Any Twin Comanche Drivers?
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Have owned two tin cans, a 30 with C/R and a 39. 39's have a bigger (thicker) stabilator. 150 kts TAS and 60 lts p/h. For me they were economical, huge endurance ( 7 with tips) go ok at 150, solid and comfortable. The small nose wheel STC made the TC a much better aircraft to land rather than the controlled crash. Again, For me they are the best bang for buck in the little twin range. The C/R was better balanced but really made for two critical engines...to quote Jimmy H. lol
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Interestingly enough, I had occasion to borrow a mates's PA-39 the other day to go bush in a hurry.
With only two on board plus out-and-back [sorry Owen!] fuel, the only way it could meet the trim requirement was to seat my wife in the middle seat. We had minimal overnight baggage and our usual 15l water drum right in the back.
This made the flare and touchdown just fine, plus the fact that my wife felt she'd spread out in First Class!
After 40 years of airline flying, I was able to use this aircraft to do my first GA CIR renewal following the endorsement and GNSS rating. It's a delight!!
G'day
With only two on board plus out-and-back [sorry Owen!] fuel, the only way it could meet the trim requirement was to seat my wife in the middle seat. We had minimal overnight baggage and our usual 15l water drum right in the back.
This made the flare and touchdown just fine, plus the fact that my wife felt she'd spread out in First Class!
After 40 years of airline flying, I was able to use this aircraft to do my first GA CIR renewal following the endorsement and GNSS rating. It's a delight!!
G'day
...sheeez Dr
how can ya remember that far back?
............& what have ya done since? That's a looooooong time between drinks there
Looks like plenty of good memories here of the old twin can.
What was the name of that other 160HPx2 light twin? Grumman something? Never heard much of that machine.
Bugga, old age...Cougar...yeah
Wmk2
how can ya remember that far back?............& what have ya done since? That's a looooooong time between drinks thereLooks like plenty of good memories here of the old twin can.
What was the name of that other 160HPx2 light twin? Grumman something? Never heard much of that machine.
Bugga, old age...Cougar...yeah
Wmk2
Have owned two tin cans, a 30 with C/R and a 39. 39's have a bigger (thicker) stabilator. 150 kts TAS and 60 lts p/h. For me they were economical, huge endurance ( 7 with tips) go ok at 150, solid and comfortable. The small nose wheel STC made the TC a much better aircraft to land rather than the controlled crash. Again, For me they are the best bang for buck in the little twin range. The C/R was better balanced but really made for two critical engines...to quote Jimmy H. lol
The PA30 climbs better and goes faster. It's a well know fact C/R engined aircraft need more power to go as fast as the non C/R variant. That's why Piper made the C/R Navajo 325 Hp compared to the 310 HP non C/R.
From an ownership point of view with spares etc the props are different as are the starters. I'd take the PA30 any day.
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The '39 was introduced because of the stall/spin accidents. Nearly 4000 hrs in TC's. Robertson STOL changes the aircraft completely...added MTOW 4 up full fuel and bags. Have to disagree the 30 is faster. Bout the same, many TC's are rigged incorrectly, condition of paint, dings etc all have to be considered. They are a mighty aircraft...if you get a good one. I liked the 39 because there were only 155 manufactured before the flood at Loch Haven and as such they are pretty unique. True the starters etc can be a pain in the arse.
Last edited by PA39; 30th Jul 2013 at 07:42.
I got about 3 hours of SEX back in the 70's! 
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 30th Jul 2013 at 08:25.
The '39 was introduced because of the stall/spin accidents.
****e Forky,
I did my CPL & Instr with Aircraft Rentals - John Cougle principal, and the Hon. 'Father' Ray McLean the CFI...and well remember the night we 'toasted' the proposal to reserve the rego's 'SEX' 'SIN' & 'SON'....and park them outside in that order......
SEX was delivered, whilst the other two were delayed and then went somewhere else.....
Just after I got my CPL in 1966.... Happy Daze.....
I did my CPL & Instr with Aircraft Rentals - John Cougle principal, and the Hon. 'Father' Ray McLean the CFI...and well remember the night we 'toasted' the proposal to reserve the rego's 'SEX' 'SIN' & 'SON'....and park them outside in that order......
SEX was delivered, whilst the other two were delayed and then went somewhere else.....
Just after I got my CPL in 1966.... Happy Daze.....
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Yes the stall strips were added to reduce the accident rate but after the number of prangs The Comanche which had a disasterous reputation, Piper bought out their "ultimate" safety development...the C/R. Then they bought out the official CR/R with the Robertson. However a go around with full flap should you have an assymetric flap occurrence you were basically cactus unless you were quick enough to retract the other side and recover the situation...so they bought out a mod (spring) to prevent full flap assymetrics.
The tin can was reasonably vunerable to flat spins once assym. Saw one spin in from 6000 while the pilot screamed through the radio, all the way to the ground.
Jimmy H asked me 30+ yrs ago if I could REALLY fly the TC I had approx. 1500 hrs in them. He took me up, went assymetric, into a flat spin and ONLY recovered with assymetric throttle movement amd control column pull and shove. Made me do it over and over again until he was satisfied I could recover correctly. THEN I could handle a TC.
The tin can was reasonably vunerable to flat spins once assym. Saw one spin in from 6000 while the pilot screamed through the radio, all the way to the ground.
Jimmy H asked me 30+ yrs ago if I could REALLY fly the TC I had approx. 1500 hrs in them. He took me up, went assymetric, into a flat spin and ONLY recovered with assymetric throttle movement amd control column pull and shove. Made me do it over and over again until he was satisfied I could recover correctly. THEN I could handle a TC.
Last edited by PA39; 31st Jul 2013 at 02:09.
Christ '39' one has to wonder the merits in doing that. Sounds very risky & that's why that sort of thing is not taught generally in any airframe for that matter.
I got my 'twin can' endo a 100 yrs ago & it didn't include anything like that but I was told to be aware of that sort of thing if coming close to a stall in a VMCA situation.
Old Jack Funnel (may he rest in peace) at MIA showed me how not to get into an unsafe scenario in the '44', that was more valuable to me at the time I reckon being green as a blade of grass on twins.
Go-around with full flaps down in any light twin is fraught with danger, one has to wonder again the wise-ness in that maneuver.
Anyway at the end of the day every pilot is as safe as his prior training, the most valuable of that is how NOT to get into those situations in the first place.
Wmk2
I got my 'twin can' endo a 100 yrs ago & it didn't include anything like that but I was told to be aware of that sort of thing if coming close to a stall in a VMCA situation.
Old Jack Funnel (may he rest in peace) at MIA showed me how not to get into an unsafe scenario in the '44', that was more valuable to me at the time I reckon being green as a blade of grass on twins.
Go-around with full flaps down in any light twin is fraught with danger, one has to wonder again the wise-ness in that maneuver.
Anyway at the end of the day every pilot is as safe as his prior training, the most valuable of that is how NOT to get into those situations in the first place.
Wmk2
Last edited by Wally Mk2; 31st Jul 2013 at 02:21.
He took me up, went assymetric, into a flat spin and ONLY recovered with assymetric throttle movement amd control column pull and shove. Made me do it over and over again ......
I bet the Twin Comanche isn't the only twin that would go into a flat spin.
True the Twin Comanche had a bad rep but as has already been mentioned by 27/09 this was partly due to the FAA training requirements at the time ( low level Vmca demos), but to deliberately spin one I find incomprehensible!!!!!!!!
I was lucky enough to have received some very good advice from a Comanche guru in the US, he had owned a flying school with Twin Comanches. His advice was to never let the aircraft go past 45 degrees angle of bank during a Vmca exercise. He has some other very good tips as well. I have given many hours of type intro and IFR instruction in the PA30 without ever having a problem.
Go-around with full flaps down in any light twin is fraught with danger, one has to wonder again the wise-ness in that maneuver.
Anyway at the end of the day every pilot is as safe as his prior training, the most valuable of that is how NOT to get into those situations in the first place.
Last edited by KeepItStraight; 31st Jul 2013 at 09:38.
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Wally Mk 2, Jack Funnell was a great aviator and an even greater gentleman.
On rare occassions a go around in a light twin with full flap is inevitable....some dick wad pull out of the holding point onto the rwy as you pass committal height on short final. It happens.
On rare occassions a go around in a light twin with full flap is inevitable....some dick wad pull out of the holding point onto the rwy as you pass committal height on short final. It happens.
Yeah good 'ole JF, everybody loved Jack, a real character
He once told me whilst I was killing time in MIA that CASA pretty much made it too hard & not worth while anymore to own/operate the twin, he stuck to his beloved SE toy planes.
It was a privilege to have known Jack, I hope he's up there somewhere moving aside as he always did for the 'big boy's to come on into MIA unhindered
Soz for the thread drift guys but it's worth t!
Yes '39' I know there might be the odd occasion where a go-around is the safest option but the secret there in say yr scenario is to gain speed in level flight first b4 pulling up the first stage of flap as climbing initially wouldn't be the priority.
If there was ever a slight chance that a go-around might be needed at the last minute then providing the rwy was adequate length wise App flap was used for ldg giving one a better margin, just the way Jack said to consider it & I never forgot that.
I used to drive the old DH104's, full flap meant (40deg's) you where committed & going only one way...down !:-) I used to treat all light twins the same way full flap was the same as applying the brakes, it's all part of stopping:-)
Wmk2
He once told me whilst I was killing time in MIA that CASA pretty much made it too hard & not worth while anymore to own/operate the twin, he stuck to his beloved SE toy planes.
It was a privilege to have known Jack, I hope he's up there somewhere moving aside as he always did for the 'big boy's to come on into MIA unhindered
Soz for the thread drift guys but it's worth t!
Yes '39' I know there might be the odd occasion where a go-around is the safest option but the secret there in say yr scenario is to gain speed in level flight first b4 pulling up the first stage of flap as climbing initially wouldn't be the priority.
If there was ever a slight chance that a go-around might be needed at the last minute then providing the rwy was adequate length wise App flap was used for ldg giving one a better margin, just the way Jack said to consider it & I never forgot that.
I used to drive the old DH104's, full flap meant (40deg's) you where committed & going only one way...down !:-) I used to treat all light twins the same way full flap was the same as applying the brakes, it's all part of stopping:-)
Wmk2
Last edited by Wally Mk2; 31st Jul 2013 at 12:42.
Go-around with full flaps down in any light twin is fraught with danger, one has to wonder again the wise-ness in that maneuver.
And yep, PA39, I have had more than one of the aforementioned numptys do that.
The Seneca is another that will roll on it's back if a full flap go-around becomes asymmetric.
Given full flap, high drag, low speed and asymmetric thrust, I think most twins would roll on their backs!
