APS Is it worth the money?
One day, all the information from an APS course and more will be stuffed into a little electronic box and left to do its own thing. The pilot will then have more time to look out the window at the scenery and oncoming aircraft - that is if he isn't already sitting next to the ATC guy in some dark room somewhere else entirely...
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Leadie
Was this in the days before uninformed butt-covering cowards captured control of aviation?
Was this back in the days when the authority realized that all engines run on condition from day one?
Was this back in the days when authority knew you had a far greater chance of a catastrophic engine failure in the first 100 hrs than at any other time in the engines life?
Was this back in the days when people with real engine experience were making the decisions? People who knew that high hour engines rarely fail catastrophically and normally give tens if not hundreds of hours of warning that they are nearing the end of their life.
Today how many hours can a charter organization run a IO-540 before they have to rip it out and junk it?
Is it time we started operating on proven data and not on uninformed whims thrust upon us by unqualified pen ushers more interested in self-promotion than safely?
PS: We did operate O/IO-540 well over 3000 hours TBO, the best I remember was 3600 and still going.
Was this back in the days when the authority realized that all engines run on condition from day one?
Was this back in the days when authority knew you had a far greater chance of a catastrophic engine failure in the first 100 hrs than at any other time in the engines life?
Was this back in the days when people with real engine experience were making the decisions? People who knew that high hour engines rarely fail catastrophically and normally give tens if not hundreds of hours of warning that they are nearing the end of their life.
Today how many hours can a charter organization run a IO-540 before they have to rip it out and junk it?
Is it time we started operating on proven data and not on uninformed whims thrust upon us by unqualified pen ushers more interested in self-promotion than safely?
Andy_RR said:When:
- the engine has been set up properly, and
- you know how to run the engine properly, and
- you know what the monitor is telling you, and
- you've set up the monitor correctly,
you don't spend any more time looking at the monitor than you otherwise would have looking at the standard gauges.
- the engine has been set up properly, and
- you know how to run the engine properly, and
- you know what the monitor is telling you, and
- you've set up the monitor correctly,
you don't spend any more time looking at the monitor than you otherwise would have looking at the standard gauges.
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Yes, you may have. Same as doing your CIR for the first time I guess? When you know what all that information is telling you your scan becomes more efficient. I am frothing at the mouth (
) to get at my monitor, set it up & start using the information it provides. I've got the good fortune of running an IO540 from 0 hours. I'll get back to you when I'm at 3000 hours or so with a progress report
) to get at my monitor, set it up & start using the information it provides. I've got the good fortune of running an IO540 from 0 hours. I'll get back to you when I'm at 3000 hours or so with a progress report
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Gentlemen:
A couple of things:
1) The APS class is not put on by GAMI. The three APS principles are John Deakin, George Braly, and myself. Only George has any relationship with GAMI. We are not in any way related to GAMI in a business sense. We are, however, good friends. We recently added David Brown and Andrew Denyer as presenters in Australia.
2) The only detractors have been those who have not attended and generally don't know what they don't know.
3) While the vast bulk of the material presented is not new, very few participants know the material--even though they *think* they do. These are the pilots and LAMEs who generally make a very low score <50% on the pre-test. They spend a weekend experiencing a series of "Ah-ha" moments.
4) Engine monitors save you huge sums of money and in many cases, your engine, airplane, and your life. (if only the Wayalla Chieftan had had one, eight souls would likely be alive today) It does little to have a monitor unless one has the knowledge to interpret what it is telling you. There is simply no other course offered anywhere where this training and knowledge is available.
As John Deakin pointed out earlier in the thread, we have been offering a 100% money-back guarantee since day ONE. In over 13 years and many thousands of pilots, mechanics, OEM representatives, combustion engineers, FAA and CASA representatives, and engine builders having participated, not once has anyone asked for a refund or offered ANY rebutting data to what is presented. This course has dramatically changed the way GA aircraft are operated by a large number of pilots in the US and a growing number down under.
Yes, it is possible to garner this information on your own. It took us five years and a million dollar engine test facility to gather the information we present. Or, one can send a weekend and get it all at once. (to each, his own) Some of the material is 60 years old and forgotten. Some of it is new, and frankly, not widely known.
In this short thread alone, the APS grads are very positive about the value and the naysayers have not been--and might make as low as 40% on the pre-test.
"It' not what you know that hurts you; it's what you know that isn't so..."
Boswell
Walter Atkinson
Advanced Pilot Seminars
ATP, CFII, MEI, A&P
A couple of things:
1) The APS class is not put on by GAMI. The three APS principles are John Deakin, George Braly, and myself. Only George has any relationship with GAMI. We are not in any way related to GAMI in a business sense. We are, however, good friends. We recently added David Brown and Andrew Denyer as presenters in Australia.
2) The only detractors have been those who have not attended and generally don't know what they don't know.
3) While the vast bulk of the material presented is not new, very few participants know the material--even though they *think* they do. These are the pilots and LAMEs who generally make a very low score <50% on the pre-test. They spend a weekend experiencing a series of "Ah-ha" moments.
4) Engine monitors save you huge sums of money and in many cases, your engine, airplane, and your life. (if only the Wayalla Chieftan had had one, eight souls would likely be alive today) It does little to have a monitor unless one has the knowledge to interpret what it is telling you. There is simply no other course offered anywhere where this training and knowledge is available.
As John Deakin pointed out earlier in the thread, we have been offering a 100% money-back guarantee since day ONE. In over 13 years and many thousands of pilots, mechanics, OEM representatives, combustion engineers, FAA and CASA representatives, and engine builders having participated, not once has anyone asked for a refund or offered ANY rebutting data to what is presented. This course has dramatically changed the way GA aircraft are operated by a large number of pilots in the US and a growing number down under.
Yes, it is possible to garner this information on your own. It took us five years and a million dollar engine test facility to gather the information we present. Or, one can send a weekend and get it all at once. (to each, his own) Some of the material is 60 years old and forgotten. Some of it is new, and frankly, not widely known.
In this short thread alone, the APS grads are very positive about the value and the naysayers have not been--and might make as low as 40% on the pre-test.
"It' not what you know that hurts you; it's what you know that isn't so..."
Boswell
Walter Atkinson
Advanced Pilot Seminars
ATP, CFII, MEI, A&P
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Folks,
I am a little incredulous that we are even having this discussion!
At no stage during my time in aviation have I ever thought, "That'll do; I know as much as I need to."
IMHO:
If you own a piston engine..
If you operate a piston engine..
If you have even an academic interest in what's going on inside a piston engine..
..then the course will vastly expand your knowledge of the most expensive and vital component in your aircraft.
Being guilty on all 3 counts, my attendance at the first Oz course was a foregone conclusion. And lo, it was good.
By the time the course was over, I'd been given a vast amount of info to make sense of what the engine monitor was telling me. The occasional ongoing query is easily dealt with by the excellent "after-sales" support from the gentlemen running it.
There is a perception that it's simply about running LOP. That is but one of the many topics discussed, though it's an important one, and we were given the knowledge to conduct such operation with confidence. The crucial yardstick for me was that even the most sceptical attendees had accepted the message by the time we were done.
It's all about knowing as much as you can. Surely, in our business, that has to be a good thing.
I am a little incredulous that we are even having this discussion!
At no stage during my time in aviation have I ever thought, "That'll do; I know as much as I need to."
IMHO:
If you own a piston engine..
If you operate a piston engine..
If you have even an academic interest in what's going on inside a piston engine..
..then the course will vastly expand your knowledge of the most expensive and vital component in your aircraft.
Being guilty on all 3 counts, my attendance at the first Oz course was a foregone conclusion. And lo, it was good.
By the time the course was over, I'd been given a vast amount of info to make sense of what the engine monitor was telling me. The occasional ongoing query is easily dealt with by the excellent "after-sales" support from the gentlemen running it.
There is a perception that it's simply about running LOP. That is but one of the many topics discussed, though it's an important one, and we were given the knowledge to conduct such operation with confidence. The crucial yardstick for me was that even the most sceptical attendees had accepted the message by the time we were done.
It's all about knowing as much as you can. Surely, in our business, that has to be a good thing.
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Agrajag, I am with you, why is this even a discussion, knowledge costs nothing to carry, uses a little memory, and potentially either saves your butt, or improves the state of your wallet over time.
Sure the course costs, you are paying for another persons knowledge and reputation as the transfer of knowledge occurs, it has a value.
From my reading the value is high, the cost is reasonable and the outcome is beneficial.
See all that and I didn't get to LOP !!!!!!!!!!!
Sure the course costs, you are paying for another persons knowledge and reputation as the transfer of knowledge occurs, it has a value.
From my reading the value is high, the cost is reasonable and the outcome is beneficial.
See all that and I didn't get to LOP !!!!!!!!!!!
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As Walter Atkinson has posted
Wouldn't it now be right and proper that Jaba, as a passionate advocate of APS, post under his real name, as do Atkinson, Braly and Deakin, when discussing the virtues of attending this seminar?
We recently added David Brown and Andrew Denyer as presenters in Australia.
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Right and Proper.....who cares here on pprune?. I dont care because many people know who I am anyway.
But when you try to register my name, and I did years ago, it was already in use. But just for you Trent, I have registered a new one, see if you can guess it
.
If I keep this up I will end up like Forkie,
and never remember them all.
You will have to wait a while for posts to appear though.........Edit 1-10-13 Seems you have to wait a LONG while
But when you try to register my name, and I did years ago, it was already in use. But just for you Trent, I have registered a new one, see if you can guess it
.If I keep this up I will end up like Forkie,
and never remember them all.You will have to wait a while for posts to appear though.........Edit 1-10-13 Seems you have to wait a LONG while
Last edited by Jabawocky; 1st Oct 2013 at 04:09.
But when you try to register my name, and I did years ago, it was already in use. But just for you Trent, I have registered a new one, see if you can guess it 
.
.
Dr
Walter,
What some posters on this thread illustrate is just how dumb a percentage of aviators in Australia really are ---- their prejudices are made up, don't confuse them with the facts.
What some posters on this thread illustrate is just how dumb a percentage of aviators in Australia really are ---- their prejudices are made up, don't confuse them with the facts.
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That's not limited to Australia. The whining and complaining in the US 13 years ago about the APS class was vocal and constant... that is, until we made the transition from being renegades to being mainstream. How did we make the transition, you might ask? With DATA.
What's really funny is how we coined a few terms during the creation of the seminar and we now hear others quoting them without knowing their origin. My favorite was when one guy on an internet forum was trying to explain the Red Box to me and he had it screwed up. The silence was golden when I pointed out that *I* invented the Red Box (with John and George's input) and that since I invented it, I got to define it. The thread died suddenly.
The engine management things we teach along with the interpretation of engine monitors has become "common knowledge" among large segments of the pilot population in the States. Many people are teaching others without knowing where the material originated. THAT is acceptance and success. Much of what Mike Busch teaches, he learned during the three times he took the APS class. Mike does a good job with the majority of it and does give us attribution when he writes.
My favorite statistic is the Pre-test scores. The average pilot who considers himself knowledgeable makes about 60%; the average LAME will score in the 40% range; and the average IA lower than that. That's when we get the doubter's attention! Few actually score a passing grade, but most all make 95-100% on the Post-test 2 1/2 days later.
It's satisfying.
What's really funny is how we coined a few terms during the creation of the seminar and we now hear others quoting them without knowing their origin. My favorite was when one guy on an internet forum was trying to explain the Red Box to me and he had it screwed up. The silence was golden when I pointed out that *I* invented the Red Box (with John and George's input) and that since I invented it, I got to define it. The thread died suddenly.
The engine management things we teach along with the interpretation of engine monitors has become "common knowledge" among large segments of the pilot population in the States. Many people are teaching others without knowing where the material originated. THAT is acceptance and success. Much of what Mike Busch teaches, he learned during the three times he took the APS class. Mike does a good job with the majority of it and does give us attribution when he writes.
My favorite statistic is the Pre-test scores. The average pilot who considers himself knowledgeable makes about 60%; the average LAME will score in the 40% range; and the average IA lower than that. That's when we get the doubter's attention! Few actually score a passing grade, but most all make 95-100% on the Post-test 2 1/2 days later.
It's satisfying.
Attended this course earlier this year (and got the T shirt to prove it).
Thoroughly recommend it, learned a heap, and am now putting it into practice. Can already point to $$ in my pocket rather than the LAME's.
Thank you, Walter, for the assumption that we are gentlemen on here when, on occasion, evidence has shown otherwise (some of us can be right stubborn bastards, at times).
Thoroughly recommend it, learned a heap, and am now putting it into practice. Can already point to $$ in my pocket rather than the LAME's.
Thank you, Walter, for the assumption that we are gentlemen on here when, on occasion, evidence has shown otherwise (some of us can be right stubborn bastards, at times).
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Thank you, Walter, for the assumption that we are gentlemen on here when, on occasion, evidence has shown otherwise (some of us can be right stubborn bastards, at times).
And I reckon I can guess who this is, so just for Walters benefit, and some of you ladies can drink the men folk under the table.
Leisa is still scared of going near you and a bottle of red wine!
I would reply with my personal username but it seems that my posts are not being released
And people wonder why I post as Jaba!
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Recent story on the value of APS from a past student
The APS Course Just Saved Me a Ton of Money
And, more importantly, frustration!
Here's the story... names redacted to protect the guilty. Any likeness to persons living or otherwise is purely intentional.
My newly-overhauled Continental IO-550 has been purring along very nicely for 100ish hours now. It is equipped with GAMI injectors, and almost exactly a year ago I performed a GAMI lean test and determined my fuel spread to be in the 0.2 gph range. That's an excellent spread, and my engine has always run very smoothly leak-of-peak (LOP), even as far down as 50-100F LOP.
That said, I normally run around in the 7-10k altitude range, and typically I'm at 15-20F LOP, and again, always smooth.
So last weekend, while flying with fellow BT Admin, Jeff Snyder, on a cross country, we leveled off at 7,000 feet, and set everything up for cruise at about 20F LOP. After a few minutes, it became obvious that the engine wasn't running particularly smoothly, although not what I would categorize as "rough" either. It felt as though it were running about 120-150F LOP, and we could feel it "miss" every now and again, but we confirmed multiple times to be only 20F LOP.
As we started looking around the airplane for gremlins which might cause such a phenomenon, we found the following.
Hrm, that's odd. Attention, Cylinder #5! Care to explain to the class why you're running 47 degrees cooler, as measured by cylinder head temperature (CHT), than the next coolest cylinder?
Now, Jeff and I are both Advanced Pilot Seminars (APS) course grads, and right away we were conjecturing, based on what we learned in the course, as to what would cause both the CHT and EGT to be significantly lower than normal. We came up with a working theory, but we needed more evidence to support it.
Let's try running rich-of-peak (ROP) for a moment then.
And, more importantly, frustration!
Here's the story... names redacted to protect the guilty. Any likeness to persons living or otherwise is purely intentional.
My newly-overhauled Continental IO-550 has been purring along very nicely for 100ish hours now. It is equipped with GAMI injectors, and almost exactly a year ago I performed a GAMI lean test and determined my fuel spread to be in the 0.2 gph range. That's an excellent spread, and my engine has always run very smoothly leak-of-peak (LOP), even as far down as 50-100F LOP.
That said, I normally run around in the 7-10k altitude range, and typically I'm at 15-20F LOP, and again, always smooth.
So last weekend, while flying with fellow BT Admin, Jeff Snyder, on a cross country, we leveled off at 7,000 feet, and set everything up for cruise at about 20F LOP. After a few minutes, it became obvious that the engine wasn't running particularly smoothly, although not what I would categorize as "rough" either. It felt as though it were running about 120-150F LOP, and we could feel it "miss" every now and again, but we confirmed multiple times to be only 20F LOP.
As we started looking around the airplane for gremlins which might cause such a phenomenon, we found the following.
Hrm, that's odd. Attention, Cylinder #5! Care to explain to the class why you're running 47 degrees cooler, as measured by cylinder head temperature (CHT), than the next coolest cylinder?
Now, Jeff and I are both Advanced Pilot Seminars (APS) course grads, and right away we were conjecturing, based on what we learned in the course, as to what would cause both the CHT and EGT to be significantly lower than normal. We came up with a working theory, but we needed more evidence to support it.
Let's try running rich-of-peak (ROP) for a moment then.
Last edited by Jabawocky; 4th Oct 2013 at 12:02.
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There are a few positions available for the class in Camden (Sydney) on the 8-10th of November. Bookings online at the APS website are essential. PM me if you need assistance.
The next course will be a year away and might not be anywhere near you!
The next course will be a year away and might not be anywhere near you!
