Working as ATC post 2009
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age debate
im 42, and have some concerns re the age of being a trainee. i have a family but very supportive though i am concerned about these percentages of fail rate.
wouldnt the testing process pick this up and determine a person is to slow or no good??????
wouldnt the testing process pick this up and determine a person is to slow or no good??????
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Greg, this is in no way dis-respectful. The older you get, the worse the odds become. It's not discounting whatever you've achieved in your past life. I've known uni grads with masters fail, I've known ex-tradies with year 10 pass (
)
While I'm not sure what the odds are for 42 year olds, there are ATC's on this bulletin board WHO ARE INSTRUCTORS IN THE COLLEGE. They've pretty much seen it all, listen to what they say
P.S. there is not an aptitude test anywhere in the world that is a good predictor. If there was ASA would pay lots of millions for it, a failed ATC trainee costs **** loads of money.
)While I'm not sure what the odds are for 42 year olds, there are ATC's on this bulletin board WHO ARE INSTRUCTORS IN THE COLLEGE. They've pretty much seen it all, listen to what they say
P.S. there is not an aptitude test anywhere in the world that is a good predictor. If there was ASA would pay lots of millions for it, a failed ATC trainee costs **** loads of money.
Last edited by Jack Ranga; 24th Jul 2013 at 12:13.
Jack is right. Any selection process can only really pick out that you have certain abilities and aptitudes - the raw material for building a controller. Whether you can pull it all together or not is what's determined during the course and field training.
Yes, the older you are the harder it gets, but whether it's too hard comes down to you as an individual, and whether it all comes together enough in the given time. Hard work and study can only take you so far down that road.
Yes, the older you are the harder it gets, but whether it's too hard comes down to you as an individual, and whether it all comes together enough in the given time. Hard work and study can only take you so far down that road.
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Here's my 2 cents- take it for what you will.
My advice to anyone would be: Do not leave a career to attempt ATC. That is, any career that will suffer if you take 12 months off. If you have a 'job', and could get another 'job' (and this will take some introspection and self- knowledge), then by all means, have a go. Consider whether you actually like learning, challenges, change etc.
Additionally, if you are over 30, there is more to consider. Imho, the reasons older trainees struggle are twofold: 1. You simply don't learn as quickly as you once did, and 2. the pressure on you is much greater- you have family considerations, financial commitments (think....going into that sim exam near the end of training, you feel like it could go either way, what will the wife think when I have to tell her I've failed and we have to move again and I haven't got a job and my family and friends will all know and I have to go back to that **** job and how are we going to get thru the next month with no money and the kids will have to find a new school and...you get the idea. The 22year-old next to you is relaxed and thinking "if I flunk I will be able to go to that piss up next week". It's a simplification, but you get the drift.). It is very difficult to free your cognitive mind of those stresses.
As many have previously mentioned, passing the testing and having the desire are simply not enough. Strange, but that's the way it is. However, it's a really good job with a decent remuneration (well above average). You have to weigh up what is right for you. You say you have a supportive family; that should go quite a way to helping you make the decision.
My advice to anyone would be: Do not leave a career to attempt ATC. That is, any career that will suffer if you take 12 months off. If you have a 'job', and could get another 'job' (and this will take some introspection and self- knowledge), then by all means, have a go. Consider whether you actually like learning, challenges, change etc.
Additionally, if you are over 30, there is more to consider. Imho, the reasons older trainees struggle are twofold: 1. You simply don't learn as quickly as you once did, and 2. the pressure on you is much greater- you have family considerations, financial commitments (think....going into that sim exam near the end of training, you feel like it could go either way, what will the wife think when I have to tell her I've failed and we have to move again and I haven't got a job and my family and friends will all know and I have to go back to that **** job and how are we going to get thru the next month with no money and the kids will have to find a new school and...you get the idea. The 22year-old next to you is relaxed and thinking "if I flunk I will be able to go to that piss up next week". It's a simplification, but you get the drift.). It is very difficult to free your cognitive mind of those stresses.
As many have previously mentioned, passing the testing and having the desire are simply not enough. Strange, but that's the way it is. However, it's a really good job with a decent remuneration (well above average). You have to weigh up what is right for you. You say you have a supportive family; that should go quite a way to helping you make the decision.
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age
what about previous experience in the aviation industry, would that help with the study and understanding???? i hold a commercial pilots licence and previously was a flight data officer for 10 years.
i know this wont readily contribute to the practical side but maybe less to learn???
i know this wont readily contribute to the practical side but maybe less to learn???
The study & understanding are the easy bits - a CPL & flight data experience will give you a bit of a leg-up in that you already know the phonetic alphabet, what VOR, DME, ILS, SSR, "insert acronym here" are, you speak the lingo and you know how the "system" fits together. A lot of which will make you a better controller in the end because it means you know the other guys job.
Unfortunately it doesn't really help much with basic controlling. The bits you really need to know as a controller aren't technically challenging - memory work mainly.
Where your previous experience will likely help you is in pulling all the stuff you'll be taught together. Handling a dynamic environment with changing priorities and time pressures. All the while doing it within strict constraints.
And that's the hard bit that can't really be taught other than by experience building on existing aptitudes. The more experienced can provide tips, but it's up to you to build them into techniques you can use.
Unfortunately it doesn't really help much with basic controlling. The bits you really need to know as a controller aren't technically challenging - memory work mainly.
Where your previous experience will likely help you is in pulling all the stuff you'll be taught together. Handling a dynamic environment with changing priorities and time pressures. All the while doing it within strict constraints.
And that's the hard bit that can't really be taught other than by experience building on existing aptitudes. The more experienced can provide tips, but it's up to you to build them into techniques you can use.
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Yes and no. As Jack says, previous experience helped him out. Prior knowledge helps you early in the course, but later could be a burden.
What a pilot license/experience helps you with is understanding the stuff early in the course. Later, it doesn't help you at all. later in the course is all about applying what you have learned (a very complex rule set) to differing practical scenarios (the real world) in a time-critical environment.
The intangible thing is: "Can you do ATC"? Nothing prior helps you with that.
I'm sorry, I can't give you black and white here. You just have to suck it and see.
Whether you want to give up your life to 'suck it', is up to you.
What a pilot license/experience helps you with is understanding the stuff early in the course. Later, it doesn't help you at all. later in the course is all about applying what you have learned (a very complex rule set) to differing practical scenarios (the real world) in a time-critical environment.
The intangible thing is: "Can you do ATC"? Nothing prior helps you with that.
I'm sorry, I can't give you black and white here. You just have to suck it and see.
Whether you want to give up your life to 'suck it', is up to you.
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Probably discussed elsewhere, but..
Can anybody recommend some simulator products that might give me a realistic idea of using the tools? Of course, doing well in a simulator doesn't mean I'll be good on job - I get that.
I am currently using the following, and would be interested in hearing how close these are to reality from actual controllers.
http://www.appcontrolgame.com/voice-edition/
HD version for iPad
LineUp With Math Simulator!
I haven't used this but it seems like it might be worth the purchase.
Welcome to the ATCsimulatorŽ2 Website
Not sure why my links have gone like that...
Can anybody recommend some simulator products that might give me a realistic idea of using the tools? Of course, doing well in a simulator doesn't mean I'll be good on job - I get that.
I am currently using the following, and would be interested in hearing how close these are to reality from actual controllers.
http://www.appcontrolgame.com/voice-edition/
HD version for iPad
LineUp With Math Simulator!
I haven't used this but it seems like it might be worth the purchase.
Welcome to the ATCsimulatorŽ2 Website
Not sure why my links have gone like that...
Last edited by 9SL9; 26th Jul 2013 at 00:56.
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9SL9, I haven't played any of those games, but unless you are going to work straight onto Approach (you wont..) that's all any of those sims are really. I'll use an example to explain.
70% of Aust airspace isn't under radar coverage, and those sectors need controllers too. In fact, todays trainees are likely to end up on a Procedural sector..You are separating aeroplanes using the navigation tolerances of their onboard equipment and the ground based navigation aids they are using. You are using distance standards that require timed distance reports from the pilot (if you can), you are determining definite passing, you are step climbing aeroplanes vertically based on pilot altitude reports, you are calculating whether 2 aeroplanes crossing each other at the same level will 'hit' or not based on their tolerances, and then deciding and assigning a new level for the right one if they don't fit (and the 'right' one better be right or you are about to paint yourself into a real bad corner in 20 minutes or so..), Jetstar and Tiger are one on top of the other and are both going to want to go down soon, you are voice coordinating every one of these aircraft with the next ATC. And you can't "see" any of them..
Added to that you are passing directed traffic information to aircraft octa and adverse weather reports mandatorily, you are dealing with weather diversions and bad comms, maybe a navaid failure or two, some Flying Doctors going direct..............and then the afternoon gaggle begins.
Someone simulates all that, and you'll get a good leg-up into ATC
p.s they are good for mental maths and practicing your left and rights!
70% of Aust airspace isn't under radar coverage, and those sectors need controllers too. In fact, todays trainees are likely to end up on a Procedural sector..You are separating aeroplanes using the navigation tolerances of their onboard equipment and the ground based navigation aids they are using. You are using distance standards that require timed distance reports from the pilot (if you can), you are determining definite passing, you are step climbing aeroplanes vertically based on pilot altitude reports, you are calculating whether 2 aeroplanes crossing each other at the same level will 'hit' or not based on their tolerances, and then deciding and assigning a new level for the right one if they don't fit (and the 'right' one better be right or you are about to paint yourself into a real bad corner in 20 minutes or so..), Jetstar and Tiger are one on top of the other and are both going to want to go down soon, you are voice coordinating every one of these aircraft with the next ATC. And you can't "see" any of them..
Added to that you are passing directed traffic information to aircraft octa and adverse weather reports mandatorily, you are dealing with weather diversions and bad comms, maybe a navaid failure or two, some Flying Doctors going direct..............and then the afternoon gaggle begins.
Someone simulates all that, and you'll get a good leg-up into ATC
p.s they are good for mental maths and practicing your left and rights!
Last edited by Hempy; 26th Jul 2013 at 15:31.
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Trainee wage til you become an operational trainee (12-14 months, maybe considerably more..never less), then after you get a licence (3-6 months, maybe more...never less) you go up one level a year if your performance is considered satisfactory. 'Satisfactory' will include further endorsements (ability to work on more than one piece of airspace).
Last edited by Hempy; 26th Jul 2013 at 15:12.
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wow, 14 months notice for leave sounds unreasonable, even inhumane!
So, to those ATCs out there....
You get a call from a family member in the USA. They're coming to see you in three weeks time for a one week visit. This is their only window of opportunity to come see you....what do you do?
A - tell them you're rostered on and they need to give you 14 months notice next time
B - say nothing to your boss and call in sick for a week
C - play the sympathy card to your colleagues and hope they are willing to swap shifts
D - ??
So, to those ATCs out there....
You get a call from a family member in the USA. They're coming to see you in three weeks time for a one week visit. This is their only window of opportunity to come see you....what do you do?
A - tell them you're rostered on and they need to give you 14 months notice next time
B - say nothing to your boss and call in sick for a week
C - play the sympathy card to your colleagues and hope they are willing to swap shifts
D - ??
You can apply for leave up to 14 months in advance.
B - is a good recipe for getting sacked.
My experience in over 30 years is see your Manager about what they can do for you - you will normally get something, then see your fellow controllers about any possibility of shift swaps.
B - is a good recipe for getting sacked.
My experience in over 30 years is see your Manager about what they can do for you - you will normally get something, then see your fellow controllers about any possibility of shift swaps.
A - there's no guarantee you'll get the leave you're requesting, even that far out because you're competing with your colleagues
B - good luck in finding a doctor to give you a medical certificate, then start looking for a new job
C - swapping shifts often isn't easy as there are rules
D - make do with what you can get
It's a resource problem in that a given number of controllers with a given number of ratings is required to run a group, and that's what's it's staffed for. For you to get time off a replacement needs to be supplied. Fine if its' all scheduled but a problem otherwise.
B - good luck in finding a doctor to give you a medical certificate, then start looking for a new job
C - swapping shifts often isn't easy as there are rules
D - make do with what you can get
It's a resource problem in that a given number of controllers with a given number of ratings is required to run a group, and that's what's it's staffed for. For you to get time off a replacement needs to be supplied. Fine if its' all scheduled but a problem otherwise.
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y-b, you can forget it mate.
A: on my group is booked solid apart from dribs & drabs of 3,4 or 4 days off. Who do you know takes hols for 4 days?
B: well...........
C: your colleagues are willing but the smartest guys in the room have completely ****** this up too.
D: any reasonable employer in these types of industries carries enough staff to cover un-planned absences, sickness, family reasons etc. airlines have reserve rosters. But NAVCANADA has confirmed all is honky dory
I'm sure ASA will do the same in return 
I lost a family member years ago, my manager at the time was brilliant, I won't forget what he did for me at the time. I also had a few life challenges recently that was dealt with by my manager very well.
In the circumstances you talk of the organisation is a joke. I know it because I have a close family member that lives overseas. She doesn't have the luxury of knowing what she's doing 14 months ahead.
Your footy team makes the granny, could you predict it 14 months ahead & no one on your group wants leave? Forget it.
Do you know the date of sporting events you participate in 14 months ahead & nobody on your group wants leave? Forget it.
The person who decides whether you get leave doesn't have a problem getting the leave they want
Is this worth the 30% 'loading' you get on the salary? The salary don't look so good when you minus this.
A: on my group is booked solid apart from dribs & drabs of 3,4 or 4 days off. Who do you know takes hols for 4 days?
B: well...........
C: your colleagues are willing but the smartest guys in the room have completely ****** this up too.
D: any reasonable employer in these types of industries carries enough staff to cover un-planned absences, sickness, family reasons etc. airlines have reserve rosters. But NAVCANADA has confirmed all is honky dory
I'm sure ASA will do the same in return I lost a family member years ago, my manager at the time was brilliant, I won't forget what he did for me at the time. I also had a few life challenges recently that was dealt with by my manager very well.
In the circumstances you talk of the organisation is a joke. I know it because I have a close family member that lives overseas. She doesn't have the luxury of knowing what she's doing 14 months ahead.
Your footy team makes the granny, could you predict it 14 months ahead & no one on your group wants leave? Forget it.
Do you know the date of sporting events you participate in 14 months ahead & nobody on your group wants leave? Forget it.
The person who decides whether you get leave doesn't have a problem getting the leave they want
Is this worth the 30% 'loading' you get on the salary? The salary don't look so good when you minus this.
