APS Is it worth the money?
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APS Is it worth the money?
This question has been posed by a few people who knew that I had attended the Caboolture Engine Management Seminar earlier this year. My short answer was 'Yes - in spades'
These Advanced Pilots Seminars are put on by General Aviation Modifications Inc. the mob that make GAMI injectors. The quantity and quality of the information presented was astounding. With too many hours behind big bore Continentals I thought there wouldn't be much extra I could learn. I was very wrong and had a number of old wives tales ( OWT's ) well and truly discredited.
Any pilot who wants to know how mixture affects timing and peak internal cylinder pressure and how these are related to engine power, economy and longevity should consider catching one of these seminars.
Anyone who believes lead is needed to lubricate and cushion valves should attend.
Anyone who believes the that everything in the owners manual is good for your engine should attend.
And so on and so forth .....
What I found best about it was that all the information was backed up with modern data, not passed-down information from dubious sources.
Apart from anything else, the information learned can lead to great savings in the operation of an engine. Knowledge on interpretation of what the gauges are telling you in abnormal situations could save not only the engine but also your life. At the very least proper interpretation of the instruments can quickly point your LAME to a problem area, saving many $$$$$.
Just my 2 bob's worth. Cheers, RA
These Advanced Pilots Seminars are put on by General Aviation Modifications Inc. the mob that make GAMI injectors. The quantity and quality of the information presented was astounding. With too many hours behind big bore Continentals I thought there wouldn't be much extra I could learn. I was very wrong and had a number of old wives tales ( OWT's ) well and truly discredited.
Any pilot who wants to know how mixture affects timing and peak internal cylinder pressure and how these are related to engine power, economy and longevity should consider catching one of these seminars.
Anyone who believes lead is needed to lubricate and cushion valves should attend.
Anyone who believes the that everything in the owners manual is good for your engine should attend.
And so on and so forth .....
What I found best about it was that all the information was backed up with modern data, not passed-down information from dubious sources.
Apart from anything else, the information learned can lead to great savings in the operation of an engine. Knowledge on interpretation of what the gauges are telling you in abnormal situations could save not only the engine but also your life. At the very least proper interpretation of the instruments can quickly point your LAME to a problem area, saving many $$$$$.
Just my 2 bob's worth. Cheers, RA
Interesting how these infernal combustion engines even lasted this long b4 these seminars came to light with the fancy new stuff they have invented.
Am sure there's lots of extra info about these days regarding operating the infernal combustion donk but I think they have done a pretty good job (&still are) up 'till now where such info was simply learning by experience & OWT's which I wouldn't discount them all verbatim. There's always someone out there trying to invent a better 'mousetrap'
I did a few 1000 hrs in recip donks without any of this 'updated' knowledge & I'm still here with no busted engines under my belt & I probably 'invented' some of my own way of doing things way back then but wouldn't remember any of it now & would be lucky to know how to start a C150
It was & still is a widely known belief that lead was for lubrication within an engine hence the liquid lead additive they brought out (for cars & promoted it )when the octane rating of fuel dropped some years ago, if it also makes a diff to timing them no argument there as often an 'invention' also has other side effects for want of a better word.
Just some more thinking here not meant to be an answer
Wmk2
Am sure there's lots of extra info about these days regarding operating the infernal combustion donk but I think they have done a pretty good job (&still are) up 'till now where such info was simply learning by experience & OWT's which I wouldn't discount them all verbatim. There's always someone out there trying to invent a better 'mousetrap'
I did a few 1000 hrs in recip donks without any of this 'updated' knowledge & I'm still here with no busted engines under my belt & I probably 'invented' some of my own way of doing things way back then but wouldn't remember any of it now & would be lucky to know how to start a C150
It was & still is a widely known belief that lead was for lubrication within an engine hence the liquid lead additive they brought out (for cars & promoted it )when the octane rating of fuel dropped some years ago, if it also makes a diff to timing them no argument there as often an 'invention' also has other side effects for want of a better word.
Just some more thinking here not meant to be an answer
Wmk2
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I'm sure the seminar is good, but $995 seems over-priced.
In my profession I usually just buy the text book or use online references rather than seminars. Despite the sales pitch, expensive seminars are rarely a good "investment".
In my profession I usually just buy the text book or use online references rather than seminars. Despite the sales pitch, expensive seminars are rarely a good "investment".
Nothing I would enjoy more than the opportunity to dump a bit of **** on my mate Jaba ............... but in this case I just can't!
Like many, I have spent more than a couple of hrs behind big bangers - operated them as I was told, or by-the-book, or by some combination of Forkintuition and common sense. Never had a problem and have seen a number of engines through to full time without a hitch.
And I have even operated them the APS way!
I too paid my money and fronted the Caboolture course - learnt heaps!
I highly recommend the program!
Dr
PS: I wonder if anyone has ever attended an APS course, either in the US or Oz, and come away feeling that they had wasted their money? I doubt it!
Like many, I have spent more than a couple of hrs behind big bangers - operated them as I was told, or by-the-book, or by some combination of Forkintuition and common sense. Never had a problem and have seen a number of engines through to full time without a hitch.
And I have even operated them the APS way!
I too paid my money and fronted the Caboolture course - learnt heaps!
I highly recommend the program!
Dr
PS: I wonder if anyone has ever attended an APS course, either in the US or Oz, and come away feeling that they had wasted their money? I doubt it!
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I'm sure the seminar is good, but $995 seems over-priced.
In my profession I usually just buy the text book or use online references rather than seminars. Despite the sales pitch, expensive seminars are rarely a good "investment". 26th Sep 2013 10:36
In my profession I usually just buy the text book or use online references rather than seminars. Despite the sales pitch, expensive seminars are rarely a good "investment". 26th Sep 2013 10:36
I've always been careful with my money to the extent some of my less kind friends accuse me of still having my lunch money from my first day at school. I would normally agree with your entire post.
However I took a punt and attended the APS mainly because the weren't selling anything. It was the best organized, information rich and professionally researched seminar I've ever attended and I've been to a few.
To answer FTDKs question I personally do not know of anyone who thinks they wasted their money.I know a few who reckoned they had to work too hard including me.
Never had a problem and have seen a number of engines through to full time without a hitch.
R3350 engines as used on Connies eventually had TBOs around 3,500 hrs once they were operated how APS are advocating. At first the R3350s were only achieving 200 - 600 hr TBOs
Why not our IO 520s with 3,500 hr TBOs ? Was 1950s metallurgy superior to that of today or were their operating methods superior ?
Cheers RA
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In my profession I usually just buy the text book or use online references rather than seminars. Despite the sales pitch, expensive seminars are rarely a good "investment".
Interesting how these infernal combustion engines even lasted this long b4 these seminars came to light with the fancy new stuff they have invented.
As another poster says, there is nothing new here, we operated 0-540s etc LOP, low rpm, high boost ( as per the manufacturer's then data) in the '60s, as did the operators of the big radials actually since the 1940s --- think the Qantas "double daylight" services in the Catalinas.
It just that this knowledge seemed to have been mislaid in Australia for a generation or two, as the ignoratii have gradually taken over pilot training and CASA.
Tootle pip!!
PS: We did operate O/IO-540 well over 3000 hours TBO, the best I remember was 3600 and still going. Having warm air filters as well as cold air was a small factor, but "biggi" was LOP ---- even without the saving on fuel consumed ---- which is rather significant at European prices.
Last edited by LeadSled; 26th Sep 2013 at 09:54.
'Leady' I agree with you 100%, that's what I am trying to convey here also (nothing new here). Many an engine has been run quite successfully too well b4 these idea's came to light:-)
Am sure the modern day info will help & change the way some might operate those infernal engines but compared to the zillions of them out there turning over as we speak compared to these that attended & or read this material it will make very little difference in the grand scheme of things I believe other than for peace of mind.
Eg: You buy a S/H machine that has had a 1000+hrs or so on it run as per the OWT's & then someone now 'educated' comes along & runs it as a new owner as per the new world thinking does that mean it will run longer/better?
We'll never know as no two engines are exactly the same in the time they are expected to last with & without the new thinking!
Welcome to the revolution
Wmk2
Am sure the modern day info will help & change the way some might operate those infernal engines but compared to the zillions of them out there turning over as we speak compared to these that attended & or read this material it will make very little difference in the grand scheme of things I believe other than for peace of mind.
Eg: You buy a S/H machine that has had a 1000+hrs or so on it run as per the OWT's & then someone now 'educated' comes along & runs it as a new owner as per the new world thinking does that mean it will run longer/better?
We'll never know as no two engines are exactly the same in the time they are expected to last with & without the new thinking!
Welcome to the revolution
Wmk2
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There is plenty of evidence to suggest that the better run an engine the better it has a chance of serving longer.
The biggest gains from an APS course are two fold. The first being operating either ROP or LOP at the appropriate settings that will give maximum life expectancy. this alone has massive financial implications in fuel burn and longevity.
The second and most important is the use of an engine monitor. these devices have the potential to unlock many opportunities to make a difference between the uninformed Vs. the informed.
Have a read of this article. Page 16 http://www.abs.org.au/uploads/March%202013%20Web.pdf
ROI is the key.
8-10 November in Camden.
The biggest gains from an APS course are two fold. The first being operating either ROP or LOP at the appropriate settings that will give maximum life expectancy. this alone has massive financial implications in fuel burn and longevity.
The second and most important is the use of an engine monitor. these devices have the potential to unlock many opportunities to make a difference between the uninformed Vs. the informed.
Have a read of this article. Page 16 http://www.abs.org.au/uploads/March%202013%20Web.pdf
ROI is the key.
8-10 November in Camden.
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Wal-sta, they're not new ideas mate. It's going beyond OWT's & marketing & legal department bull****, operating machinery the way engineers meant them to be operated.
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I'm sure the seminar is good, but $995 seems over-priced.
In my profession I usually just buy the text book or use online references rather than seminars. Despite the sales pitch, expensive seminars are rarely a good "investment".
In my profession I usually just buy the text book or use online references rather than seminars. Despite the sales pitch, expensive seminars are rarely a good "investment".
John Deakin (APS)
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Interesting how these infernal combustion engines even lasted this long b4 these seminars came to light
With a modern EMS (and knowledge to use it), we can now EXPECT our engines to run to TBO and well beyond, without cylinder changes, without valve problems (except those caused by improper installation). We're seeing 2500 and 3000 hours like this, on 1700 hour TBO engines.
The same techniques made the magnificent R-3350 on the Connies and DC-7s run to TBOs of 3600 hours (up from 300 on the B-29). I see no reason the IO-550 won't do that and more. Time will tell.
It was & still is a widely known belief that lead was for lubrication within an engine hence the liquid lead additive
John Deakin, APS
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Ranga is correct. 
Wally, the course content is actually based around things that were known in the days of BW (before Wally).
There is nothing new other than the method of collecting the data on the Engine Dyno. The method of operation that is taught is basically how the airlines ran their big piston airliner engines except those guys did not have EGT to use as a reference they used BMEP and a flight engineer along with a flight engineers station that weighed about the same as your average bonanza!
In fact the course really should be called "Flight Enginners 101 for modern piston pilots" or something like that.
Leadsled might be one of the few that frequents these boards along with Centauraus that knows about those days. The pilot training even back then did not cover all the science because they had a flight engineer. When the flight engineer disappeared.....or never was in a light GA aircraft.....all that stuff was ignored, and hence the OWT's were born.
For you, just keep that "Burner Le Kerosene" working by the computer and you will be fine
Wally, the course content is actually based around things that were known in the days of BW (before Wally).
There is nothing new other than the method of collecting the data on the Engine Dyno. The method of operation that is taught is basically how the airlines ran their big piston airliner engines except those guys did not have EGT to use as a reference they used BMEP and a flight engineer along with a flight engineers station that weighed about the same as your average bonanza!
In fact the course really should be called "Flight Enginners 101 for modern piston pilots" or something like that.
Leadsled might be one of the few that frequents these boards along with Centauraus that knows about those days. The pilot training even back then did not cover all the science because they had a flight engineer. When the flight engineer disappeared.....or never was in a light GA aircraft.....all that stuff was ignored, and hence the OWT's were born.
For you, just keep that "Burner Le Kerosene" working by the computer and you will be fine
Well we could look at it this way:
1K for the course
5K for Gami injectors
3K for a good engine monitor
Struth, we are past 25% of an overhaul ....
But all that said, I am thinking very hard about going, it is more the time issue than the money.
1K for the course
5K for Gami injectors
3K for a good engine monitor
Struth, we are past 25% of an overhaul ....
But all that said, I am thinking very hard about going, it is more the time issue than the money.
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Dood, I bought GAMI injectors for a bit over a grand.
3 grand for a monitor? Cheap at twice the price
But even at 5 grand for course, injectors & monitor, cheap. Once you understand what you are doing your 100 hourly's will drop & your unscheduled maintenance costs will plummet.
If you are an aircraft owner the course is essential, if you control the maintenance in your organisation, show your boss, it's essential.
P.S. You may not need GAMI's, and they will tell you if you don't. They are principled doods. The after sales service if you do get them is worth 5 times the price, ask anybody who's bought them
3 grand for a monitor? Cheap at twice the price
But even at 5 grand for course, injectors & monitor, cheap. Once you understand what you are doing your 100 hourly's will drop & your unscheduled maintenance costs will plummet.
If you are an aircraft owner the course is essential, if you control the maintenance in your organisation, show your boss, it's essential.
P.S. You may not need GAMI's, and they will tell you if you don't. They are principled doods. The after sales service if you do get them is worth 5 times the price, ask anybody who's bought them
Last edited by Jack Ranga; 27th Sep 2013 at 05:47.
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Bob,
Anyone can rationalise anything, but these courses are not on every other week. So book in and make the time. It will be the best money you have ever spent in aviation.
Engine monitors for something decent start with about $2500 plus installation.
I do not care what anyone without one says, they are in the dark, but spend wisely and the ROI is worth it in spades. And those who prefer being ROP pilots, they actually need them more than the LOP pilots. That usually confuses most folk who believe the opposite.
Anyone can rationalise anything, but these courses are not on every other week. So book in and make the time. It will be the best money you have ever spent in aviation.
Engine monitors for something decent start with about $2500 plus installation.
I do not care what anyone without one says, they are in the dark, but spend wisely and the ROI is worth it in spades. And those who prefer being ROP pilots, they actually need them more than the LOP pilots. That usually confuses most folk who believe the opposite.
Okay guys 'nothing new' I hear you guys say hey?............well someone is a clever marketing guru & making money out of A/C owners who already know this stuff but they obviously don't know they know........clever!
Wmk2
Wmk2
Anyone can rationalise anything
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Wal-sta, they (pilots) don't know this stuff mate. And they don't market. And I seriously doubt any money is made from the people who run this course.
Last edited by Jack Ranga; 27th Sep 2013 at 10:34.