Go Back  PPRuNe Forums > PPRuNe Worldwide > The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions
Reload this Page >

The Empire Strikes Back! on Colour Defective Pilots

The Pacific: General Aviation & Questions The place for students, instructors and charter guys in Oz, NZ and the rest of Oceania.

The Empire Strikes Back! on Colour Defective Pilots

Old 10th Nov 2014, 19:53
  #501 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,053
Ahem,

PS> It's a long transcript and, as we still may not use 'it', it's pointless to draw inference, gauge or speculate on the outcome. But I am concerned that some very persuasive argument has been omitted from the CVD construct. It is to be hoped that this will be included in the final submission, for it would be mistake to leave an important stone unturned.

There is no reference made to manufacturers MEL for Cathode Ray (CRT) screens, these made for when the colour gun fails and the screens go to monochrome grey scale. It is significant that insofar as Airbus and Boeing are concerned there are no operating restrictions related to the lack of 'colour'. This stands as direct evidence of how much weight manufacturers and certifying authorities place on the 'luxury' of colour display as opposed to symbols and annunciators.

One other, IMO important omission was the Night Vision (NVG) display, where not only is 'colour' sacrificed to monochrome green, but 'perspective' is diminished.

Both very sound argument against restricting CVD pilots from operating in a (nice to have) coloured world. Creampuff has nailed down the legal argument very nicely but the 'operational' considerations could have been reinforced, beyond the existing 'proof' to make absolutely certain that the dinosaurs remain extinct.

Last edited by Kharon; 10th Nov 2014 at 20:07.
Kharon is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2014, 01:32
  #502 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Location: US
Posts: 423
colormax.org

I got an email from a Dr Thomas Azman who runs the above site.
He has a process where he can fit you special lens or contacts and guarantees you will pass the Ishihara test.

Anyone have any experience with this?
20driver is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2014, 01:46
  #503 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: WA
Posts: 1,240
DAMEs and Opthalmologists are aware to look for these lenses
YPJT is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2014, 09:22
  #504 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Australia
Age: 74
Posts: 45
Re Colormax lenses:
There are many variations of lenses that will "help you pass the Ishihara" but they ARE ALL IRRELEVANT. Passing the Ishihara or any other colour vision test, has no bearing or relevance to whether or not you can fly an (any) aircraft competently and safely. To get drawn into discussing these lenses only reinforces the false theory that colour matters in the task of flying safely. I have tried several such lenses out of curiosity, and they are fun to try but useless in normal daily activities.
Arthur Pape is offline  
Old 13th Nov 2014, 10:19
  #505 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Richmond NSW
Posts: 1,206
Dr Arthur Pape wrote:


"To get drawn into discussing these lenses only reinforces the false theory that colour matters in the task of flying safely."


IMHO: I completely agree!
gerry111 is online now  
Old 13th Nov 2014, 22:42
  #506 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 108
Kharon:
There is no reference made to manufacturers MEL for Cathode Ray (CRT) screens, these made for when the colour gun fails and the screens go to monochrome grey scale. It is significant that insofar as Airbus and Boeing are concerned there are no operating restrictions related to the lack of 'colour'. This stands as direct evidence of how much weight manufacturers and certifying authorities place on the 'luxury' of colour display as opposed to symbols and annunciators.
Let's not forget that items such as EFIS displays, reaction times and much more were already covered in enormous detail during the Denison v CAA case 25 years ago. A quick refresher:

8. ...We understand that there are a considerable number of other pilots with defective colour vision who have requested the granting of licences which do not contain a condition prohibiting their piloting aircraft at night. For that reason the respondent indicated that it wished to conduct this case as a test case. Mr Rose, therefore, informed the Tribunal that the respondent intended to present its case in a manner which would encompass not only the applicant's situation but also broader issues relating generally to defective colour vision. At the request of the respondent the Attorney-General granted legal aid to the applicant to ensure that he was not disadvantaged by the respondent presenting his case in that manner. The matters which we have to consider in these proceedings have consequently been extended well beyond those which the applicant originally sought to raise, that is to say whether his defective colour vision made it unsafe for him personally to pilot an aircraft at night. The proceedings have taken 28 hearing days. In order to reach conclusions on those matters raised it is necessary for us to address a number of questions. Because of the amount of evidence given we cannot set all of it out in detail; however, we have taken the whole of it into account in making our decision and in expressing conclusions on the various matters raised for our consideration.
Remember, the O'Brien case only had 3 hearing days and essentially picked up where Denison left off. There shouldn't have been any need to re-examine all the issues such as EFIS as these were already found to be a non-issue. No doubt this will be re-emphasised in the written submissions.

59. The respondent arranged for the Tribunal to see the reproduction of the cockpit of a Boeing 767 aircraft in a flight simulator and to have the use of the instruments demonstrated to us in simulated flight by Captain J. R. Rhind. Characteristics of modern aircraft instrumentation were described to us by Mr Chatfield. He showed a number of photographic slides which demonstrated the general lack of colour in the cockpits of older aircraft and the increasing use of colour, and the greater sophistication of that use, in more modern aircraft. He said that, although initially the new instrumentation had been used principally in larger passenger transport aircraft, lighter aircraft were now being equipped with sophisticated Electronic Flight Instrument Systems ("EFIS").
61. The research conducted by Professor Cole and Dr Macdonald was designed to ascertain whether the response time taken by a person with defective colour vision to obtain information from EFIS displays was longer than that taken by persons with normal colour vision. In order to carry out that research they took photographs of part of the EFIS instrumentation in a simulator, namely the Horizontal Situation Indicator ("HSI"); different photographs were taken of the HSI as it was at various stages of a simulated flight
I see that CASA have once again trotted Cole out to give evidence this time despite having his research severely discredited in the Denison case:

64. There is one major reason for querying generally whether the research justified any conclusion being drawn in respect of the task of piloting an aircraft. That is that the subjects were not experienced pilots and were shown still photographs not sequentially related to one another. During the flight of an aircraft the pilot is constantly scanning his instruments; he does not suddenly come upon an instrument displaying certain information. He has been seeing that instrument at frequent intervals for however long the flight has lasted. Consequently, whenever he sees it, he does so in the context of the flight. He knows what has gone before and if, as is usual, the flight is being conducted in accordance with a flight plan, what he can reasonably expect to come next. The greater his experience as a pilot using such instrumentation, the greater will be his understanding of its display and consequently his ability to derive from it in the context of the flight the information which he requires in order to fly the aircraft safely.
65. ...In the course of the hearing we heard a considerable amount of evidence about the colour coding of that instrumentation, about the other ways in which it conveys information and also about aural warnings which accompany instrumentation displays indicating equipment malfunctions which may be serious. We also heard a good deal of evidence about the weather radar part of the EFIS.
74. It was suggested to us that, while we might find that no single difficulty which pilots with defective colour vision might encounter in acquiring information from colour-coded displays would result on its own in a significant risk to the safety of air navigation, the combination of several difficulties experienced together would have that result, as it reduced their ability to take appropriate action sufficiently quickly in a situation of emergency. The delay in acquiring any one piece of information and, therefore, in responding to the situation to which it relates might itself be insignificant. But, if a number of pieces of information had to be acquired and responded to at the same time, the total delay might be significant. Having regard to the nature of emergencies which may arise during the flight of an aircraft, we have come to the conclusion that in practical terms the total delay, if any, will itself be insignificant and that the risk to the safety of air navigation will still not be significant or unacceptable.
The above quotes are just a small snapshot of how extensively the tribunal in Denison considered all these sorts of issues and much more (there are actually 15 paragraphs in the decision which discuss EFIS alone).

No doubt the current tribunal will be carefully reading through Denison in the lead up to making a judgement this time around.

Essentially, the only thing that has changed since then is that we now have 25 years of demonstrated safe flying experience by CVD pilots at all levels of the industry who continue to perform no differently to colour normals. There is also of course the backwards thinking soon to be ex-PMO
brissypilot is offline  
Old 14th Nov 2014, 12:12
  #507 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Richmond NSW
Posts: 1,206
"...when the colour gun fails and the screen goes to monochrome grey scale."


Whoever came up with that, certainly has no understanding of how colour CRT's actually work.
gerry111 is online now  
Old 14th Nov 2014, 13:00
  #508 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,857
Whoever came up with that, certainly has no understanding of how colour CRT's actually work.
Gerry111,
I have a lot of hours on aircraft where that was a regular occurrence, I do not really care how CRTs work, only that the defect (EADI/EHSI going to grayscales) was covered in the MELs.

Does it occure to you that it might be the signal generators in a (early) glass cockpit, that feed the CRT.

The writer of that post also has many hours on a similar type from the same OEM, same problem and same MEL.

Don't be so quick to jump in and tell people they do not know what they are talking about.

Tootle pip!!
LeadSled is online now  
Old 14th Nov 2014, 20:44
  #509 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,053
Oh dear;

Well, I'll leave it up to you Gerry old chap pick one from the list below, one as suits you best.

"[these} made for when the colour gun fails and the screens go to monochrome grey scale."
Or:

"[these} made for when the colour 'gun' fails and the screens go to monochrome grey scale."
Or:

"[these} made for when the colour fails and the screens go to monochrome grey scale."
Not that it would have any relevance to the CVD issue, but it may amuse the odd pedant or two; those with a penchant for semantics.

Fire away -
Kharon is offline  
Old 15th Nov 2014, 14:03
  #510 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Richmond NSW
Posts: 1,206
LeadSled wrote:


"Don't be so quick to jump in and tell people that they do not know what they are talking about."


I'd only ever do that LeadSled, if I had a pretty good reason to do so.


Gentlemen, no offence was meant! Surely, you all do realise that I'm a firm supporter of Dr Arthur Pape and the whole issue regarding CVD?


But as Clinton McKenzie (thankfully) notes, Colour Cathode Ray Tubes are something with which I've had a fair bit of professional experience over a rather long period of time. That's 39 years.


So LeadSled and Kharon, I wasn't picking a fight with you nor any others. I simply believe that in order to have a credible argument, facts are rather important.


I'm quite happy to explain to you all the technical theory about colour CRT's. But I can absolutely promise you one thing. If your colour CRT suddenly goes to monochrome, the fault is definitely NOT THE CRT!


A colour CRT has three colour guns. Red Green and Blue.


Good fault finding, LeadSled! The problem would sure be within the electronics driving the colour CRT.


But as previously mentioned, this is irrelevant to where we are at.

Last edited by gerry111; 15th Nov 2014 at 14:17.
gerry111 is online now  
Old 16th Nov 2014, 07:30
  #511 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Newcastle
Posts: 20
what is a CRT?

A CRT is a cathode ray tube. These were the first coloured screens used in glass cockpits. Most glass cockpits nowadays use LCD displays but the principle is the same.

I would draw attention to this fact; if an aeroplane's instruments cannot be safely interpreted by a pilot whose colour vision just meets current standards, then that aircraft is unairworthy.

The pilots who won the second world war, won it on black and white instruments.
Fueldrum is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2014, 09:16
  #512 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: lancs.UK
Age: 72
Posts: 1,196
The pilots who won the second world war, won it on black and white instruments.
But they didn't have a load of lawyers and beaurocrats to keep a gravy-train rolling for.

Agree, re-" colour gun" Use a crap, ill-founded term and you destroy your argument and your credibility.

The issue is, "if colour-generation fails, the display becomes greyscale."

(which, apparently,is exactly what CVD people see, anyway.)
OTOH, CASA seemed to have blundered into another farce,with Jabiru.

They really know how to turn the searchlight on their owni ncompetence!
cockney steve is offline  
Old 19th Nov 2014, 11:23
  #513 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Perth
Posts: 59
CVD people do not see everything in grey scale.
F.Nose is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2014, 02:45
  #514 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 4,857
CVD people do not see everything in grey scale.
F.Nose,
I was not implying they do, the point was that the Type Certificate holders of the aircraft, and the FAA do not regard the colour EFIS of such importance that loss of colour should restrict the operation of the aircraft.
Hence, it cannot be said that standard colour vision is required to operate the aircraft "safely", whatever "safely" means.
More accurately, loss of colour (or non-standard colour perception) does not materially inject any additional risk into the operation of the aircraft.

Gerry 111,
As a matter of fact, the CRTs referred to were, in domestic use, called Sony Trinitron tubes. Our tecs. reckoned that the very expensive Approved Replacement Parts differed from the commercially available tubes only in having a part number and a serial number on a sticker on the tube, plus associated 8130.3 or equivalent paperwork.

Tootle pip!!


PS 1:
re-" colour gun" Use a crap, ill-founded term and you destroy your argument and your credibility.
C.Steve,
Absolute rubbish.

which, apparently,is exactly what CVD people see, anyway.
Absolute rubbish, I guess that destroys your argument and your credibility.

PS2:

Many moons ago, BOAC ( predecessor to BA) bought some second hand B707-320, that were fitted with Collins FD-108 FDS. Said instruments had pretty colours, like the blue of the sky and the brown of the land, and sundry red warning flags, each of which also said what the flag was, in black. BOAC pulled all these instruments out, and replaced them with "proper" black and white Smiths equivalents.

Last edited by LeadSled; 22nd Nov 2014 at 02:58.
LeadSled is online now  
Old 22nd Nov 2014, 06:29
  #515 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2007
Location: Perth
Posts: 59
I understand your point LeadSled and totally agree. Most operators also have exemptions to operate into aerodromes with unserviceable slope guidance so the same argument could be applied to the influence of CVD on PAPI.

My comment however was in relation to that of cockney steve's.

The issue is, "if colour-generation fails, the display becomes greyscale."

(which, apparently,is exactly what CVD people see, anyway.)
We don't need to create wrong impressions here.

Last edited by F.Nose; 22nd Nov 2014 at 06:43. Reason: Clarity
F.Nose is offline  
Old 22nd Nov 2014, 09:45
  #516 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: lancs.UK
Age: 72
Posts: 1,196
Gentlemen, thank you for the clarification.

It was stated, unchallenged, earlier in the thread, that displays reverted to greyscale.
I can see that happening with a "colour- generation" fault. However, a CRT relies on 3 different guns each of which fires it's electron beam through a hole in a Shadow.Mask (a sheet of perforated gauze) to illuminate "it's" 1/3-portion of a compound phosphor dot printed on the inside of the screen......
So, if A (not "the" A colour-gun fails, you will get different, distorted colours to those intended (or nothing, if the part of the display was intendedin that gun's pure part of the spectrum.
. The Trinitron tube differed from a conventional tube only in that it's shadow-mask had slits instead of circular holes and the phosphor "dot" was thus a 3-part strip. The guns still had to align accurately to fire their beams through the slit and illuminate the correct bit of phosphor.
A super quality product, the domestic TV's were sold with a 3-year guarantee inthe UK, making it as cheap to buy over 3 years , than renting...Every year after that was a "free" TV.


@ LEADSLED Before you rip into me, please note I said "APPARENTLY"... I am not at all familiar with the actual manifestations of CVD, apart from the odd colour-blind individual I have questioned. I got the impression they all saw their colour-deficient part of the spectrum in grey and were thus able to make a fair guess as to what,if any colour was present.

Perhaps you could enlighten us all and expand on this ?

Absolute rubbish refuted, can I have my credibility back now? pretty please.
cockney steve is offline  
Old 23rd Nov 2014, 12:30
  #517 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Richmond NSW
Posts: 1,206
Cockney Steve, I very closely agree with your understanding of how Sony Trinitron colour CRTs work.


You are correct that if one of the colour guns fail, the displayed picture will be anything but monochrome.


(For example: If the red gun fails, the pix will be cyan. If the green gun fails, the pix will be magenta. If the blue gun fails, the pix will be yellow.)


The same goes for an old analogue television with any type of colour CRT.


LeadSled, I'm rather unsurprised that a relatively low cost consumer product, (In this case a Sony Trinitron colour CRT) found its way into the commercial aviation market at much greater cost! The Sony Trinitrons are a little unusual from other colour CRTs in that they were made from lead crystal glass. And so are pretty heavy.


A 1967 Bonanza (with which I am a little bit familiar) needed a new PA speaker. The owner discovered that it was actually a rear speaker from a sixties General Motors vehicle. So a search found a brand new old stock automotive part. It is the same item! Of course, the old faulty part remains fitted as lives could be in jeopardy if we were to fit the new one!


My apologies for thread drift! Back to CVD.

Last edited by gerry111; 23rd Nov 2014 at 12:56.
gerry111 is online now  
Old 23rd Nov 2014, 19:20
  #518 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2010
Location: Styx Houseboat Park.
Posts: 2,053
Heigh-ho.

Just won a beer and I get to add this thread to my ignore list. The bet ?; that before the end of the page, the irresistible urge, to produce a pointless diatribe on the irrelevant technical details of the archaic CRT would just have to be provided.

Hoy-day, what a sweep of vanity comes this way! (Timon)
Ta ta..
Kharon is offline  
Old 24th Nov 2014, 03:21
  #519 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: melbourne
Posts: 9
cvd case update?

any update on cvd case? was not today the 24th november the final day of hearing?
aerospace11 is offline  
Old 24th Nov 2014, 21:02
  #520 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Oct 2014
Location: melbourne
Posts: 9
cvd case progress?

was the 24th november meant to be final day of cvd hearing? if so how did it go and when is the result likely? or has it already come? would appreciate a response
aerospace11 is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us Archive Advertising Cookie Policy Privacy Statement Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.