10 dead in 42 days

[Perspective]

ShagPile,
"Ok the list is endless, yet the utility/safety/legislation is unbalanced with aviation. I'd like to see a study pair up flying experience/currency improving safety against lesser maintenance standards, like getting rid of TBO's and doing maintenance by inspection (oil analysis, etc). On a tangent, what kind of stupid idea is it pulling a new engine to pieces after ~2000hrs, then adding that rebuild risk to what could have otherwise been a nice working engine for another 2000hrs+."

Renagademan,
"like your 2000 hr TBO example that I agree is a poorly thought through ruling...often provocative rather than preventative maintenance"

Jack Ranga,
"Whenever a group of LAME's have vested interests they will protect them, fiercely"

What the F$#& are you guys on. Honestly. Read your own posts again, and again, and have a think about what your suggesting/insinuating.
First we have someone suggesting TBO's are "Stupid", then lowering maintenance standards and see what happens,

Then we get someone suggesting TBO's are poorly thought through, Not arrived at through Generations of Aircraft Engine Building and maintenance experience gained by the Majors, including now Rotax,

and Finally, we have a suggestion that the only reason we have maintenance Regs is due to a Country, Nay, worldwide conspiracy by Maintainers, specifically qualified ones for Job Protection!!

let thy head bangeth!! Let the Professional Pilots out there do what they do well, day in/day out and for Christ's sake, let the maintainers do what they are trained to do and have a think about the fact that the manufacturer's have just a little bit more of an idea about how they want their machines maintained than you.

[Perspective]

Good luck to you sir.
This is a topic far too broad to cover in a few
Pages of text, and a bit off topic anyway.
If treated right, I would happily let them go maybe 10%
Past TBO. That's it.

[Jack Ranga]

What am I on cuz? Man flu medication at the moment, it's pretty serious jazz, however, I don't think it's affecting my critical thought.

I'll keep it short, to the point. I've had a few run-ins with LAME's over the years as an aircraft owner. Blatant self interest. One was with a clown in the Sydney basin who instead of telling the truth, putting a logical argument (and quote) lied to me about special permits to fly. He lost a $16,000 job over that. Summarising for you: blatant self interest group protecting a status quo that feathers a nest quite nicely

[Wally Mk2]

'JR' I'd say that there are somewhat shifty people both sides of the fence there, A/C owners & spanner-men. Both have an agenda, right or wrong it's human nature for some to think unwise at times.

As for TBO's, well they are a bit like SWL's on cranes for EG. The crane could handle usually twice the SWL as placarded on the Jib but for a whole variety of reasons mainly to keep it as safe as possible it's halved or thereabouts because of unknown handling of same during it's nominated lifetime. Same goes for an A/C engine in many ways as you can't rely on an A/C owner to treat, respect & service an A/C's engine exactly to the manufacturers specs during it's whole life mainly 'cause of cost, the varied environment these engines can & do run in & the amount of different operators over the say 2000 hrs of it's 'expected' life.
Continuing on past an engines TBO on condition is testament to the fact that they 'may' run longer given a certain set of parameters met but that same 'acceptance' or belief isn't extended to commercial Ops, now I wonder why that is? Obviously that comes back to public safety & risk, the "SWL" factor:-).
A line in the engines 'sand' regrading hrs it could run has to be drawn somewhere for the good of all & the manufacturers are also covering their ass here as in 2day's crazy litigious world who'd in their right minds would wanna produce anything other than say cotton wool!

Wmk2

[Creampuff]

Actually, Perspective, the discussion about TBOs is directly on topic.

I will bet Brooklyn Bridge to a brick that none of the 10 deaths in the last 42 days was caused by an engine being past TBO.

Continuing on past an engines TBO on condition is testament to the fact that they 'may' run longer given a certain set of parameters met but that same 'acceptance' or belief isn't extended to commercial Ops, now I wonder why that is?

Wonder no more!

It’s because of the ‘mystique of aviation’ and the warm inner glow of the blissful ignorance arising from the belief that an engine before TBO is ‘safe’ and an engine past TBO is ‘not safe’.

The left engine on Chieftain VH-MZK was estimated to have had only 262 hours since its last overhaul and the right 1,395. Were those engines ‘safe’?

[Wally Mk2]

'creamy' like life itself NOTHING is guaranteed & as with all things mechanical there is & will always be the unknown so the rule makers do their best to have us safe & have to draw that line in the sand somewhere, it can't be open slather just because someone says but my engine is now 3000 hrs old 'cause the next engine could blow up at 220 hrs since new. Now whether that level of safety is adequate for any one individual is subjective & if you (you as in anyone) hops into a plane you take the risk, brand new engine or one with several hundred hrs above recommended O/Haul risk is still there.

It's all about choice at the end of the day I rarely fly in a SE plane full stop but that's my choice:-)


Wmk2

[onetrack]

An excellent article link, sinbinned - but I believe the recreational area of flying needs to have more publically-available reports of results of investigations into recreational flying accidents - and the particular reasons for those accidents disseminated more widely amongst the RA fraternity.

In my opinion, many recreational flyers do not impose upon themselves the necessary self-discipline and attention to detail that's required for aviation safety. This discipline is much more obvious in GA aviation, where a pilot is more likely to be part of a disciplined chain of associated operators.

I think the greatest concern centres around RA pilots who study, and pass exams, but who still fail to have a solid grasp of the many intricacies of basic aviation principles that are crucial to survival.

Whenever I read of an aviation accident that can be sheeted home to carelessness, a gung-ho attitude, and a simple lack of understanding of the behaviour and limits of their aircraft, I am forever reminded of that neat bumper sticker I sighted many years ago - "Dead Pilots Society - continuously practising random acts of good airmanship".

[Jack Ranga]

Wal-star, you and I both know there are dodges on either side. My first impression of dealing with LAME's was this complete prick who thought he had me by the nuts because he was the only one on the field and the plane I bought was out of annual/100 hourly. He was a fair chance of getting the work until I caught him out lieing.

We ALL have self interest, my profession does, so does yours. When you (not you Wal) get on here and bull**** about it, makes me laugh a bit

[Up-into-the-air]

Whyalla and casa

The following, sinbinned, makes some interesting reading:

Whyalla VH-MZK | Assistance to the Aviation Industry

[Perspective]

Jack, I'm disheartened to hear about stories
Like yours, unfortunately not that uncommon, I
Acknowledge there are some operators out there like that
But don't tarnish all with that brush.

[RenegadeMan]

I came across this document from RA-Aus and thought it relevant to this thread.

Safety: Recent RA-Aus accident history

Very interesting reading sinbinned, thanks for posting

What the F$#& are you guys on. Honestly. Read your own posts again, and again, and have a think about what your suggesting/insinuating.
First we have someone suggesting TBO's are "Stupid", then lowering maintenance standards and see what happens,

Then we get someone suggesting TBO's are poorly thought through, Not arrived at through Generations of Aircraft Engine Building and maintenance experience gained by the Majors, including now Rotax,

and Finally, we have a suggestion that the only reason we have maintenance Regs is due to a Country, Nay, worldwide conspiracy by Maintainers, specifically qualified ones for Job Protection!!

let thy head bangeth!! Let the Professional Pilots out there do what they do well, day in/day out and for Christ's sake, let the maintainers do what they are trained to do and have a think about the fact that the manufacturer's have just a little bit more of an idea about how they want their machines maintained than you.

If there's one thing that demonstrates a narrow, closed down mind its the expression of incredulity and self righteousness when someone postures an 'us and them' attitude which makes broad and uneducated assumptions about the people on here, who they are, what their experience is.

You can bang your head all you like Perspective (and may it, through some bizarre warp in the space/time continuum, give you some!) but the fact is that the 2000 hr TBO regime is not a guaranteed solution to the many issues caused by forced maintenance at engine-hours expiration and at best is a compromise solution that often doesn't take into account numerous variables. With the engine monitoring technology we now have it would be far better to log and track usage and come up with an alternative set of rules/guidelines. Engine management computers that log running stats over the engine's life and can be interrogated have been in cars for decades; It's madness that we can't do something similar in aircraft. (Or alternatively we could just shutdown all conversation on this subject because people like you think we're all on something for even uttering such sacrilegious notions....)

I too have experienced engineers attempting to work me over and charge extraordinary fees that were unwarranted for things that didn't really need to be done. Like Wally Mk2 said, there are shifty people in both arenas, a/c owners/operators and engineers.

So before deciding to bang your head maybe you could articulate some intelligent arguments around some of these concepts and add to the debate rather than just castigating people.

[Flying Binghi]

...add to the debate...

Re engine TBO discussion, could i suggest a new thread as commentry under the heading "10 Dead in 42 days" is not a good look..

[Perspective]

Fair enough Renagademan,
ill try to be a bit more articulate.

[Jack Ranga]

Perspective, as I've said to Wal, tools on both side! The incident I spoke of wasn't isolated unfortunately. I used to ba tradie once, none of the trades I worked amongst had the captive & regulated market LAME's have.

[sinbinned]

Thanks up in the air, working my way through it.