ATSB report on Bankstown near miss
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ATSB report on Bankstown near miss
Part of the end of month rush of the reports by the ATSB is this report Its a near miss between a Alpha Aviation R2160 and Diamond DA40.
The two aircraft got pretty close. The report puts a lot of emphasis on reports from an instructor in one aircraft and makes no mention of the occupants of the other. It notes that the mode C was not tuned on in one of the aircraft. It also notes that one of the aircraft didn't make a recommended position call.
The conclusion makes a number of comments about the importance of blind spots and high wing vs low wing, but makes no mention of radio calls or the importance of using mode C.
Initially the aircraft code R2160 didn't register and I assumed that this was a case of low wing aircraft descending onto high wing aircraft. In these circumstances I hope that ATC might give a warning (despite not being required to) and assumed that because one aircraft did not have mode C turned on that was probably because it was a private pilot not having full discipline.
However, after a google search, I am reminded that a R2160 is a low wig Robin. So we actually have 2 low wing aircraft. Both Bankstown based. Both owned by training organisations and both 2 pilot with instructors on board.
So - why have any discussion about high wing vs low wing and the importance for wing dipping in turns at all? And why would there not be any discussion that engaging mode C would have given the ATC system a chance to warn of the situation? And why would there be no discussion about having full discipline with inbound and positioning calls in a high traffic / high risk area like the visual approach points to Bankstown.
Without wanting to get into any blame. It would seem to me that a near mid air between 2 low wing aircraft each with big "glass" areas and each 2 pilot with instructors is exactly the sort of incident that should be examined properly. This is the exception that tests the system. Is there any valid reason why one of these training aircraft did not select mode C? Is there a valid reason why the position call was not made. Would either of these things averted the near miss?
Please someone else read the report and tell me if I am missing something, or are they getting the work experience kid to write reports now?
The two aircraft got pretty close. The report puts a lot of emphasis on reports from an instructor in one aircraft and makes no mention of the occupants of the other. It notes that the mode C was not tuned on in one of the aircraft. It also notes that one of the aircraft didn't make a recommended position call.
The conclusion makes a number of comments about the importance of blind spots and high wing vs low wing, but makes no mention of radio calls or the importance of using mode C.
Initially the aircraft code R2160 didn't register and I assumed that this was a case of low wing aircraft descending onto high wing aircraft. In these circumstances I hope that ATC might give a warning (despite not being required to) and assumed that because one aircraft did not have mode C turned on that was probably because it was a private pilot not having full discipline.
However, after a google search, I am reminded that a R2160 is a low wig Robin. So we actually have 2 low wing aircraft. Both Bankstown based. Both owned by training organisations and both 2 pilot with instructors on board.
So - why have any discussion about high wing vs low wing and the importance for wing dipping in turns at all? And why would there not be any discussion that engaging mode C would have given the ATC system a chance to warn of the situation? And why would there be no discussion about having full discipline with inbound and positioning calls in a high traffic / high risk area like the visual approach points to Bankstown.
Without wanting to get into any blame. It would seem to me that a near mid air between 2 low wing aircraft each with big "glass" areas and each 2 pilot with instructors is exactly the sort of incident that should be examined properly. This is the exception that tests the system. Is there any valid reason why one of these training aircraft did not select mode C? Is there a valid reason why the position call was not made. Would either of these things averted the near miss?
Please someone else read the report and tell me if I am missing something, or are they getting the work experience kid to write reports now?
You suggest proper inbound reporting could prevent mid-airs around BK? The amount of near misses i had just prior to PSP or 2RN were the reason i quit working in bk and refuse to return.
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the bit where they spoke of low and high wings was a general statement, they were simply trying to say, after evaluating the event, that different aircraft have blind spots in different places, and that pilots should keep as good a lookout as possible and try and clear hard to see areas before turning or climbing/descending.
From reading that it looks like they just did not see eachother. Perhaps the other party that did not make a radio call were just about to. It seems they were only aware of eachother after ATC spoke to them and the first aircraft had already recieved instructions and had turned inbound.
From reading that it looks like they just did not see eachother. Perhaps the other party that did not make a radio call were just about to. It seems they were only aware of eachother after ATC spoke to them and the first aircraft had already recieved instructions and had turned inbound.
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Geez I have a near miss every time I go in there... Scares the absolute bgeebas outa me.Approach asks me wether I can see an aircraft in my 12 oclock 2 miles,Haven't seen it yet.
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I regularly operate into all of the old GAAP fields except Jandakot and one thing which frustrates me which happens at all of them is people who report at the inbound point but still have a mile or two to run to get to them. Makes locating traffic very difficult.
Given the actual amout of traffic at YSBK it would be difficult to be in the circuit with another aircraft these days
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I have had occasion on a training flight to make the inbound call at Prospect, only to have another aircraft make the same inbound call at the same height about 5 seconds later. I had no idea where they actually were and the instructor was struggling to find them as well, all we could do was jam open the throttle and keep an eye out. As best we could tell they were behind us as we were slotted in first to the approach.
Is there any good system that could be employed to improve this situation? You have two aircraft on similar headings, same height going for the same objective, both waiting for clear air to make a call to YSBK tower (and hence not announcing each others presence) . Would it be better to have a "heading inbound" call in the boundary airspace frequency before setting up to call in to the tower?
Is there any good system that could be employed to improve this situation? You have two aircraft on similar headings, same height going for the same objective, both waiting for clear air to make a call to YSBK tower (and hence not announcing each others presence) . Would it be better to have a "heading inbound" call in the boundary airspace frequency before setting up to call in to the tower?
There are usually aircraft in the circuit on 29L or 11R. Great care is needed watching out for circuit traffic when on base for a 29R arrival. There was a mid-air a few years ago.
Are you for real? Are we talking about the same place? I spend a lot of time at this big open space at Condell Park, referred to by the airport company as "Bankstown Airport".
There are, by simple observation, no aircraft in the circuit for quite long periods. Even the airport company has been forced to publicly admit that movements (a takeoff or a landing) are way down, and have decreased every year for years, and in my opinion, even the published movement rates are inflated.
What a contrast to the days when, by a large margin, YSBK (then ASBK - for no good reason other than cultural cringe Australia was moved from Axxx to Yxxx)
had the highest movement rates in the Southern Hemisphere --- around 400,0000 pa, now the "official numbers" are something like 170,000, and the was no night freight movements in the '60's.
For you blokes who worry about near misses at YSBK, god forbid you ever have to go anywhere near an actual busy airport (say Jandakot) you would have an instant total mental collapse and nervous breakdown.
In the '60s/70's, 15 aircraft in the circuit was not grounds for comment, on the old 05/23, up to five aircraft on final was not regarded as anything other than normal.
Tootle pip!!
Last edited by LeadSled; 25th Apr 2013 at 15:04.
Are you for real? Are we talking about the same place? I spend a lot of time at this big open space at Condell Park, referred to by the airport company as "Bankstown Airport".
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Randomisation, 1 incident in a decade hardly points to asystemic problem.
Even the "greenie"anti aircraft noise groups have laid down their placards.
Bankstown these days is simply not a busy destination.
Even the "greenie"anti aircraft noise groups have laid down their placards.
Bankstown these days is simply not a busy destination.
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Randomisation, 1 incident in a decade doesn't point to a systemic problem.
Bankstown is so quiet even the "Greenie" anti Aircraft noise groups have laiddown thier placards.
Bankstown is so quiet even the "Greenie" anti Aircraft noise groups have laiddown thier placards.
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I have had occasion on a training flight to make the inbound call at Prospect, only to have another aircraft make the same inbound call at the same height about 5 seconds later. I had no idea where they actually were and the instructor was struggling to find them as well, all we could do was jam open the throttle and keep an eye out. As best we could tell they were behind us as we were slotted in first to the approach.
GMH in particular I often have someone else inbound at the same time. I usually make an "approaching" call when I am a mile out or so, I also have a GOOD look around before I get there because often someone may be coming in off my wing at the same speed and same height.
The confusion for me comes when I cannot see anybody (they are behind me) and they put a call in first, when I am actually the one just arriving overhead GMH. Or, even more annoyingly, they may have to make a turn at GMH to point themselves at the aerodrome, and in their wisdom they cut the corner and then make a call when they actually put themselves a mile to the east or west, and here's me right above GMH crapping myself having a look around for some undercarriage about to pierce my cabin roof.
People are meant to be at 1500' at this point. I have seen planes below me and above, some making calls after they have passed GMH, some like I said when they are behind me or not actually overhead.
I guess people just need to keep a good lookout, watch their height and make sure they make the right call at the right time so people know where they are. I rarely hear other people make approaching calls but it does help, especially if the frequency is busy. Better early than late
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I frequently fly abeam the Carrum entry point to Moorabbin. My experience is that ML radar does an excellent job of advisory calls. I can imagine that not having mode C selected makes this a lot harder for the controller and possibly does not trigger some automated alerts. I don't see why a flying training organisation based in Bankstown should not have perfect discipline selecting mode C. My point is that the report shreds its credibility by not covering this issue.
Ditto inbound calls. I agree with k-man that there is a wide range of discipline about altitudes & locations of these calls - but at least its a trigger to start looking. Once again I don't see why a professional flying training organisation based in Bankstown should not have perfect discipline with inbund calls and I would have thought it would rate a paragraph in any creditable report.
Last time I few into Banskstown (IFR) I was cleared to land on a straight in approach RWY 11 some miles out. I asked with runway (L-C-R), they replied whichever one I wanted. I was the only moving aircraft I saw. It was that quiet.
Ditto inbound calls. I agree with k-man that there is a wide range of discipline about altitudes & locations of these calls - but at least its a trigger to start looking. Once again I don't see why a professional flying training organisation based in Bankstown should not have perfect discipline with inbund calls and I would have thought it would rate a paragraph in any creditable report.
Last time I few into Banskstown (IFR) I was cleared to land on a straight in approach RWY 11 some miles out. I asked with runway (L-C-R), they replied whichever one I wanted. I was the only moving aircraft I saw. It was that quiet.
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That was probably me k-man. I'm guessing GMH, and for that matter academy were easy to spot 25 years ago before they were surrounded by housing & other factories. They are ridiculous reporting points that an itinerant pilot has no hope of spotting. 2RN is not much better, buried in suburbia.
Gotta be a better way of doing it?
Gotta be a better way of doing it?
Yeah Leadie,
But - In 'Those' days, we all landed just to the right of the preceeding aircraft on the grass at BK....and yes. the first aircraft DID land to the LEFT, and stop, and turn half way around so you knew he knew YOU was 'on final' right up his ....but, just to his right.
AIRMANSHIP...wot a wunnerful thing it were....
Years later, instructing at JT, a 'cut lunch' circuit - 1 RWY only then - seemed to be the order of the day, until a 'polite' phone call or two was 'in order'... and circuits returned to 'normal size' - for a while.
JR,
The 2RN (ABC) tower 'WAS' out in the open when it was designated. A pity that suburbia caught up with it and buried it within, but the 'Airspace rules' re reporting points did not catch up...Perhaps they should paint it bright yellow or sumphin', and put a strobe on it.
Cheers Guys
But - In 'Those' days, we all landed just to the right of the preceeding aircraft on the grass at BK....and yes. the first aircraft DID land to the LEFT, and stop, and turn half way around so you knew he knew YOU was 'on final' right up his ....but, just to his right.
AIRMANSHIP...wot a wunnerful thing it were....
Years later, instructing at JT, a 'cut lunch' circuit - 1 RWY only then - seemed to be the order of the day, until a 'polite' phone call or two was 'in order'... and circuits returned to 'normal size' - for a while.
JR,
The 2RN (ABC) tower 'WAS' out in the open when it was designated. A pity that suburbia caught up with it and buried it within, but the 'Airspace rules' re reporting points did not catch up...Perhaps they should paint it bright yellow or sumphin', and put a strobe on it.
Cheers Guys
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 27th Apr 2013 at 08:14.
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Griffo, Target inbound to Archerfield has a friggin big target painted on the roof.
2RN the last time I went there is buried if you're at the 'right' height.
I will bet that any pilot trying to find Hesse places will have their heads buried in the cockpit making sure they track over it via GPS.
2RN the last time I went there is buried if you're at the 'right' height.
I will bet that any pilot trying to find Hesse places will have their heads buried in the cockpit making sure they track over it via GPS.