WAAS for Australia you heard it here first!
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404 Titan wrote
With respect, are you certain of that?
I think you have it back to front.
GBAS - Ground Based Augmentation System
Eg Ground Based Augmentation System | Airservices
GBAS is local, usually within 20km of the ground station
WAAS is a type of SBAS - Satellite Based Augmentation System.
WAAS is the US version, MSAS is the Japanese system we would most likely piggy back off, I assume, as they already have satellites that also cover most of Australia launched, for this service.
The term WAAS is loosely used in the Australian context, as it is the best known SBAS system.
SBAS is wide spread (yes it still needs a small set of ground stations.
The problem with WAAS is that it is area specific because it is terrestrial based where as GBAS because the correction is space based will be available everywhere. I will give my left nut if WAAS will be available outside Australian capital cities because of the extremely short sightedness of the regulator and successive federal governments. So I doubt very much WAAS will be any use to you and me going into MIA where as GBAS would allow ILS type approaches into places like MIA and most bush strips if they are properly surveyed and also LVP/LVO approaches and auto landings at properly equipped airports. It is also worth noting no Boeing or Airbus is equipped with WAAS including the A350. B787, B747-8, A350 and A380 are though fitted with GBAS. The main driving force behind WAAS worldwide appears to be the business jet community who have little use for ILS type approaches into bush strips. Finally GBAS is far cheaper to introduce because it is all space based requiring far less infrastructure than WAAS for a far greater return on investment.
With respect, are you certain of that?
I think you have it back to front.
GBAS - Ground Based Augmentation System
Eg Ground Based Augmentation System | Airservices
GBAS is local, usually within 20km of the ground station
WAAS is a type of SBAS - Satellite Based Augmentation System.
WAAS is the US version, MSAS is the Japanese system we would most likely piggy back off, I assume, as they already have satellites that also cover most of Australia launched, for this service.
The term WAAS is loosely used in the Australian context, as it is the best known SBAS system.
SBAS is wide spread (yes it still needs a small set of ground stations.
Last edited by rjtjrt; 22nd Aug 2013 at 13:22.
rjtetc,
Sound about right to me, I am not aware that there is any difference for the aircraft equipment to take advantage of SBAS/GBAS, although Airservices, at one stage, had plans for a proprietary LAAS that was code, so that only subscribers could use the signals.
One of the major reasons for Airservices loss of interest in WAAS was that they couldn't figure out a way to charge for it!
Tootle pip!!
Sound about right to me, I am not aware that there is any difference for the aircraft equipment to take advantage of SBAS/GBAS, although Airservices, at one stage, had plans for a proprietary LAAS that was code, so that only subscribers could use the signals.
One of the major reasons for Airservices loss of interest in WAAS was that they couldn't figure out a way to charge for it!
Tootle pip!!
rjtjrt
You are correct. Doh. Note to one self dont post on Prune after a few glasses of Chardonnay. WAAS is also called SBAS.
LeadSled
To be honest Im not sure either but there are rumblings from the airline industry worldwide about WAAS/SBAS and their preference for GBAS. It may be a case they dont want to pay for a system outside their field of operation, i.e. that benefits all, or it may be a case one system isnt compatible with the other.
You are correct. Doh. Note to one self dont post on Prune after a few glasses of Chardonnay. WAAS is also called SBAS.
LeadSled
To be honest Im not sure either but there are rumblings from the airline industry worldwide about WAAS/SBAS and their preference for GBAS. It may be a case they dont want to pay for a system outside their field of operation, i.e. that benefits all, or it may be a case one system isnt compatible with the other.
You can stick GBAS up your fundament. The benefit of WAAS has nothing to do with the aircraft industry at all - its to do with mining, agriculture and ground transport industries, the airline economic benefit is nothing compared to the ground (or marine) applications....And WAAS capable receivers are cheeeeeeap.
In fact we already have a good system here - but expensive - provided by John Deere for agricultural use - but of course it aint "certified" so its no use to you anyway..
StarFire (navigation system) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WAAS! Bring it!
In fact we already have a good system here - but expensive - provided by John Deere for agricultural use - but of course it aint "certified" so its no use to you anyway..
StarFire (navigation system) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
WAAS! Bring it!
Last edited by Sunfish; 22nd Aug 2013 at 20:17.
Jack Ranga, one uplink, at least nine to thirteen reference stations...selected ADS-B sites....and the transponder on either of the NBN birds, although the word is there is no room.
$60million for the package cost. I am guessing, another $130million for ref station fitout....we already have the uplink in CB to the Japanese MTSAT...so just point another one at our own bird.
It isn't just aviation that gets the benefit and Dick needs to stress this point to Warren.
$60million for the package cost. I am guessing, another $130million for ref station fitout....we already have the uplink in CB to the Japanese MTSAT...so just point another one at our own bird.
It isn't just aviation that gets the benefit and Dick needs to stress this point to Warren.
Sunfish I'm in complete agreement with you on the proviso that the airline industry doesn't have to pay more than its fair share.
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When you live....
$60million for the package cost. I am guessing, another $130million for ref station fitout
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OZ B D, when you say one up link, that's one ground station? Or when you say 9 to 13 reference stations that's 9 to 13 ground stations??
404, perhaps if the airlines took a holistic approach to the funding of this the industry would be much better resourced. In the past airlines took their pilots from GA, a pilot in GA flying WAAS like approaches would be trained on them by the time they reach the airlines (ahh have a dream!). Ain't going to happen I know while scumbags like Joyce are around..........
404, perhaps if the airlines took a holistic approach to the funding of this the industry would be much better resourced. In the past airlines took their pilots from GA, a pilot in GA flying WAAS like approaches would be trained on them by the time they reach the airlines (ahh have a dream!). Ain't going to happen I know while scumbags like Joyce are around..........
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Why don't all the industries get together with a concerted effort to the government for WASS that will serve all industries. You are right other industries have been using a simular system for years and with a need for far more accuracy than Aviation ever needs.
Farmers are planting crops down rows with accuracy day in day out with privately installed shared reference stations at 1-2 cm accuracy, or using the old marine beacons signal 1000 km away to give 75 cm accuracy. They use many different satellite systems from Russia's to Japans to the US that just automatically switch's to the best available. Next time you fly over Farming country have a look how many crops are planted in straight lines compered with the around and around of a few years ago. They can see the benefit. Doesn't it scare you that the farmer siting in his tractor below you as you fly over him has a far more accurate and dependable navigation system than you do.
Miners and road buliders have portable reference stations they setup on a tripad for tracking measuring and guiding machinery. You can also buy a satellite based differential correction that can be used without being ground based for a few hundred dollars subscription a year to give you 10 cm accuracy. All the differential accuracy figures that are quoted are all over a 24 hour period so that is how far that the GPS would be out over a 24 hour period at the worst.
Why cannot all the industries get together and share the need and cost for the differential signal instead of every industry each having its own system. We will end up with a VHS V's BETTA argument all over again.
However think its probably to late and not a logical enough world for that, better to reinvent the wheel.
Farmers are planting crops down rows with accuracy day in day out with privately installed shared reference stations at 1-2 cm accuracy, or using the old marine beacons signal 1000 km away to give 75 cm accuracy. They use many different satellite systems from Russia's to Japans to the US that just automatically switch's to the best available. Next time you fly over Farming country have a look how many crops are planted in straight lines compered with the around and around of a few years ago. They can see the benefit. Doesn't it scare you that the farmer siting in his tractor below you as you fly over him has a far more accurate and dependable navigation system than you do.
Miners and road buliders have portable reference stations they setup on a tripad for tracking measuring and guiding machinery. You can also buy a satellite based differential correction that can be used without being ground based for a few hundred dollars subscription a year to give you 10 cm accuracy. All the differential accuracy figures that are quoted are all over a 24 hour period so that is how far that the GPS would be out over a 24 hour period at the worst.
Why cannot all the industries get together and share the need and cost for the differential signal instead of every industry each having its own system. We will end up with a VHS V's BETTA argument all over again.
However think its probably to late and not a logical enough world for that, better to reinvent the wheel.
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Why don't all the industries get together with a concerted effort to the government for WASS that will serve all industries. You are right other industries have been using a simular system for years and with a need for far more accuracy than Aviation ever needs.
The 1-2 cm accuracy you refer to is achieved by a system called RTK (real time kinematics) and involves a base station and a very accurately surved ground control point. Out at 75 - 100 cm are diferential units and satellite derived corrections from systems like OmniStar. Marine beacons may not have the range for an accurate correction that far away inland.
WAAS is the generic, if you like correction, that every GPS sold in the last 5 - 10 years will accept. PROVIDED THAT THE WAAS PROPOSED FOR AUSTRALIA MEETS THIS DATA AND FREQUENCY SPEC. If Aus wanders off by itself we will be no closer than where we started and have to buy new 'Australianised' GPS equipment. Now that would be Australian DME all over again.
I am hoping that organisation like Geoscience Australia are going to be resposible for this and NOT Airservices. Their last effort at a GBAS was a little less than convincing. What would be even better would be to get someone like Prof Chris Rizos from UNSW to over see the implementation of it.
...Doesn't it scare you that the farmer siting in his tractor below you as you fly over him has a far more accurate and dependable navigation system than you do....
The farming economy, whilst profiting from GPS, is not reliant on GPS. There are multiple individual fallback positions that allows continued farming operations. There is no GPS reliant farmers traffic control (ATC) telling farmers when to start engines, when they can turn left-right or whatever. GPS is not yet anywhere near being at the core of farming operations... unlike aviation...
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ReadMyACARS, agree completely, we always as a country seem to be very good at trying to reinvent the wheel.
From what I hear, and I stand to be corrected, but WASS works well in the states, its cheaper, receivers are available now on the market at a reasonable cost and most of your old 530/430's are upgradable to WASS.
Go to WASS and share the cost and running over all industries. Easier to convince the Government to spend the dollars if it is going to be beneficial to all Aussies instead of one particular industry.
From what I hear, and I stand to be corrected, but WASS works well in the states, its cheaper, receivers are available now on the market at a reasonable cost and most of your old 530/430's are upgradable to WASS.
Go to WASS and share the cost and running over all industries. Easier to convince the Government to spend the dollars if it is going to be beneficial to all Aussies instead of one particular industry.
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I made comment about gps to some mine engineers quite a few years ago.
they told me to get up with the times. their installed mine site system gave them half millimetre accuracy.
they told me to get up with the times. their installed mine site system gave them half millimetre accuracy.
Wonder how this system works ?
Apparently cheap and accurate...
Low-cost RTK GPS receiver (centimeter level precision) with open source software and board design targeted at UAVs.
Some possible applications:
UAVs
Amateur rocketry
Autonomous lawnmowers
Technical Specs:
Centimeter level positioning (RTK)
Fast (50 Hz) position/velocity/time updates
Open source software and board design
Low power consumption : 500mW / 100mA typical
Small form factor : 53 x 53 mm
Low cost : $900 for a complete RTK system
Piksi : The RTK GPS Receiver by Swift Navigation Inc. ? Kickstarter
.
Apparently cheap and accurate...
Low-cost RTK GPS receiver (centimeter level precision) with open source software and board design targeted at UAVs.
Some possible applications:
UAVs
Amateur rocketry
Autonomous lawnmowers
Technical Specs:
Centimeter level positioning (RTK)
Fast (50 Hz) position/velocity/time updates
Open source software and board design
Low power consumption : 500mW / 100mA typical
Small form factor : 53 x 53 mm
Low cost : $900 for a complete RTK system
Piksi : The RTK GPS Receiver by Swift Navigation Inc. ? Kickstarter
.
Last edited by Flying Binghi; 23rd Aug 2013 at 01:47.
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Flying Binghi, you are right, just farmers spending a few thousand dollars an hour of their own money on chemicals, wages fuel that needs to be placed accurately with large machines. It has got to the stage that wheels now do stop if RTK goes down or marine beacon signal drops out because without differential the potential losses from over or under spray is just to great. Just go and ask any larger farmer if he would go back to non diff auto steer and see what his answer is. Machines especially Spray machines don't even come with a mechanical marking option any more. New seeders are all linked to GPS variable rate application and reliant on it. So it isn't life threating its however becoming very reliant on it so I am told.
Have a look at this link.
Have a look at this link.
Do the standard LNAV minimums come down a bit with WAAS?
When conducting an approach your GNSS unit will inform you if the position accuracy does not meet the requirements for the various approach minimas with a message along the lines of "Approach downgraded Use LNAV minima" (GNS430W), a message that I struck once whilst conducting an approach with a newly fitted unit, which was followed with a statement along the lines of "What the heck does that mean? My chart only has one minima!", then I found out about all the other minimas over in the US.
Yes Jack, uplink=ground station...reference stations measure the error in position and uplink to the ground station. Correction signal sent up to the geosynchronous bird. Retransmitted as if it was a GNSS bird but with the corrected signal. ( When the yank satellite was in view, my handhelds recognized it with a W rather than a number.)
Sunny et al,
One thing Warren Truss now knows is that the original estimates for setting up a WAAS system were vastly exaggerated, this was the time when there was already blanket coverage of Australia by a Pacific WAAS equipped satellite. This satellite was moved east when it became obvious Australia was not going to go ahead with WAAS.
One thing that seems to have have escaped everybody's here is the new generation GPS (GPS III), now going up.
The new generation GPS produces WAAS or better accuracies without any augmentation, BUT, only for slow moving targets.
This was major consideration during the last review of WAAS for Australia, conducted within (then) DoTaRS, leaving aviation as the only potential users of WAAS. It seems the general conclusion was that WAAS was not justified if the only users were aviation, and all the other users mention in various posts would no longer benefit from WAAS, given the capabilities of GPS III.
Various airlines made it clear that, unless it was free, they were not interested, because they could not make a business case to pay --- on the figures presented to them. Of course, Airservices hated the idea, how do you charge for something that is available to all --- hence all the money they spent playing around with GBAS.
With the emergence of "GPS like" (but not GPS) jam proof local area navigation systems, which can be implemented with an additional card in a GPS box, and the many demonstrated shortcoming of the lack of security of current non-encrypted GPS, I would guess that airlines will become less interested in augmented GNSS Precision Approaches.
Again, I would guess this is why the promotion of GNSS precision approaches to Cat II/III has gone very quite in recent times --- it can be done --- IF --- the GPS signal in not corrupted.
Having said all of the above, Warren Truss now knows that the real cost of running a WAAS system ground based infrastructure,even if it is just for aviation (including increasing use of UAVs) is, in the big scheme of things, negligible, and on that basis, there are really quite large tangible benefits from having WAAS available for regional, rural and remote Australia..
The benefit of minimas down to the equivalent of Cat.I ILS, alone, would have measurable economic benefits to regional airlines and all the fly-in/fly-out operators in the mining provinces.
Tootle pip!!
One thing Warren Truss now knows is that the original estimates for setting up a WAAS system were vastly exaggerated, this was the time when there was already blanket coverage of Australia by a Pacific WAAS equipped satellite. This satellite was moved east when it became obvious Australia was not going to go ahead with WAAS.
One thing that seems to have have escaped everybody's here is the new generation GPS (GPS III), now going up.
The new generation GPS produces WAAS or better accuracies without any augmentation, BUT, only for slow moving targets.
This was major consideration during the last review of WAAS for Australia, conducted within (then) DoTaRS, leaving aviation as the only potential users of WAAS. It seems the general conclusion was that WAAS was not justified if the only users were aviation, and all the other users mention in various posts would no longer benefit from WAAS, given the capabilities of GPS III.
Various airlines made it clear that, unless it was free, they were not interested, because they could not make a business case to pay --- on the figures presented to them. Of course, Airservices hated the idea, how do you charge for something that is available to all --- hence all the money they spent playing around with GBAS.
With the emergence of "GPS like" (but not GPS) jam proof local area navigation systems, which can be implemented with an additional card in a GPS box, and the many demonstrated shortcoming of the lack of security of current non-encrypted GPS, I would guess that airlines will become less interested in augmented GNSS Precision Approaches.
Again, I would guess this is why the promotion of GNSS precision approaches to Cat II/III has gone very quite in recent times --- it can be done --- IF --- the GPS signal in not corrupted.
Having said all of the above, Warren Truss now knows that the real cost of running a WAAS system ground based infrastructure,even if it is just for aviation (including increasing use of UAVs) is, in the big scheme of things, negligible, and on that basis, there are really quite large tangible benefits from having WAAS available for regional, rural and remote Australia..
The benefit of minimas down to the equivalent of Cat.I ILS, alone, would have measurable economic benefits to regional airlines and all the fly-in/fly-out operators in the mining provinces.
Tootle pip!!
Last edited by LeadSled; 23rd Aug 2013 at 04:18.