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Ambo runway incusion

Old 15th Nov 2013, 09:19
  #21 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Cab of a Freight Train
Age: 36
Posts: 447
I've gotta say I'm concerned at some of the comments here. "You missed him, he missed you, suck it up", "These things happen, leave it alone", you can surely tell the reason why "these things happen" going by these comments.

Yes, shit happens. No argument there from me. Never will be, either. But to suggest essentially sweeping it under the rug is astounding. For me, if you start rolling on the reciprocal runway as I am turning, or established on, final I will report the incident.

Not because I want to see you keelhauled, but because the potential for my bugsmasher becoming a KingAir's hood ornament exists - and if it is a near-miss this time, what happens next time? Or the time after that? Sooner or later, "Shit happens" will result in someone - possibly one of you - getting dead.

We have the means to highlight incidents like this quickly and effectively now - why not use them? Learn from them? Try and prevent them?

But he/she may have been on the final leg of a brutally long shift and had a lapse of judgement.
Not having a go, but here's an example. He's had a right prick of a shift. Lots of flying, lots of approaches, he's tired. Are the operators fatigue management policies sufficient? What controls are there in place for situations like this - or is the self-reporting method the only one? People are the worst judges of their own fatigue. Can the operator do something to assist in eliminating these tiring shifts? Not if they aren't aware of the incident, no, they can't.

If I stuff up, learn from my mistakes. They may just prevent you making them.
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Old 15th Nov 2013, 09:55
  #22 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: dans un cercle dont le centre est eveywhere et circumfernce n'est nulle part
Posts: 2,606
Flanker;

The saying is generic and not aimed at you in particular. Apologies for any upset. Talking with the pilot or his employer is a good idea.

Treating the episode as an educational experience for both pilots usually gives you the moral high ground without undue abrasiveness toward anyone in particular.

Last edited by Frank Arouet; 15th Nov 2013 at 10:00. Reason: Spelling of course.
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Old 15th Nov 2013, 14:23
  #23 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Perth, WA
Posts: 327
Flanker, I appreciate it's disconcerting. A similar thing happened to me a few weeks ago after I'd joined downwind for 23 (with broadcasts) only to have a Jabiru blast off from 05 as I was late downwind. (In this case the element of the ambo and the level of expected professionalism was, of course, not a factor). The Jab was RA Aus registered, but I don't know that I'd draw any conclusions from that. I believe that the pilot probably had a fault in his receiver, or had the transceiver volume turned down.

The saving grace was that he did at least give a taxi call (of a sort) but after that it was pretty poor - accepting that I was hard for him to see, he also missed other ground traffic taxying for 23 and taxyed onto the strip without pausing. With a bit different timing, he could have met me head-on on my final, or could have met a C152 on its take-off roll. Fortunately, there was enough look-out and awareness all round to avoid Mr McGoo as he blasted north. Being charitable, the fact that he didn't respond to calls on the CTAF frequency made it clear that he was most likely not receiving, or not listening.

In your case, with 2-way communication established and the aircraft details available, I think a polite follow-up would be appropriate. I'd have also done that but by the time we'd re-arranged the circuit traffic, including accommodating a few new joins, I have to admit that I'd forgotten the call-sign. While there are certainly worse things that can happen, I should have followed it up. If an enquiry meant the pilot in the future at least unmuted his squelch to check for audio volume on start-up (as I and many others do), the follow-up would have been worthwhile.
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Old 16th Nov 2013, 01:39
  #24 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Australia
Posts: 28
Hey Flanker,

I know you are done with this but I'll make a few points. The relative levels of experience or cpl vs ppl has nothing to do with right and wrong, what rules apply or the amount of leeway you get. If his flight had any form of priority he should communicate that to you. You fulfilled your requirements (more than minimum really) and had better situational awareness, I think a well done for potentially avoiding an accident is in order and if more ppls were as aware it would make many cpls happier!!

One more thing, this happens everywhere in all operations. Just recently a jet taxied out at a busy WA ctaf, we could see them as we were coming in, they did a ctaf taxi call, No call on center until they had backtracked and lined up (dodging cobt I imagine) then no other calls on ctaf. The only way we would separate was visually. This is not some small time jet operator either.

You just have to manage on the day, like you have, and if it's a close call talk to them or report it.

Cheers
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Old 16th Nov 2013, 04:44
  #25 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 927
Aren't you supposed to include the runway in your taxi call? Did the ambo do that? If so, which runway did he say he was taxiing for?
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Old 16th Nov 2013, 06:37
  #26 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jun 2011
Location: Next door to the wrong neighbours
Posts: 242
Some good discussion on this subject. Flanker, you missed each other and you have now had a flying lesson that money can't buy.
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Old 20th Nov 2013, 10:27
  #27 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: somewhereovertherainbow
Posts: 15
Good job understanding what was going on, and situational awareness is, as you've found out, very important. However if this guy is an ambulance pilot then this isn't his first ball game. I don't think calling the company or reporting him will do anything productive. Surely he realized his mistake but said his departure call normally because he is a professional. If you decide to stay in GA for decades like he did you will certainly see this many times and in other variations. Communication is very important. There's no such thing as overcommunicating or asking questions or giving suggestions on a CTAF. However dobbing someone in because you were scared is not really a constructive solution in my opinion. You should have raised the question before turning base with the pilot in question, not on the internet.
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Old 20th Nov 2013, 10:51
  #28 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Perth, WA
Posts: 327
There's nothing here to suggest that the OP's attitude or manners are anything other than humility and politeness. Quite wrong in my view to reduce the situation he described to 'dobbing in'. He's received some constructive suggestions, which have hopefully helped him come to a view of how to handle the situation. My earlier post talks about a level of CTAF communication, which I agree is very important. By the same token, a CTAF frequency is no place to have a full-on discussion, if that's what's required.
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Old 20th Nov 2013, 11:12
  #29 (permalink)  
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Nov 2013
Location: Australia
Age: 41
Posts: 13
Hey Vfrstar,
Where were the questions from the guy in the king air who has spent so many years in GA?
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Old 20th Nov 2013, 21:37
  #30 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 1,662
As i was turning final he gave a rolling call for an intersection departure rwy 19! So there i was, rolling out on final to see a King Air starting his roll.
Once the King Air is outside the gable markers for RWY 01 he's no longer on RWY 01. If it started rolling from the intersection of RWY 01 / 19 while you were in the turn to final (ie not established on final), then he was probably actually outside the limits of RWY 01 by the time you finished turning and were established final and therefore you were OK to land.

I may not have been good etiquette, but its not clear to me that it was actually against the rules.
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Old 20th Nov 2013, 23:00
  #31 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,881
Was performing a low level curcuit on rwy 01
I would suggest that this probably contributed to the situation occurring. We all have a picture in our mind of how long it will take an aircraft to complete its' circuit and then someone comes along and throws in a "low level" and does a circuit in half the usual time. The ambo pilot probably thought to himself that he had plenty of time up his sleeve. I see a lot doing these "low level" circuits, presumably at 500 ft. I would have thought you'd do a low level circuit if you cruise at 50 knots, not 100.


I'll never forget the ambo pilot at Latrobe Valley that pulled out onto runway 03 a total of 3 times after quickly evacuating as there was a string of low level ultralights doing touch and go's. Every time he pulled out someone would call final. Ambo finally said on radio "I'm just trying to do my bloody job here" and he was hounded for his comment. I felt sorry for him and the passenger in the rear; probably gave him a few extra grey hairs. Wally would remember this happening (although it wasn't Wally though from memory).
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Old 21st Nov 2013, 02:07
  #32 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: The Hornets Nest, NSW
Posts: 833
The opposite to Wally, I headed from multi crew RPT (of which I had many years in various roles and turboprop aircraft types) into the aeromed world in the recent past. To say that it was an eye-opener to begin with would be an understatement as I hadn't flown single pilot in the 6-7 years previous.

No, I was not the aeromed pilot in this instance but there is nothing inherently different about flying the aircraft single pilot (I'll keep my balls where they belong though Wally, although I do understand your analogy... ), though I will say that they workload is different and comes at different times in either operation. Some will argue but the aeroplane does not know it only has one person flying it. Those calling for either pilot to be "educated", did you ever stop to think that they both may have over transmitted each other at exactly the same time and/or that the aeromed pilot may have been tx'ing on the Centre frequency while the OP was making his CTAF call? Any number of James Reason's holes may well have or did line-up on that day and is the OP absolutely sure to this day that the answer he/she thought they heard was from that aircraft?

Of recent times I have conducted a couple of Medevac status flights and all around me people could not have been more accommodating or obliging! A big thank-you to the 6-7 aircraft in the Wagga circuit a few weeks ago, who all worked together and made room for us to get out quickly off 05 off to Sydney and also to the Rex crew at Griffith last week who mentioned for us to taxi out in front of them for Sydney as well even though they were first to call on the CTAF and to the other holding point. They didn't have to do that and it is little things like that that mean sometimes precious minutes to our patients and medical staff in the back. The same thing applies when we get to Sydney and need a runway out of turn or sequence. I always ask ground to convey our thanks for the disruption to everyone else that our operation does sometimes cause.

None of us ever push it or force our way in front of anyone else but occasionally we might ask you if it is OK that we do something or other out of turn. We'll only ever ask you if it is OK, not deliberately go out of our way to get in yours. It is all about give and take.
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Old 21st Nov 2013, 11:48
  #33 (permalink)  
 
Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Brisbane
Posts: 1,441
I've gotta say I'm concerned at some of the comments here. "You missed him, he missed you, suck it up", "These things happen, leave it alone", you can surely tell the reason why "these things happen" going by these comments.

Yes, shit happens. No argument there from me. Never will be, either. But to suggest essentially sweeping it under the rug is astounding. For me, if you start rolling on the reciprocal runway as I am turning, or established on, final I will report the incident.

Not because I want to see you keelhauled, but because the potential for my bugsmasher becoming a KingAir's hood ornament exists - and if it is a near-miss this time, what happens next time? Or the time after that? Sooner or later, "Shit happens" will result in someone - possibly one of you - getting dead.

We have the means to highlight incidents like this quickly and effectively now - why not use them? Learn from them? Try and prevent them?

Quote:
But he/she may have been on the final leg of a brutally long shift and had a lapse of judgement.
Not having a go, but here's an example. He's had a right prick of a shift. Lots of flying, lots of approaches, he's tired. Are the operators fatigue management policies sufficient? What controls are there in place for situations like this - or is the self-reporting method the only one? People are the worst judges of their own fatigue. Can the operator do something to assist in eliminating these tiring shifts? Not if they aren't aware of the incident, no, they can't.

If I stuff up, learn from my mistakes. They may just prevent you making them.
Here here!
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