Aircraft ferry pilots
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Mach E avelli - that mad Yank wasn't Mr Kruger was it?
I ferried a B200 with him in 2010 LA - Port Moresby. He carried a limp from a Islander ditching, and that was his 3rd or 4th time going for a swim
I ferried a B200 with him in 2010 LA - Port Moresby. He carried a limp from a Islander ditching, and that was his 3rd or 4th time going for a swim
Nope. Initials EC.
Pretty sure there was a new PAC750 several years ago where the pilot broke his back when it ditched.
He had initiated a fuel transfer and dropped off to sleep to wake to find he'd pumped fuel overboard and there wasn't enough remaining to get to the US mainland.
Yes, I did a few of those when I was just starting out as a new low houred CPL holder. The school where I did my training leased one of their aircraft to a country flying school so they needed someone to ferry it there. I also did a number of ferry flights from small country strips back to the big smoke as the flight school used country LAMES with their own private strip on their property to do the 100 hourly. It was a good experience for a newbie CPL holder and if you're lucky, you might even get a free train ticket to the countryside when picking up the aircraft. As captain XXX said, all you need to do is ask
WRT PPL - they cannot do it since any flying where PPL does not pay for is not allowed (apart from glider towing, but then with some reservations).
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Erm... If we are talking about NZ, then any reward is considered to be illegal for PPL, including free flight time. At least this is the interpretation I was given on a number of occasions.
In fact some 'free' flying is punishment. If they are so strict in NZ, what do they say about someone who uses an aircraft for business who only has a PPL? Such as, say, dealing in livestock or working as a country vet.
To answer the question why anyone would go ferry flying if it is such a tough gig, I think in most cases the motivation starts out being to gain a bit of real-world experience and ends up being for the money. There was a time when the turboprops at least paid well. The smaller pistons not so good, but that is where most guys started to gain the real-world experience. By the time I got to ferrying I had a fair share of that already so by-passed that part of the apprenticeship - thankfully!
The only piston-engine aircraft I ever ferried any real distances were DC3s, and they were a delight. So I guess I was pretty fortunate.
My Yank mate (not the one who keeps ditching; the multi-linguist) is in his 70's and still works quite hard as a ferry pilot. He still has the stamina to do it, which would be impressive at any age. But he is kinda nuts, too, as he still loves any form of flying, even that.
To answer the question why anyone would go ferry flying if it is such a tough gig, I think in most cases the motivation starts out being to gain a bit of real-world experience and ends up being for the money. There was a time when the turboprops at least paid well. The smaller pistons not so good, but that is where most guys started to gain the real-world experience. By the time I got to ferrying I had a fair share of that already so by-passed that part of the apprenticeship - thankfully!
The only piston-engine aircraft I ever ferried any real distances were DC3s, and they were a delight. So I guess I was pretty fortunate.
My Yank mate (not the one who keeps ditching; the multi-linguist) is in his 70's and still works quite hard as a ferry pilot. He still has the stamina to do it, which would be impressive at any age. But he is kinda nuts, too, as he still loves any form of flying, even that.
Erm... If we are talking about NZ, then any reward is considered to be illegal for PPL, including free flight time. At least this is the interpretation I was given on a number of occasions.
The minute the PPL receives any money for services rendered then that's a different story but there are some grey areas there as well.
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27/09 Not correct, A PPL cannot ferry unless it is their own aircraft.. The FAA has determined that Flight Time is Compensation on many accounts. I have a copy if the interpretation some place here I will dig it up..
1992, The FAA has historically taken the position that building-up flight time is a form of receiving compensation when the pilot does not have to pay the cost, or pays a reduced cost, of operation.
1990, With regard to this second prong of Section 61.118, the agency has repeatedly taken the position that building up flight time is considered compensatory in nature when the pilot does not have to pay the costs of operating the aircraft and would, therefore, be deemed a form of "compensation" to the private pilot under Section 61.118
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf
and
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf
1992, The FAA has historically taken the position that building-up flight time is a form of receiving compensation when the pilot does not have to pay the cost, or pays a reduced cost, of operation.
1990, With regard to this second prong of Section 61.118, the agency has repeatedly taken the position that building up flight time is considered compensatory in nature when the pilot does not have to pay the costs of operating the aircraft and would, therefore, be deemed a form of "compensation" to the private pilot under Section 61.118
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf
and
http://www.faa.gov/about/office_org/...rpretation.pdf
Last edited by NW_Pilot; 30th May 2013 at 17:17.
That FAA position is an interesting interpretation. The argument appears to hang on whether or not there was some benefit to be had by the PPL.
Consider a situation where the private pilot can show no advantage has been gained from the flight. For example: a 25,000 hour former ATPL who has reverted to a PPL medical standard. Old mate asks him to ferry his new Wundertwin from the factory because he does not want some gorilla from the local ferry company messing with his turbines or turbochargers.
Now, they are good mates, so the ATPL/now PPL does the job for costs-only. i.e. no profit, no benefit and it could hardly be said that with 25,000 hours he is doing it to build experience, or for the thrill of crossing the Pacific one more time.
Another (unlikely) scenario. A PPL is a member of the Ah's Bin Saved Church. The church buys a new BJ so that they can travel around preaching the Good Word according to Guru Bin Saved (quite possible in today's world). Our PPL just happens to be rated on the BJ (it IS possible!). Being one of the Saved herself, she volunteers her time to fly it (the fact that she has multiple orgasms every time she pushes the thrust levers up is incidental and not seen as a benefit).
Though I am no lawyer, here in Oz I believe that both of the above situations would be legal.
Consider a situation where the private pilot can show no advantage has been gained from the flight. For example: a 25,000 hour former ATPL who has reverted to a PPL medical standard. Old mate asks him to ferry his new Wundertwin from the factory because he does not want some gorilla from the local ferry company messing with his turbines or turbochargers.
Now, they are good mates, so the ATPL/now PPL does the job for costs-only. i.e. no profit, no benefit and it could hardly be said that with 25,000 hours he is doing it to build experience, or for the thrill of crossing the Pacific one more time.
Another (unlikely) scenario. A PPL is a member of the Ah's Bin Saved Church. The church buys a new BJ so that they can travel around preaching the Good Word according to Guru Bin Saved (quite possible in today's world). Our PPL just happens to be rated on the BJ (it IS possible!). Being one of the Saved herself, she volunteers her time to fly it (the fact that she has multiple orgasms every time she pushes the thrust levers up is incidental and not seen as a benefit).
Though I am no lawyer, here in Oz I believe that both of the above situations would be legal.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 31st May 2013 at 02:00.
NW Pilot
If you bothered to read what I wrote you will notice I was talking about New Zealand, last time I looked the FAA rules didn't apply in New Zealand. Your post was irrelevant to the discussion.
If you bothered to read what I wrote you will notice I was talking about New Zealand, last time I looked the FAA rules didn't apply in New Zealand. Your post was irrelevant to the discussion.
Last edited by 27/09; 31st May 2013 at 19:27.
27/09. I, for one found NW Pilot's input enlightening. Considering that the original part of this thread pertained to ferry flying and considering that -whether we like to admit it or not - the USA is still the hub of the general aviation universe; hence probably over 50% of small to medium aircraft ferry flights originate there, it is useful to know the FAA's position.
Most ferry flights that do originate in the USA - and many going the other way - are done on private flight plans, in N- registered aircraft. The reason for staying with the N rego is that the FAA are better to deal with for overweight ferry permits and temprorary tank installations. Try that on with our CASA....good luck!
I have been ramp checked by the FAA when ferrying on at least three occasions; once in distant Majuro. Good to know that, unless I am the registered owner, I'd better have a current class one medical that enables me to use either my FAA CPL or validated foreign ATPL.
On the other hand, if I am ferrying on the VH register, and doing the job for a mate with no money directly changing hands, I will do so on a PPL if so inclined.
Most ferry flights that do originate in the USA - and many going the other way - are done on private flight plans, in N- registered aircraft. The reason for staying with the N rego is that the FAA are better to deal with for overweight ferry permits and temprorary tank installations. Try that on with our CASA....good luck!
I have been ramp checked by the FAA when ferrying on at least three occasions; once in distant Majuro. Good to know that, unless I am the registered owner, I'd better have a current class one medical that enables me to use either my FAA CPL or validated foreign ATPL.
On the other hand, if I am ferrying on the VH register, and doing the job for a mate with no money directly changing hands, I will do so on a PPL if so inclined.
Mach E Avelli
Might I also suggest that for someone in your position it would be very hard to prove ( I would say impossible) that there was any reward being gained by you if you were not being paid for the job. You have no need of the hours. Therefore I can see no reason why you couldn't do it on an PPL in this case even under the FAA's jurisdiction.
Might I also suggest there are the rules then there's the various interpretations of those rules. The FAA, CASA or CAA inspector may have their own interpretation but this isn't necessarily correct as I have discovered.
P.S. Perhaps I was a bit sharp with NW Pilot. The tone of his post bugged me by implying the FAA rules were universal.
Might I also suggest that for someone in your position it would be very hard to prove ( I would say impossible) that there was any reward being gained by you if you were not being paid for the job. You have no need of the hours. Therefore I can see no reason why you couldn't do it on an PPL in this case even under the FAA's jurisdiction.
Might I also suggest there are the rules then there's the various interpretations of those rules. The FAA, CASA or CAA inspector may have their own interpretation but this isn't necessarily correct as I have discovered.
P.S. Perhaps I was a bit sharp with NW Pilot. The tone of his post bugged me by implying the FAA rules were universal.
Last edited by 27/09; 2nd Jun 2013 at 10:49.
I have also discovered that CASA inspectors can put their own spin on the rules. Even to the point of putting patently wrong instructions in writing. But they roll over quickly enough when challenged. Alternatively, with CASA being as dysfunctional as it is, sometimes simply ignoring an individual inspector's directive and playing 'catch me if you can' lightens up the drab work day.
However, the FAA is one organisation I would not want to challenge. As clear as most of their rules are, they can be quite heavy-handed at times, as my buddy in the ferry business once discovered at great inconvenience and expense. It is a long story, but worth relating even at the risk of thread drift.
At the time the BAC for driving in Nevada was .08 while in next-door California it was .05. He was driving somewhere on the border and had crossed the line by a mile or so when the California Highway Patrol pulled him over and put the bag on him. He blew somewhere between .05 and .08. Being the sort of guy he is, he gave the cop a spray about the USA being all one country, so why didn't those pussies in California bring back the death penalty for rapists etc etc. and get in line with public sentiment etc etc. So, they chuck him in the slammer to cool off over the weekend. Come Monday, he gets charged with offensive language to a police officer, or some such, but the arresting cop has not filed the paperwork for the DUI because he was so rattled about the sledging he had received. Now, it's too late, as the bird has flown the coop back to Nevada.
Some considerable time later he gets a summons from the FAA who want to jail him for falsifying a statement on one of their forms. Seems he had re-applied for a Check Airman Certificate, and in the box asking if he had been charged or convicted of DUI, he ticked 'No'. Which was the truth - he had not been formally charged, and certainly not convicted. But it took two years and a lot of his own money funding lawyers to stay out of jail and to eventually get his Check Approval reinstated. No chance of redress for lost income, either.
Another yarn - not as serious as the above - which illustrates the far-reaching tentacles of the FAA, and by extension the USA Government in general. I was ferrying an aircraft and stopped in Albuquerque for fuel. Awaiting us on the ramp was the Sheriff with an arrest warrant. Apparently, under its previous ownership the aircraft had been in Canada for some retro-fitting and upon return to the USA the Customs Duties on the value of the new gear had not been declared or paid. The aircraft then went into storage for a couple of years, so the 'system' had lost trace of it. When I filed a flight plan the computers latched on to it and tracked it to the first point of landing. The aircraft was impounded where it stood until the buyer's and seller's lawyers got it sorted with the Feds.
So, no, don't mess with the FAA.
However, the FAA is one organisation I would not want to challenge. As clear as most of their rules are, they can be quite heavy-handed at times, as my buddy in the ferry business once discovered at great inconvenience and expense. It is a long story, but worth relating even at the risk of thread drift.
At the time the BAC for driving in Nevada was .08 while in next-door California it was .05. He was driving somewhere on the border and had crossed the line by a mile or so when the California Highway Patrol pulled him over and put the bag on him. He blew somewhere between .05 and .08. Being the sort of guy he is, he gave the cop a spray about the USA being all one country, so why didn't those pussies in California bring back the death penalty for rapists etc etc. and get in line with public sentiment etc etc. So, they chuck him in the slammer to cool off over the weekend. Come Monday, he gets charged with offensive language to a police officer, or some such, but the arresting cop has not filed the paperwork for the DUI because he was so rattled about the sledging he had received. Now, it's too late, as the bird has flown the coop back to Nevada.
Some considerable time later he gets a summons from the FAA who want to jail him for falsifying a statement on one of their forms. Seems he had re-applied for a Check Airman Certificate, and in the box asking if he had been charged or convicted of DUI, he ticked 'No'. Which was the truth - he had not been formally charged, and certainly not convicted. But it took two years and a lot of his own money funding lawyers to stay out of jail and to eventually get his Check Approval reinstated. No chance of redress for lost income, either.
Another yarn - not as serious as the above - which illustrates the far-reaching tentacles of the FAA, and by extension the USA Government in general. I was ferrying an aircraft and stopped in Albuquerque for fuel. Awaiting us on the ramp was the Sheriff with an arrest warrant. Apparently, under its previous ownership the aircraft had been in Canada for some retro-fitting and upon return to the USA the Customs Duties on the value of the new gear had not been declared or paid. The aircraft then went into storage for a couple of years, so the 'system' had lost trace of it. When I filed a flight plan the computers latched on to it and tracked it to the first point of landing. The aircraft was impounded where it stood until the buyer's and seller's lawyers got it sorted with the Feds.
So, no, don't mess with the FAA.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 3rd Jun 2013 at 01:08.
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Mach E Avelli-------- EC is a bloody good man. Has done a good number of aircraft movements for me. Doesn't mind a beer, married to a Kiwi and lives in Mena AK, which happens to be a dry county 
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Mach E Avelli,
Sorry, Don't look at PPRUNE that much.
I lost the right engine in a dog of a PA-31 exactly half way from PHNL to KOAK and didn't quiet make it back, I got to within 160nm which wasn't a bad effort. Ended up spending several hours in a raft (after the Chieftain had its last shot and sank the first raft, cut in half after sliding down a wave and impaling the raft on the fin).
Got found by an Aloha B737, that cost a case of scotch and picked up by a coast guard Helo after about 6 hours and was then taught to surf by the skipper.
If you did it often enough it was going to happen, I remember spending 6 hours on one engine in a PA-60 which was a mind focusing event.
Also a 19.7 leg in a BE-33 with no autopilot and no back on the seat to get the tanks a bit further forward.
Ahh the days, as I said I remember most of it fondly!
Cheers,
JB
Sorry, Don't look at PPRUNE that much.
I lost the right engine in a dog of a PA-31 exactly half way from PHNL to KOAK and didn't quiet make it back, I got to within 160nm which wasn't a bad effort. Ended up spending several hours in a raft (after the Chieftain had its last shot and sank the first raft, cut in half after sliding down a wave and impaling the raft on the fin).
Got found by an Aloha B737, that cost a case of scotch and picked up by a coast guard Helo after about 6 hours and was then taught to surf by the skipper.
If you did it often enough it was going to happen, I remember spending 6 hours on one engine in a PA-60 which was a mind focusing event.
Also a 19.7 leg in a BE-33 with no autopilot and no back on the seat to get the tanks a bit further forward.
Ahh the days, as I said I remember most of it fondly!
Cheers,
JB
Last edited by jib; 6th Jun 2013 at 01:28.
My multi-lingual mate had an interesting close shave in a F27. While still overweight, it crapped an engine, which in itself is unusual enough for a R.R. Dart. Anyway, it was descending and he had no idea whether it would level off before it hit the drink.
There was no fuel dump system. So, he depressurized, opened the rear door and took to the aluminium ferry tanks with the crash axe, allowing fuel to run down the floor and out the door.
After that one, he designed a primitive but effective dump system.
There was no fuel dump system. So, he depressurized, opened the rear door and took to the aluminium ferry tanks with the crash axe, allowing fuel to run down the floor and out the door.
After that one, he designed a primitive but effective dump system.