Strange flight training practices
drpixie has the solution to the 'PFL below 500'' problem. 
I hope s/he's not the only one left with the brains to think outside the triangle.
I hope s/he's not the only one left with the brains to think outside the triangle.
Last edited by Creampuff; 28th Jul 2013 at 09:27.
Thread Starter
The FOIs and FTEs I have flown with out of Bankstown certainly didn't seem to think DrPixie's method was strange whenever I flew it with them.
The ex-RAAF FOIs, however, went spastic
The ex-RAAF FOIs, however, went spastic
So when they 'went spastic', were they able to point to any rule of law or common sense reason for prohibiting practising a forced landing on to a perfectly serviceable landing area?
Or did they expect someone to prove the unprovable: Practise a forced landing into somewhere that's suitable, but don't go below 500' 'cause that's naughty, and if you haven't gone below 500' you haven't proved your competence.
Or did they expect someone to prove the unprovable: Practise a forced landing into somewhere that's suitable, but don't go below 500' 'cause that's naughty, and if you haven't gone below 500' you haven't proved your competence.
Thread Starter
Not the first time, not the last time:
"I will have to take this back to my manager" he harrumphed.
No further peeps were heard. It was an ALA.
"I will have to take this back to my manager" he harrumphed.
No further peeps were heard. It was an ALA.
Join Date: Jul 2013
Location: New Zealand
Posts: 2
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
...as a second-time-around PPL student....
I learned to fly around 14 yrs ago in Australia, lapsed for far too long and am now back at the throttle re-learning.... And having fun ....And have nothing but praise for instructors...and the "enthusiasts" that they need to deal with...
Back when I started I had 4 different instructors: one ex military, one crop-duster, one airline pilot and a young buck building hours... And all had different styles of instruction, and all taught me different things.
The military guy was all about check lists and altitudes and air speeds. The crop duster was, "instruments are fine to have as a back-up, but just feel what the plane is telling you". The airline pilot was the one who taught me to fly the plane to the ground.... By making me try to fly the centerline of the runway in rough weather configuration at exactly ten feet.... While he was kicking the rudder and holding , and jerking up and down, the throttle.... Scary...but effective!
( BTW, I originally solo'd at about 14hrs)
Back when I started I had 4 different instructors: one ex military, one crop-duster, one airline pilot and a young buck building hours... And all had different styles of instruction, and all taught me different things.
The military guy was all about check lists and altitudes and air speeds. The crop duster was, "instruments are fine to have as a back-up, but just feel what the plane is telling you". The airline pilot was the one who taught me to fly the plane to the ground.... By making me try to fly the centerline of the runway in rough weather configuration at exactly ten feet.... While he was kicking the rudder and holding , and jerking up and down, the throttle.... Scary...but effective!
( BTW, I originally solo'd at about 14hrs)
Join Date: May 2013
Location: have I forgotten or am I lost?
Age: 71
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you know that emergency over the local airstrip scenario.
it is bollocks.
I had one pulled on me once and refused to use the strip as intended.
if the glide approach was stuffed up or the wind was different from what was expected the bushland either end of the strip meant that there was no safe undershoot area and no safe overshoot area.
you had to nail the entire approach perfectly or you were toast.
I elected for a big farmers flat paddock.
while we were gliding to the paddock I was asked what I was doing.
absolutely nothing was the reply.
wtf you are in an emergency!!!
all decisions made in the first minute of an emergency are usually wrong so I am waiting for the second minute was the reply.
never panic in an emergency even if the instructor wants you to.
it is bollocks.
I had one pulled on me once and refused to use the strip as intended.
if the glide approach was stuffed up or the wind was different from what was expected the bushland either end of the strip meant that there was no safe undershoot area and no safe overshoot area.
you had to nail the entire approach perfectly or you were toast.
I elected for a big farmers flat paddock.
while we were gliding to the paddock I was asked what I was doing.
absolutely nothing was the reply.
wtf you are in an emergency!!!
all decisions made in the first minute of an emergency are usually wrong so I am waiting for the second minute was the reply.
never panic in an emergency even if the instructor wants you to.
Last edited by dubbleyew eight; 28th Jul 2013 at 16:34.
I'm enjoying this thread.
I started flying in the late 70s and chose to avoid becomming a flight instructor and any sort of C&T role. Now in the later years of my career, and with a few teaching experiences in areas other than flying, I regret that decision. In recent years I've offen thought I'd enjoy getting involved in flying training for the satisfaction of handing my skills on and helping someone achieve their goals. I don't see that happening until after I retire from my present gig, and by then it might be too late.
However, I am getting vicarious instructional highs through this thread - so thank you, one-and-all, for your input here.
Pithblot
However, I am getting vicarious instructional highs through this thread - so thank you, one-and-all, for your input here.
Pithblot
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Australia
Posts: 889
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
you know that emergency over the local airstrip scenario.
it is bollocks.
it is bollocks.
But it's an excellent training tool from low key to the ground, as long as the instructor points out that a runway-shaped field is usually not the best choice for a FLWOP.*
Horses for courses, and being adaptable to meet the student's training needs, etc etc.
* If the runway is long, it becomes a good FLWOP site again. Make one's aim point halfway along a long runway, and the risks of wind change, overshoot, undershoot etc are well managed.
Last edited by Oktas8; 28th Jul 2013 at 22:52.
That is as sad as making people do ten hours plus to solo.
Or five hours for an aerobatic rating in a C150 or Citabria! Just think how many barrel rolls, stall turns, loops, rolls of the top and slow rolls you can do in five hours. A rip off as usual.
Or five hours for an aerobatic rating in a C150 or Citabria! Just think how many barrel rolls, stall turns, loops, rolls of the top and slow rolls you can do in five hours. A rip off as usual.
At a small airfield some instructors I know have recently been sending younger people solo in about 5-6 hours in an aircraft type with characteristics similar to the old Piper Colt.
djpil, sorry don't agree.
Centaurus is spot on.
Average to solo around 10 hrs by my guess. 7 if doing well.
Average for basic aeros 3hrs or so when done with tail wheel endorsement.
Average for tail wheel endorsement 3 hrs when done with aeros. Hardest thing was finding the right day for crosswinds.
As posted in another thread, I always recommended both to be done together as up to an hour of aeros is a waste of time for a student. Go do 15-20 min tops, come back to the circuit for the rest or their head is left spinning, pardon the pun.
Centaurus is spot on.
Average to solo around 10 hrs by my guess. 7 if doing well.
Average for basic aeros 3hrs or so when done with tail wheel endorsement.
Average for tail wheel endorsement 3 hrs when done with aeros. Hardest thing was finding the right day for crosswinds.
As posted in another thread, I always recommended both to be done together as up to an hour of aeros is a waste of time for a student. Go do 15-20 min tops, come back to the circuit for the rest or their head is left spinning, pardon the pun.
Average for basic aeros 3hrs or so when done with tail wheel endorsement.
Average for tail wheel endorsement 3 hrs when done with aeros. Hardest thing was finding the right day for crosswinds.
Average for tail wheel endorsement 3 hrs when done with aeros. Hardest thing was finding the right day for crosswinds.
It depends on what you mean by "basic" aerobatics, I guess. A C150 Aerobat isn't permitted stall turns or inverted flying (as in slow rolls) in the flight manual - only loops, aileron rolls, spins and a couple of other bits. I could teach that in 3 hours, perhaps.
In a Decathelon which can do a bit more, it would definitely by a minimum of 5 hours to cover most people expectations - "sportsman" standard (stall turns, combination loops/rolls, slow rolls etc etc).
Average for basic aeros 3hrs or so when done with tail wheel endorsement.
Average for tail wheel endorsement 3 hrs when done with aeros. Hardest thing was finding the right day for crosswinds.
Average for tail wheel endorsement 3 hrs when done with aeros. Hardest thing was finding the right day for crosswinds.
Dubbleyew Eight:
You say: You have to nail the whole thing perfectly or you are toast (referring to using a runway with bush at either end).
Isn't that the point, regardless of whether it's a runway or a paddock?
Select a paddock, aim for that, miss seeing a washout, a pile of rocks half-hidden in grass, or an ancient single strand telephone wire, and you're still toast?
You say: You have to nail the whole thing perfectly or you are toast (referring to using a runway with bush at either end).
Isn't that the point, regardless of whether it's a runway or a paddock?
Select a paddock, aim for that, miss seeing a washout, a pile of rocks half-hidden in grass, or an ancient single strand telephone wire, and you're still toast?
I would like to see more training done when the wind is howling, rain is bucketing down and the scud is barely above MSA. That approach teaches students to know how far they can go, and a bit of respect for the elements.
Join Date: May 2013
Location: have I forgotten or am I lost?
Age: 71
Posts: 1,126
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
when I put IS in red I had just come on to prune again and the highlight was to show what I had edited. looking at it now it does carry some emphasis that wasnt intended.
the strip selected was a short CALM strip in the hills of Perth. it was a small strip and had significant bushland either end. since then we have found that CALM or someone had run a 5 wire fence across the centre to stop people using the strip. there werent many droppers in the fence and it was totally invisible.
as it turned out it was a lifesaving choice though we didnt know it at the time because we were going to land.
subsequently on a forced practise I got caught applying flap a little early. in a full on glide early flap makes you into a plumbers toolbag. you never apply flap until you are over the nearside fence and are certain of making the strip. a lesson I was never taught. ....but taught myself.
as in any non bitumen landing if you have walked the area in question and are absolutely sure there are no rabbit holes, termite heaps, hidden rocks, near invisible fences and such then by all means use the strip. just looking down and thinking ah there is a strip we'll use that one. nah too risky.
the strip selected was a short CALM strip in the hills of Perth. it was a small strip and had significant bushland either end. since then we have found that CALM or someone had run a 5 wire fence across the centre to stop people using the strip. there werent many droppers in the fence and it was totally invisible.
as it turned out it was a lifesaving choice though we didnt know it at the time because we were going to land.
subsequently on a forced practise I got caught applying flap a little early. in a full on glide early flap makes you into a plumbers toolbag. you never apply flap until you are over the nearside fence and are certain of making the strip. a lesson I was never taught. ....but taught myself.
as in any non bitumen landing if you have walked the area in question and are absolutely sure there are no rabbit holes, termite heaps, hidden rocks, near invisible fences and such then by all means use the strip. just looking down and thinking ah there is a strip we'll use that one. nah too risky.
Join Date: May 2002
Location: Permanently lost
Posts: 1,785
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The ex-RAAF FOIs, however, went spastic
Check board & Aussiebob,
Yes, about 3 hrs each, 6 or so total. (Was clear to me ! )
Yes, Usual basics, spins, stall turns, loops, barrel rolls, aileron rolls, inverted flight
Yes, about 3 hrs each, 6 or so total. (Was clear to me !
)Yes, Usual basics, spins, stall turns, loops, barrel rolls, aileron rolls, inverted flight
Inverted flight in an aerobatic is prohibited due to gravity feeding from the tanks. Sometimes in a slow barrell roll she'd splutter.
Stall turns are fair game.
Probably because of the word 'stall' the modern crop of instructors **** themselves.
Stall turns are fair game.
Probably because of the word 'stall' the modern crop of instructors **** themselves.
PLovett,
I lost friends in that crash and, while I broadly agree with your sentiment regarding bleeding practice, I'm not sure what you're getting at re the 707 and how it links up with what ex-RAAF FOIs would or wouldn't do when confronted with a PFL into an airstrip.
I lost friends in that crash and, while I broadly agree with your sentiment regarding bleeding practice, I'm not sure what you're getting at re the 707 and how it links up with what ex-RAAF FOIs would or wouldn't do when confronted with a PFL into an airstrip.