BEST ANGLE vs BEST RATE of climb
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BEST ANGLE vs BEST RATE of climb
Hello
Please explain what is vx and vy?
What I have learned is best angle of climb is that speed u gain max height at minimum distance. And best rate of climb is that speed u get max height at minimum time. So if two aircrafts with same configuration and weights and power under same condition start to climb to 5000 feet AGL.but the difference is that one is maintaining Vx best angle and the other one vy best rate of climb. My question is which aircraft will reach 5000 feet first. Please give aerodynamic reference?
Please explain what is vx and vy?
What I have learned is best angle of climb is that speed u gain max height at minimum distance. And best rate of climb is that speed u get max height at minimum time. So if two aircrafts with same configuration and weights and power under same condition start to climb to 5000 feet AGL.but the difference is that one is maintaining Vx best angle and the other one vy best rate of climb. My question is which aircraft will reach 5000 feet first. Please give aerodynamic reference?
I think you have already answered your own question.
The aircraft flying at Vy (best rate of climb speed) will get to 5000 feet before the aircraft flying at Vx (best angle of climb speed) but it will cover more ground in doing so.
Vx results in a steeper, slower climb while Vy gives a faster, shallower climb.
The POH will provide the relevant speeds for a particular aircraft.
The aircraft flying at Vy (best rate of climb speed) will get to 5000 feet before the aircraft flying at Vx (best angle of climb speed) but it will cover more ground in doing so.
Vx results in a steeper, slower climb while Vy gives a faster, shallower climb.
The POH will provide the relevant speeds for a particular aircraft.
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My cheeky response, which is of far more use to the young real world pilots, not those doing an assignment or theory exam.
The one who gets to 5000' with optimal engine parameters, and had greater safety margin in the early part of the take off is the pilot who used best rate plus 10-35 knots (depending on type).
He also got to 5000' a little further down range, and had a better view of traffic along the way etc.
The one who gets to 5000' with optimal engine parameters, and had greater safety margin in the early part of the take off is the pilot who used best rate plus 10-35 knots (depending on type).
He also got to 5000' a little further down range, and had a better view of traffic along the way etc.
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Think about it simply.
Angle is a measurement in relation to the horizontal.
Rate is a measurement in relation to time.
Therefore:
Best angle will give you the greatest vertical height increase for the shortest horizontal distance travelled.
Best rate will give you the greatest vertical height increase for time airborne.
The aircraft are climbing at different airspeeds, and thus different groundspeeds.
You may be confusing yourself by stating that two identical planes are operating at the same power... don't forget that you could be at 100% power and pointing straight up, completely straight and level, or straight down- or anywhere in between, and so your rates and angles are all going to be different.
It all has to do with your power/thrust curves and which speed you get the max excess.
Angle is a measurement in relation to the horizontal.
Rate is a measurement in relation to time.
Therefore:
Best angle will give you the greatest vertical height increase for the shortest horizontal distance travelled.
Best rate will give you the greatest vertical height increase for time airborne.
The aircraft are climbing at different airspeeds, and thus different groundspeeds.
You may be confusing yourself by stating that two identical planes are operating at the same power... don't forget that you could be at 100% power and pointing straight up, completely straight and level, or straight down- or anywhere in between, and so your rates and angles are all going to be different.
It all has to do with your power/thrust curves and which speed you get the max excess.
Best Rate is based on excess power and best angle is based on excess thrust over what's available for straight and level flight.
Vy occurs at a higher airspeed than Vx and Vx occurs at a higher AoA than Vy so more induced drag at Vx.
Just think of rate being work done over time, so even tho the angle of climb as we look at it from the ground looks steeper, and it is, the best rate of climb gives us the best climb performance both vertically and horizontally(over a period of say 2 mins) mainly due to there being less drag to overcome at that angle of attack.
Several books cover it pretty well Bob tait for basics and mechanics of flight for something a little more in depth..
Vy occurs at a higher airspeed than Vx and Vx occurs at a higher AoA than Vy so more induced drag at Vx.
Just think of rate being work done over time, so even tho the angle of climb as we look at it from the ground looks steeper, and it is, the best rate of climb gives us the best climb performance both vertically and horizontally(over a period of say 2 mins) mainly due to there being less drag to overcome at that angle of attack.
Several books cover it pretty well Bob tait for basics and mechanics of flight for something a little more in depth..
Last edited by Homesick-Angel; 27th Jun 2013 at 23:26.
Vx is maximum excess thrust over thrust required for LEVEL flight
Vy is maximum excess power over power required for LEVEL flight
Vy is maximum excess power over power required for LEVEL flight
What's the difference between excess power & excess thrust?
Power = Thrust * velocity
so whenever you know the thrust of an airplane, you can figure out how much power it's developing by multiplying that number by how fast the airplane is going. Thrust is the more fundamental concept, because without thrust, you have no power.
One way I think about it is that power incorporates not only the concept of thrust, but also the velocity that the thrust produces. This is useful in certain contexts, because some aircraft performance parameters depend on that velocity.
For instance, your angle of climb depends on how much excess thrust you have. The velocity of the aircraft along that flight path is irrelevant. If my climb angle is 45 degrees, it remains 45 degrees no matter how fast I'm flying.
However, rate of climb depends on power. If my climb angle is 45 degrees, the faster I fly along that flight path, the greater my rate of climb is.
so whenever you know the thrust of an airplane, you can figure out how much power it's developing by multiplying that number by how fast the airplane is going. Thrust is the more fundamental concept, because without thrust, you have no power.
One way I think about it is that power incorporates not only the concept of thrust, but also the velocity that the thrust produces. This is useful in certain contexts, because some aircraft performance parameters depend on that velocity.
For instance, your angle of climb depends on how much excess thrust you have. The velocity of the aircraft along that flight path is irrelevant. If my climb angle is 45 degrees, it remains 45 degrees no matter how fast I'm flying.
However, rate of climb depends on power. If my climb angle is 45 degrees, the faster I fly along that flight path, the greater my rate of climb is.
Last edited by RENURPP; 28th Jun 2013 at 08:14.
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RENURP
How about this explanation, for the engineers in the audience.
Power is Torque x speed, in a rotational sense as you have in an engine. Thus (Torque NM x RPM)/9550 = kW.
Thrust is the force generated by a fan, prop or exhaust gas expulsion (rockets). So the thrust from a Prop or Fan is the reactive force which is generated by the power ((nmxrpm)/9550)of the rotating fan/prop blades.
So in order for you to have excess thrust, to accelerate S&L or to climb, you need to have excess power. (which I have stated there is no such thing
)
How about this explanation, for the engineers in the audience.
Power is Torque x speed, in a rotational sense as you have in an engine. Thus (Torque NM x RPM)/9550 = kW.
Thrust is the force generated by a fan, prop or exhaust gas expulsion (rockets). So the thrust from a Prop or Fan is the reactive force which is generated by the power ((nmxrpm)/9550)of the rotating fan/prop blades.
So in order for you to have excess thrust, to accelerate S&L or to climb, you need to have excess power. (which I have stated there is no such thing
)
Last edited by Jabawocky; 28th Jun 2013 at 05:47.
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Someone get Stephen Holding to post on this he is the guru of these things and can actually explan it properly.
Also worth noting that thrust is the air moved rearward, power is what the engine delivers to the shaft.
Also worth noting that thrust is the air moved rearward, power is what the engine delivers to the shaft.
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a) Best angle = least ground distance. Use this for short runways/trees at end etc.
b) Best rate of climb = use this for headwinds at low levels.
c) If no obstacles, no low level headwinds, add an additional 10+ knots (for a single) for most efficient a-b on fuel burn. Somewhat nicer on the engine too (more airflow over the jugs).
a) and b) are in the POH. c) is not taught but experienced.
Wait until you do formation flying... then for formation takeoffs you do Vwa(worst aircraft) less a fudge factor so they can remain in formation. First time you do derated takeoffs your brain is going "nooooooooooooooooooooooo".
b) Best rate of climb = use this for headwinds at low levels.
c) If no obstacles, no low level headwinds, add an additional 10+ knots (for a single) for most efficient a-b on fuel burn. Somewhat nicer on the engine too (more airflow over the jugs).
a) and b) are in the POH. c) is not taught but experienced.
Wait until you do formation flying... then for formation takeoffs you do Vwa(worst aircraft) less a fudge factor so they can remain in formation. First time you do derated takeoffs your brain is going "nooooooooooooooooooooooo".
My cheeky response, which is of far more use to the young real world pilots, not those doing an assignment or theory exam.
The one who gets to 5000' with optimal engine parameters, and had greater safety margin in the early part of the take off is the pilot who used best rate plus 10-35 knots (depending on type).
The one who gets to 5000' with optimal engine parameters, and had greater safety margin in the early part of the take off is the pilot who used best rate plus 10-35 knots (depending on type).
Why does the manufacturer bother telling you what best rate is if you aren't supposed to use it?
If you can't react fast enough to get the nose down by the time the airspeed drops to Vs, then I would suggest you need to get an instructor to spring a few more EFATO's at you and start using a pre-take off safety briefing.
eg.
If the engine fails while airborne I will lower the nose to maintain control...
Wait until you do formation flying... then for formation takeoffs you do Vwa(worst aircraft) less a fudge factor so they can remain in formation. First time you do derated takeoffs your brain is going "nooooooooooooooooooooooo".
Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 28th Jun 2013 at 14:12.
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MIHC
You probably have multiple times my flying experience and thus argue most things I post here it seems, but my comment above was based on things taught to me in detail by Chimbu Chuckles and John Deakin, JD who sat at my kitchen table recently over breakfast explained it again, for the umteenth time. I have read and talked to him about these kind of things several times before, but I learn something new every time.
The fact that in practise, what they have taught me works, suggests that in their collective 60'000 hours of flying more things in more places than I care to think about, not doing the same thing 60,000 times, suggests to me I should pay attention.
I am not going to even try writing it all down here, but it has been written by both of them over the years, so all I ask is do a search. Or just simply ignore this post, as I can't do it justice, or not without spending several hours.
I would agree 100%, but you missed the point, or never had it. Besides from Best rate to Vs is a long time, but best glide is what you are searching for, and what is the most effective way to get there.
Did I say engine damage? I said to 5000 with optimal engine parameters. 
Read and use in context would ya.
I think Fokker gets this. The POH is a book written with a description of the entire envelope (hopefully) and LIMITATIONS and scattered with some examples. There are infinite variations along the way inbetween that may be better for daily use or for special use. You the pilot need to use critical thinking to determine what is most suitable for the task.
You probably have multiple times my flying experience and thus argue most things I post here it seems, but my comment above was based on things taught to me in detail by Chimbu Chuckles and John Deakin, JD who sat at my kitchen table recently over breakfast explained it again, for the umteenth time. I have read and talked to him about these kind of things several times before, but I learn something new every time.
The fact that in practise, what they have taught me works, suggests that in their collective 60'000 hours of flying more things in more places than I care to think about, not doing the same thing 60,000 times, suggests to me I should pay attention.
I am not going to even try writing it all down here, but it has been written by both of them over the years, so all I ask is do a search. Or just simply ignore this post, as I can't do it justice, or not without spending several hours.
If you can't react fast enough to get the nose down by the time the airspeed drops to Vs, then I would suggest you need to get an instructor to spring a few more EFATO's at you and start using a pre-take off safety briefing.
After your first 1000' AGL you can reduce attitude to a cruise climb and I can guarantee you won't be damaging your engine.
Read and use in context would ya. I think Fokker gets this. The POH is a book written with a description of the entire envelope (hopefully) and LIMITATIONS and scattered with some examples. There are infinite variations along the way inbetween that may be better for daily use or for special use. You the pilot need to use critical thinking to determine what is most suitable for the task.
Last edited by Jabawocky; 28th Jun 2013 at 22:49. Reason: typo's
'F12' said it simply & to the point, Vx being the one that really matters if you need to clear an obstacle.
Some very in depth answers here, you guys need to get out more:-)
'Jaba' why would yr mates be there for breaky?...yr not changin' are ya buddy?
Wmk2
Some very in depth answers here, you guys need to get out more:-)
'Jaba' why would yr mates be there for breaky?...yr not changin' are ya buddy?
Wmk2
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I see Best Angle as obstacle clearance only, short distance height gain but long term pain, bad L/D ratio. Once clear of obstacle go for Best Rate- efficient climb, best L/D ratio, will get to altitude sooner-just over a longer distance.
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FB
Yer not wrong! Too much is almost enough
They were hungry Wally 
Mrs Jaba's cooking perhaps.
Just staying here for a couple of weeks, seeing the sights, doing some work. All good fun.
Yer not wrong! Too much is almost enough
'Jaba' why would yr mates be there for breaky?...yr not changin' are ya buddy?
Mrs Jaba's cooking perhaps.Just staying here for a couple of weeks, seeing the sights, doing some work. All good fun.
Last edited by Jabawocky; 29th Jun 2013 at 06:08.
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For initial climb speed it depends on what you are trying to achieve.
If there is a terrain/obstacle the best angle is the speed that you want until you are above it and at a safe height. As an example one might wish to climb at Vx until above MSA/LSALT-good airmanship! Best angle is also best to use until you are pointing the aircraft in the direction of outbound track. Vx will get you over a line of weather, whereas Vy might climb you through the cloud tops.
The best RoC , Vy, will get you above conflicting traffic quicker (not all the time, Vx may be more appropriate in some instances) and into tail-winds quicker. If you are climbing into a head wind, you might want to consider a cruise climb speed that is greater than Vy as best rate will just climb you into an increasing head-wind.
What Fokker12 said
If there is a terrain/obstacle the best angle is the speed that you want until you are above it and at a safe height. As an example one might wish to climb at Vx until above MSA/LSALT-good airmanship! Best angle is also best to use until you are pointing the aircraft in the direction of outbound track. Vx will get you over a line of weather, whereas Vy might climb you through the cloud tops.
The best RoC , Vy, will get you above conflicting traffic quicker (not all the time, Vx may be more appropriate in some instances) and into tail-winds quicker. If you are climbing into a head wind, you might want to consider a cruise climb speed that is greater than Vy as best rate will just climb you into an increasing head-wind.
What Fokker12 said
Last edited by Anthill; 29th Jun 2013 at 06:00.