Strange flight training practices
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Interesting point...
That is as sad as making people do ten hours plus to solo.
Or five hours for an aerobatic rating in a C150 or Citabria! Just think how many barrel rolls, stall turns, loops, rolls of the top and slow rolls you can do in five hours. A rip off as usual.
Or five hours for an aerobatic rating in a C150 or Citabria! Just think how many barrel rolls, stall turns, loops, rolls of the top and slow rolls you can do in five hours. A rip off as usual.
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What is the average time from TIF to first solo these days? From the point of view of those here...?
In saying so I've witnessed on a few occasions where I have seen a student do 35 hours before doing his first circuit solo and got his GFPT at 70 hours.
T&G.
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What is the average time from TIF to first solo these days? From the point of view of those here...?
back in the 70's the usual student was a young guy without a girlfriend or commitments. at the peak of their neurological development and taking 12 to 18 hours to solo.
now days with much older guys in the abinitio mix they must take much longer to tune the neurology and get the fine motor skills for competent flying.
methinks.
ymmv.
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35 hours? 65 hours? Jesus wept!!
A number of ideas and theories could be drawn from (this albeit small) sample -
Back in the day (pre war even) pilots seemed to solo quite quickly. I recall in Centaurus' book, he mentioned banging it out after 3-4 hours in a moth (please correct me if I'm wrong).
But now, that seems much higher, higher even from my peer group and my personal experience from the early 90's.
Is it defective instruction? Are instructors not teaching properly and therefore the student is taking longer to learn?
Are newer pilots dullards, and need 3 hours of intense instruction to put their pants on in the morning (would explain the 7am departure problem!)?
Are schools that short of cash, they need to keep milking their student cash cows for as long as possible?
Has over regulation and OH&S got everyone so paralysed with fear of somebody f@&king something up that every single manoeuvre and nuance of aircraft operation has to be over done to the extreme?
Is it some other factor I'm missing? A combination of factors?
Having not picked up a day VFR syllabus in *a fair while*, I assume the lesson order is something similar to -
TIF
EOC
Turns
S&L
Stalls
Circuits circuits circuits
Solo
Again, please feel free to correct anything I have wrong?
Not accusing anyone of anything, or stereotyping certain groups (Gen Y/baby boomers/etc) into certain pigeon holes, I'm just interested to hear what certain instructors think?
A number of ideas and theories could be drawn from (this albeit small) sample -
Back in the day (pre war even) pilots seemed to solo quite quickly. I recall in Centaurus' book, he mentioned banging it out after 3-4 hours in a moth (please correct me if I'm wrong).
But now, that seems much higher, higher even from my peer group and my personal experience from the early 90's.
Is it defective instruction? Are instructors not teaching properly and therefore the student is taking longer to learn?
Are newer pilots dullards, and need 3 hours of intense instruction to put their pants on in the morning (would explain the 7am departure problem!)?
Are schools that short of cash, they need to keep milking their student cash cows for as long as possible?
Has over regulation and OH&S got everyone so paralysed with fear of somebody f@&king something up that every single manoeuvre and nuance of aircraft operation has to be over done to the extreme?
Is it some other factor I'm missing? A combination of factors?
Having not picked up a day VFR syllabus in *a fair while*, I assume the lesson order is something similar to -
TIF
EOC
Turns
S&L
Stalls
Circuits circuits circuits
Solo
Again, please feel free to correct anything I have wrong?
Not accusing anyone of anything, or stereotyping certain groups (Gen Y/baby boomers/etc) into certain pigeon holes, I'm just interested to hear what certain instructors think?
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EoC, S&L, C&D, Turning, Stalling 1&2, Circuits (normal mainly, with some flapless & glide). The idea is that every phase of flight in a circuit has been taught thoroughly before the circuit is entered so the busy and distracting circuit phase consists entirely of putting existing skills to work, not teaching new skills. (Stalling excepted!)
With a weak instructor, either due to inexperience, poor training or other reasons, this may be rushed through. In this event many students will require extra practice pre-PPL.
A skilled and experienced instructor can give solid useful instruction for 10 hours before first solo, or more if the student needs revision - which most do.
Edit: in the good old days the syllabus was shorter and time to solo was less. There was perhaps less emphasis on programmed instruction, teaching from the known to the unknown in manageable steps etc, and more emphasis on "do what I do, when I do it" in aircraft and airspace that were less complex. But I could be completely wrong - I wasn't there!
With a weak instructor, either due to inexperience, poor training or other reasons, this may be rushed through. In this event many students will require extra practice pre-PPL.
A skilled and experienced instructor can give solid useful instruction for 10 hours before first solo, or more if the student needs revision - which most do.
Edit: in the good old days the syllabus was shorter and time to solo was less. There was perhaps less emphasis on programmed instruction, teaching from the known to the unknown in manageable steps etc, and more emphasis on "do what I do, when I do it" in aircraft and airspace that were less complex. But I could be completely wrong - I wasn't there!
Last edited by Oktas8; 27th Jul 2013 at 22:50.
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When I was abinitio trained in 1980 the group of us, all 16-18 years old and already well theory trained, and flying all week went solo From 7-10 hours. 
Some maybe longer.
Our instructor were all current Airline pilots and mine ex WW2 RAAF as well!
As an instructor I trained many older, less studious Pilots who were part time and they took longer. I would have thought 10-15 hours would be typical if done with no gaps.
Some maybe longer.
Our instructor were all current Airline pilots and mine ex WW2 RAAF as well!
As an instructor I trained many older, less studious Pilots who were part time and they took longer. I would have thought 10-15 hours would be typical if done with no gaps.
For those not currently instructing, why don't you do something about it, and start instructing again?
Sadly,"compliance" takes precedence over the adequate teaching needed to produce a competent pilot.
- You can fly down to the ground when take-off or landing, with permission of the owner - and nothing says you can't go-around. So find a friendly local, supply them with ale/lager/xxxx, and use their back paddock as a PFL area. (Of course, you checked for wires beforehand.)
- You can use any normal airfield. I often do PFLs over quiet country airfields - and it's generally amusing.
Me: Oh look, there's an airfield. .... What would you do if we had an engine failure now?
Student: (Carefully recalling wording of the briefing.) I would select a field landing into the wind.
Me: Which field?
Student: (Looks around carefully and picks distant paddock.) That one.
Me: WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT AIRFIELD?
Student: (Invariable ashamed smile.)
Me: (Closing throttle and sitting back.) Oh dear, we've just had an engine failure.
Well, something has to keep small-minded instructors amused. And students seem quite reliable in following my script. Student: (Carefully recalling wording of the briefing.) I would select a field landing into the wind.
Me: Which field?
Student: (Looks around carefully and picks distant paddock.) That one.
Me: WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT AIRFIELD?
Student: (Invariable ashamed smile.)
Me: (Closing throttle and sitting back.) Oh dear, we've just had an engine failure.
Last edited by drpixie; 28th Jul 2013 at 00:18.
In 1963, I trained at Archerfield. It was really so much easier then because it was allover grass, and the circuit just changed to suit - always into wind landing. 6-12 hrs to solo in an Auster, or a new fangled C150 was about usual. And, everyone was <25 yo, and yes, the instructors were mostly ex RAF,RAAF or current airline. The fun began on navex's because we then had to land on a runway - and if anything, I'd say we were all less skilled in crosswind ops than my current students on completion of training.
happy days,
happy days,
For those not currently instructing, why don't you do something about it, and start instructing again?
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some students i have seen who went solo with very low hours, no idea about airmanship, correct radio procedures, correct aircraft operating procedures, no idea what to do in an emergency, gee, some had no idea what mixture did! sure, they could fly a circuit solo, but thats all they could do. most even bragged about it.. 
Thread Starter
re: Time to solo
There are many many variables in civilian flight training compared to WWII military flight training and I don't think you can compare the results.
For a start, we aren't training 'em up as cannon fodder. We don't need to pump them out as fast as possible to throw them at the enemy. I have had quite a few (typically young, male) students who would probably be OK going for a lap on their own after 6-8 hours... but why not jam a couple more hours in and be certain?
Second, as many have said above, an 18-20 year old with fire in the belly, a Spitfire in his future and a military boot up his arse is going to be far more motivated and focussed than a 40 year old mother of 2 who is also working as a bank manager AND needs to find the money for a flying lesson AND ballet lessons for the kids etc etc etc.
I reckon most of my students under 50 would be competent to go first solo if I could fly them 2 lessons/day for 7-10 days. The intensity and consistency of effort pays dividends, but there a few who can spare the time (or the blocks of money).
For many of them, having the confidence to go solo is also an issue (having survived our teens and 20's it seems self-preservation kicks in).
18-20 year old males are a very small minority in our operation so our training is very much focussed on the other side of the market. Simultaneously frustrating and rewarding. 
For a start, we aren't training 'em up as cannon fodder. We don't need to pump them out as fast as possible to throw them at the enemy. I have had quite a few (typically young, male) students who would probably be OK going for a lap on their own after 6-8 hours... but why not jam a couple more hours in and be certain?
Second, as many have said above, an 18-20 year old with fire in the belly, a Spitfire in his future and a military boot up his arse is going to be far more motivated and focussed than a 40 year old mother of 2 who is also working as a bank manager AND needs to find the money for a flying lesson AND ballet lessons for the kids etc etc etc.
I reckon most of my students under 50 would be competent to go first solo if I could fly them 2 lessons/day for 7-10 days. The intensity and consistency of effort pays dividends, but there a few who can spare the time (or the blocks of money).
For many of them, having the confidence to go solo is also an issue (having survived our teens and 20's it seems self-preservation kicks in).
18-20 year old males are a very small minority in our operation so our training is very much focussed on the other side of the market. Simultaneously frustrating and rewarding.
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For the average guy in the airlines how feasible is it it do a bit of instructing on the side?
Edit: I used to teach pre-selected young guys in their early to mid twenties. Motivation and ability were both there in spades. It is difficult to teach true attitude flying in less than ten hours to solo however. Show me someone who solo'd in less than ten hours, and I will (usually) show you someone who needed just as many hours as anyone else to achieve CPL / MEIR. Hence, a long time to solo can say something about the student, but a short time to solo says more about the instructor / training system, than it does about the student.
Last edited by Oktas8; 28th Jul 2013 at 03:36.
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At my flying school, hours to solo varied quite a bit. However as Oktas mentions, most of us sat our CPLs on the minimum requirement. I remember one mature guy that took a little longer than the rest to solo- his biggest problem was taxiing!
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Is there are demand for former instructors?
Just wondering if there is a demand for former instructors who are currently flying for the airlines and would like to return to instructing. I'm thinking about renewing my Grade 2 and the airline I work for will allow external flying, which would equate to 1-2 days per week.
some students i have seen who went solo with very low hours, no idea about airmanship, correct radio procedures, correct aircraft operating procedures, no idea what to do in an emergency, gee, some had no idea what mixture did! sure, they could fly a circuit solo, but thats all they could do. most even bragged about it..
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Just wondering if there is a demand for former instructors who are currently flying for the airlines and would like to return to instructing. I'm thinking about renewing my Grade 2 and the airline I work for will allow external flying, which would equate to 1-2 days per week
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Thanks for the reply VH-FTS.
It's a shame if that's what they would think, as like what the others have said when learnt to fly most of the CFI's and senior Intructors were airliine pilots who had a passion to want to pass on knowledge, rather than chase hours.
Rather than see those returning to instructing from the airlines, the instructors (and CFI's) should see it a resource and tap into the knowledge that they may have. They could also be used in a mentoring role for both the students and instructors.
It's a shame if that's what they would think, as like what the others have said when learnt to fly most of the CFI's and senior Intructors were airliine pilots who had a passion to want to pass on knowledge, rather than chase hours.
Rather than see those returning to instructing from the airlines, the instructors (and CFI's) should see it a resource and tap into the knowledge that they may have. They could also be used in a mentoring role for both the students and instructors.