and Pre ignition occur, or that a faulty spark plug can cause the problem described. It is simply extremely rare. The sky is not falling. You might have better luck petitioning Textron to redesign the fleet to be able to safely withstand a meteorite hit than a redesign due to the perceived "what ifs" of a dropped spark plug. Now then, who was going to fetch the accident/incident data (forced landings not resulting in a major accident are indeed included) from any national CAA ?
Ferrydude,
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - AWB 20-1 Issue 1 - Spark Plug Care
"If during any stage of servicing a spark plug is dropped, it should be scrapped immediately. Many flaws may not be apparent visually or during any stage of the inspection or testing process but could cause failure of the spark plug during operational service"
"There have been several engine failures that have been attributed to internal breakdown of the ceramic nose core insulator and electrodes of spark plugs. Evidence suggests that many of these failures occurred because of poor cleaning, testing, inspection and handling techniques of spark plugs."
Then have a read of the following:
Pelican's Perch #67:<br>Analysis of an In-Flight Engine Failure - AVweb Features Article
Specifically the section at the end "Likely Culprit -- The Spark Plug"
The following is an excerpt:
"Spark plugs take fearful punishment in operation with the repeated pressure pulses of combustion. But make no mistake: Outside that normal operation, they are exceptionally fragile. They must be handled more carefully than eggs. Dropping them, even as little as one inch onto a hard surface, can damage them by cracking the ceramic, with a later plug failure ruining your day! Mechanics and owners must realize this, and if any spark plug experiences even a minor shock, it must be discarded. Using a damaged plug can destroy an engine, as in this case, not to mention the further risk to the airplane and pilot. Old-time airline mechanics made it a policy that if they dropped a plug from ANY distance, onto ANY surface, they immediately used a ball peen hammer to beat the electrodes and threads to death, making it impossible to use the plug."
But hey, this took me about 10minutes in google to find, so I can understand why you didn't bother to try and find out whether your conceptions were correct or not, what an absurd waste of time!
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - AWB 20-1 Issue 1 - Spark Plug Care
"If during any stage of servicing a spark plug is dropped, it should be scrapped immediately. Many flaws may not be apparent visually or during any stage of the inspection or testing process but could cause failure of the spark plug during operational service"
"There have been several engine failures that have been attributed to internal breakdown of the ceramic nose core insulator and electrodes of spark plugs. Evidence suggests that many of these failures occurred because of poor cleaning, testing, inspection and handling techniques of spark plugs."
Then have a read of the following:
Pelican's Perch #67:<br>Analysis of an In-Flight Engine Failure - AVweb Features Article
Specifically the section at the end "Likely Culprit -- The Spark Plug"
The following is an excerpt:
"Spark plugs take fearful punishment in operation with the repeated pressure pulses of combustion. But make no mistake: Outside that normal operation, they are exceptionally fragile. They must be handled more carefully than eggs. Dropping them, even as little as one inch onto a hard surface, can damage them by cracking the ceramic, with a later plug failure ruining your day! Mechanics and owners must realize this, and if any spark plug experiences even a minor shock, it must be discarded. Using a damaged plug can destroy an engine, as in this case, not to mention the further risk to the airplane and pilot. Old-time airline mechanics made it a policy that if they dropped a plug from ANY distance, onto ANY surface, they immediately used a ball peen hammer to beat the electrodes and threads to death, making it impossible to use the plug."
But hey, this took me about 10minutes in google to find, so I can understand why you didn't bother to try and find out whether your conceptions were correct or not, what an absurd waste of time!
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Waste of time is correct. That's all very nice, an advisory and a technical explanation. I'll try to ask again, please do try and pay attention. Where is the data that suggests this is a likely issue? You know, accident reports from a formal, professional investigation. Stop worrying about spark plugs, non issue.
I think you are winding us us Ferry Dude, one thing for sure though, you are never changing my spark plugs!
My LAME knows better, I watched him drop a plug, after several expletives he chucked it in the bin.
My LAME knows better, I watched him drop a plug, after several expletives he chucked it in the bin.
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Relax, the bloke is trolling. Let's get back to the issue at hand.
Will Texron continue to make Baron and Bonanza aircraft...or will they go the way of Falcon and Commodore
Will Texron continue to make Baron and Bonanza aircraft...or will they go the way of Falcon and Commodore
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Beachie is correct. The topic is: Textron Takes Over Beech
You wish to discuss spark plugs, go start another thread.
You wish to discuss spark plugs, go start another thread.