Logging of Instrument Flight Time open to faking
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You guys are full of it 
either you obey the rules AS THEY ARE WRITTEN IN LEGISLATION or you are whingers. Either shut your mouths, comply with the legislation & log instrument time as it is legislated or quit whinging on this board & actually do something about the change process.
Yep, as I thought, whingers............
either you obey the rules AS THEY ARE WRITTEN IN LEGISLATION or you are whingers. Either shut your mouths, comply with the legislation & log instrument time as it is legislated or quit whinging on this board & actually do something about the change process.Yep, as I thought, whingers............
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(c) A pilot who manipulates the flight controls of an aircraft under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points is entitled to be credited with the instrument flight time acquired in this way towards the total instrument flight time experience required for—
(1) a higher grade of pilot licence; or
(2) an instrument rating; or
(3) the recent experience requirement of an instrument rating already held.
The above is copied directly from part 61 in NZ. I'm guessing it must be different in Oz. I have only about 6% of my total time as IF, despite 90% of it being conducted under IFR. My reading of the above is that it is legal to log the whole flight as IF, regardless of autopilot or weather conditions. As long as you do not navigate by looking out the window. Which I do not. It is simply tradition that anything over 10% is considered fraudulent. Am I wrong?
(1) a higher grade of pilot licence; or
(2) an instrument rating; or
(3) the recent experience requirement of an instrument rating already held.
The above is copied directly from part 61 in NZ. I'm guessing it must be different in Oz. I have only about 6% of my total time as IF, despite 90% of it being conducted under IFR. My reading of the above is that it is legal to log the whole flight as IF, regardless of autopilot or weather conditions. As long as you do not navigate by looking out the window. Which I do not. It is simply tradition that anything over 10% is considered fraudulent. Am I wrong?
Stop whinging JR, you've been labeled we all know that but why practice it?
Like most things humans do they are open to interpretation & abuse.
Reg's are fine we have them & we need them but not everyone follows them, the road speed limit for Eg is one big ticket item that is broken by EVERYONE so logging IMC flight time is subjective & inaccurate but the honest ones out there do their best:-)
At the end of the day telling fibs is only fooling yourself.
Wmk2
Like most things humans do they are open to interpretation & abuse.
Reg's are fine we have them & we need them but not everyone follows them, the road speed limit for Eg is one big ticket item that is broken by EVERYONE so logging IMC flight time is subjective & inaccurate but the honest ones out there do their best:-)
At the end of the day telling fibs is only fooling yourself.
Wmk2
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lol Wal 
If you don't comply with the rules there are consequences??
If the rules are ambiguous that's not your fault as a pilot. If it can be justified, do it. As on another thread, strict liability will sort it out?
If you don't comply with the rules there are consequences??
If the rules are ambiguous that's not your fault as a pilot. If it can be justified, do it. As on another thread, strict liability will sort it out?
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Interestingly, in the US an instrument instructor may log IF in IMC while the student flies. And some places (JAR-la-la land, for one) specify IF*R* time, not IF, for various things.
Sprucegoose
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My IF? A quick look shows a bit below average it seems at around 7% of my Total Time.
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Ga-Trojan. Please show me the regs to support that statement. Start with the beginning of the CARs
You would have a hard time going to court and arguing that flight on a moonless night with no horizon is IFR. How can you log IF time when in the exact same conditions you could fly NVFR?
Also then what determines IF? Is the Takeoff IF time too? If so what are the operating minimas that apply there? The problem with saying that flying on a moonless night is IF is you create other problems.
It will all unravel in a big way if you have a incident and then there is some dispute over what flight time you have.
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Hmm, that's an interesting point. I've certainly never had anyone raise that before. My way of thinking is that even with the autopilot on, you are still manipulating the controls, just doing it through the autopilot. Contrary to public opinion, these aircraft don't fly themselves. If this isn't the case then there would literally be no current IFR pilots in my airline. Ie, only logging handflown, IMC time, we would get maybe 30 mins a month max. So therefore most guys simply log two hours per sector flown as PF (long haul). Like I said earlier, I think it is so irrelevant these days to be pointless. Time spent on an IFR plan would give a much better summary of experience in my opinion.
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I believe all the confusion comes from the statements in the regs (as far as I know they all say about the same thing, but there are some slight differences) is that the regs mostly say IF is to be logged when flying by reference to instruments, not external references.
And those who 'take advantage' of this, tend to think that means navigation by instruments.
I believe, however, that most regulatory agencies have made it clear that if you're keeping the shiny side up by instruments alone, then you should be logging IF, but if you're keeping the shiny side up by looking outside, then you shouldn't be logging IF. So cloud layer above and below - IF, cloud layer below, blue sky above - NOT IF. See the ground - NOT IF.
And those who 'take advantage' of this, tend to think that means navigation by instruments.
I believe, however, that most regulatory agencies have made it clear that if you're keeping the shiny side up by instruments alone, then you should be logging IF, but if you're keeping the shiny side up by looking outside, then you shouldn't be logging IF. So cloud layer above and below - IF, cloud layer below, blue sky above - NOT IF. See the ground - NOT IF.
Logging IF at night whilst flying in VMC? lol. Jesus.
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Pilot Log Books
All flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column:
a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;
b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;
c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
edit : Instead of waiting i'll see off the predictable response now. The above appears to have no legislative backing and has been stated prior to be 'at odds' with the legislative reality.
I agree that the regs, the CAO specifically avoids referencing class of flight (IFR/VFR) or even being in IMC. You can conduct 'instrument flight' if you are flying soley via reference to the instruments in situations where no external reference is available.
However, the conduct of 'instrument flight' is not what is up for debate, but rather what you can log. 40.1.0 - 10.9 addresses this and limits it specifically and relevantly to flight in instrument conditions.
Before you jump up with 'ha!', 'flight in instrument conditions' is defined precisely nowhere in the regulations, be it CAR, CAO or even AIP.
Be that there is no specific definition to link it to 'instrument flight' and that there are specific instructions issued by CASA as shown above I think you'd be an optimistic man should you find yourself in front of a magistrate or relevant authority to claim that you had every right to log instrument flight in visual conditions.
I generally take the safe view. Having four figure cmd hours in a Metro flying in the middle of the night, by some arguments here I could log nearly 90% of my flight time as IF.
I find that scenario ridiculous and would expect the same reaction from any potential employer.
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Pilot Log Books
All flight time during which the aircraft was controlled solely by reference to instruments may be recorded in the instrument 'Flight' column:
a) Time above overcast or at night in Visual Meteorological Conditions (VMC) is not counted as instrument flight;
b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;
c) A flight conducted on an Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) flight plan is not to be counted as instrument flight unless flying in IMC;
edit : Instead of waiting i'll see off the predictable response now. The above appears to have no legislative backing and has been stated prior to be 'at odds' with the legislative reality.
I agree that the regs, the CAO specifically avoids referencing class of flight (IFR/VFR) or even being in IMC. You can conduct 'instrument flight' if you are flying soley via reference to the instruments in situations where no external reference is available.
However, the conduct of 'instrument flight' is not what is up for debate, but rather what you can log. 40.1.0 - 10.9 addresses this and limits it specifically and relevantly to flight in instrument conditions.
Before you jump up with 'ha!', 'flight in instrument conditions' is defined precisely nowhere in the regulations, be it CAR, CAO or even AIP.
Be that there is no specific definition to link it to 'instrument flight' and that there are specific instructions issued by CASA as shown above I think you'd be an optimistic man should you find yourself in front of a magistrate or relevant authority to claim that you had every right to log instrument flight in visual conditions.
I generally take the safe view. Having four figure cmd hours in a Metro flying in the middle of the night, by some arguments here I could log nearly 90% of my flight time as IF.
I find that scenario ridiculous and would expect the same reaction from any potential employer.
Last edited by das Uber Soldat; 3rd Jun 2013 at 11:00.
Flying up and down the east coast, even on a moonless night - enough external lighting to not warrant calling it IF time.
Flying out around western Qld, on a moonless night, when you can't see ****, then how could you not justify that as being IF? Maybe someone from CASA needs to come flying with me sometime and tell me exactly what I'm supposed to be looking at outside. But they couldn't possibly do that, because it'd mean working after 5pm.
morno
Flying out around western Qld, on a moonless night, when you can't see ****, then how could you not justify that as being IF? Maybe someone from CASA needs to come flying with me sometime and tell me exactly what I'm supposed to be looking at outside. But they couldn't possibly do that, because it'd mean working after 5pm.
morno
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b) In actual or simulated instrument conditions, only the pilot manipulating the controls or providing input to the auto-pilot may log all flight time as instrument flight;
(c) A pilot who manipulates the flight controls of an aircraft under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions solely by reference to instruments and without external reference points is entitled to be credited with the instrument flight time..
In other words the above examples of regulations would indicate "manipulating the controls" means manual flying and "providing input to the autopilot" is another thing altogether.
Last edited by A37575; 3rd Jun 2013 at 11:25.
Sprucegoose
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Flying out around western Qld, on a moonless night, when you can't see ****, then how could you not justify that as being IF?
Note: Substitute Western Qld with Western NSW.
Last edited by Howard Hughes; 4th Jun 2013 at 11:37.