C210 crash in Roma
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Somatogravic illusion
I'm with AOTW on this. I had a personal experience coming out of Melbourne one dark and stormy night in the jump seat of a Falcon 900. We had just enough fuel to get back to Canberra, so the aircraft had excellent acceleration potential. When the horizon lighting disappeared below the coaming, and as the aircraft was cleaned up and accelerated, I was convinced (by feel) that we were at least 45 deg nose up. A quick cross-reference to the flight instruments revealed we were at a quite normal pitch attitude (around 20 deg nose up or thereabouts - exact memory fails me). It was quite un-nerving.
A couple of points I took away from that one: a) the flying crew were probably quite used to the acceleration while I certainly was not; b) good training reinforces a good instrument scan which mitigates the problem (couples with point a); and c) initial and every AVMED refresher I did since 1977 reinforces the medical concept and the inherent dangers. As far as I know, there is no simulator ever built which can replicate the effect, so it is one of those things for which it is impossible to train for or experience under safe conditions. The only real defences are awareness of the issue and adherence to sound instrument flying techniques.
I'm not going to trawl through the ATSB stats (I haven't got the time as I'm retired now!) to detail each unexplained occurrence and see if the somatogravic illusion fits, but I remember the details of a few over the years (eg KingAIr at Wondai, C310 at Bathurst Island). When you step back and look, there are some common threads in: older (age (think hysteresis, lag etc) and style) flight instruments, possibly low experience level, possible lack of night/instrument currency, low or non-existent ambient lighting, lack of horizon etc. Couple that with aircraft performance parameters at the time (small payload, light fuel = more get up and go) and it starts to add up.
I'm not out to offend anyone, particularly those close to the accidents mentioned or any similar but, while I'm not a trained aircraft accident investigator, I have been in the civil and military sides of aviation since 1971 and I've always tried to learn as much as possible from accident and incident reports in order to keep myself and others breathing for as long as possible. I know I shouldn't jump to conclusions without waiting for the facts, but I have to admit that when I see a wreckage trail like the one at Roma coupled with dark ambient conditions, light AUW, and a relatively high performance aircraft, somatogravic illusion is the first phase that rears its ugly head.
D_F
A couple of points I took away from that one: a) the flying crew were probably quite used to the acceleration while I certainly was not; b) good training reinforces a good instrument scan which mitigates the problem (couples with point a); and c) initial and every AVMED refresher I did since 1977 reinforces the medical concept and the inherent dangers. As far as I know, there is no simulator ever built which can replicate the effect, so it is one of those things for which it is impossible to train for or experience under safe conditions. The only real defences are awareness of the issue and adherence to sound instrument flying techniques.
I'm not going to trawl through the ATSB stats (I haven't got the time as I'm retired now!) to detail each unexplained occurrence and see if the somatogravic illusion fits, but I remember the details of a few over the years (eg KingAIr at Wondai, C310 at Bathurst Island). When you step back and look, there are some common threads in: older (age (think hysteresis, lag etc) and style) flight instruments, possibly low experience level, possible lack of night/instrument currency, low or non-existent ambient lighting, lack of horizon etc. Couple that with aircraft performance parameters at the time (small payload, light fuel = more get up and go) and it starts to add up.
I'm not out to offend anyone, particularly those close to the accidents mentioned or any similar but, while I'm not a trained aircraft accident investigator, I have been in the civil and military sides of aviation since 1971 and I've always tried to learn as much as possible from accident and incident reports in order to keep myself and others breathing for as long as possible. I know I shouldn't jump to conclusions without waiting for the facts, but I have to admit that when I see a wreckage trail like the one at Roma coupled with dark ambient conditions, light AUW, and a relatively high performance aircraft, somatogravic illusion is the first phase that rears its ugly head.
D_F
Many years ago, about 1988-89 - maybe start of 1989, there was a Cessna 210 that flew into the ground with 2 or 3 POB after Take-Off, near Hamilton or Horsham in Victoria. I can't quite remember the details but I knew a friends father died in the crash.
They say they took off and lost reference to the ground in a turn, and ended up doing a rate 1 turn into the ground out of a country airstrip, thinking they were climbing. Witness at farmhouse saw it. Details are sketchy, but sounds similar to this accident that is mentioned.... KP
They say they took off and lost reference to the ground in a turn, and ended up doing a rate 1 turn into the ground out of a country airstrip, thinking they were climbing. Witness at farmhouse saw it. Details are sketchy, but sounds similar to this accident that is mentioned.... KP
Illusions are very powerful things.
I recently experienced the inverse of this, having a coupla fun hours playing around in the QF 737 sim in Melbourne courtesy of their FF program.
As we accelerated down the runway, I was forcefully pushed back into the seat for the whole time as you would expect from the acceleration. But how can this be? The simulator only has limited forward motion (acceleration)?
Answer is, the sim pitches upwards, forcing us back into the seat. But our visual cues from the screens show we were straight and level, so we interpreted that feeling as acceleration.
But it was a very powerful thing ...
I recently experienced the inverse of this, having a coupla fun hours playing around in the QF 737 sim in Melbourne courtesy of their FF program.
As we accelerated down the runway, I was forcefully pushed back into the seat for the whole time as you would expect from the acceleration. But how can this be? The simulator only has limited forward motion (acceleration)?
Answer is, the sim pitches upwards, forcing us back into the seat. But our visual cues from the screens show we were straight and level, so we interpreted that feeling as acceleration.
But it was a very powerful thing ...
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The report on the Afriqiyah Airbus 330 crash has put it down to somatogravic illusion (probably both pilots). A go-around in daylight (just) over landscape covered in ground mist.
A C 210 just after first light, 2 up, possible cause......yes. Was it the likely cause........thats another thing.
Triton, absolutely. I used to muck around in a fixed base sim and the illusion of turning could cause people standing between the pilots seats to grab hold of them even though we were not moving a centimetre.
A C 210 just after first light, 2 up, possible cause......yes. Was it the likely cause........thats another thing.
Triton, absolutely. I used to muck around in a fixed base sim and the illusion of turning could cause people standing between the pilots seats to grab hold of them even though we were not moving a centimetre.
Last edited by PLovett; 26th Mar 2013 at 06:50. Reason: Afterthought
That's right 'Triton' the Sim puters use yr own body weight to fool you, trick you, same as the bloody Sim instructors, they trick you too....buggers
Just goes to show that our eyes are very important.
The Wright Bros have a lot of explaining to do I reckon !
Wmk2
Just goes to show that our eyes are very important.
The Wright Bros have a lot of explaining to do I reckon !
Wmk2
You should watch the sim from the outside and see just how far it tips back and forward to give you the acceleration sensation.
Unless the pilot survives, not sure how you can get hard proof. The nature of these accidents are such that is highly unlikely. Its usually the hypothesis when all other factors have been eliminated such as engine failure or instrument failure.
In other words it is a catch-all fall-back reason for an accident but without a shred of hard proof.
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It would be interesting to know if this was the first flight of the day or a hop as that would give us info regarding pilot experience under NVFR. On the face of it, it would seem that best attempts were made to fly in luminous conditions.
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I havent read any NZ report on that accident but a NZ frund mentioned that there were prop marks from one side, on the runway and airfield before the bay where it speared in.
Acceleration probs?.... or just did it just get away from her on the take-off?
Acceleration probs?.... or just did it just get away from her on the take-off?
The co-pilot’s ADI of the Convair CV-580 in question had a known intermittent defect, but had been retained in service. The aircraft’s MEL however did not permit this flight to be undertaken with an unserviceable ADI. The aircraft nevertheless departed Palmerston North and arrived at Auckland at about 20:30. It was unloaded and reloaded with 11 pallets of cargo.
On the next leg, to Christchurch, the handling pilot was to be the other co-pilot. Although she had completed her type rating on the Convair 580 this was her first line flight as a crew member. The flight was cleared to taxi to runway 23 for departure. Takeoff was commenced at 21:59. The aircraft climbed to a height of approx. 400 feet when it pitched down.
It entered a gradual descent until it contacted the ground 387 m beyond the end of runway 23 and 91 m left of the extended centreline. The aicraft then crashed and broke up in the tidal waters of Manukau Harbour.
PROBABLE CAUSE: "The probable cause of this accident was the training captain’s failure to monitor the aircraft’s climb flightpath during the critical stage of the climb after take-off."
Last edited by Tee Emm; 26th Mar 2013 at 08:14.
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XXX, I think waiting another 15-20mins would have been a better attempt.
As an ex night/IFR instructor I saw lots of illusions and responses to them,
It cannot be emphasised enough the need to rotate and go onto instruments with a good cross-check.
I helped install the lights and did the initial flights at Wondai, it can be a real black hole to the North, as can Roma.
As an ex night/IFR instructor I saw lots of illusions and responses to them,
It cannot be emphasised enough the need to rotate and go onto instruments with a good cross-check.
I helped install the lights and did the initial flights at Wondai, it can be a real black hole to the North, as can Roma.
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Gulf Air Flight 072 August 2000
Somatographic illusion or spatial disorientation was one of the causes of this A320 crash a few years ago.
Gulf Air Flight 072 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Gulf Air Flight 072 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I saw the ASI going balsitic & if anyone knows the old Dove the only way that could happen is in a dive! So I grabbed the ASI like it was a life jacket & held 80 kts or so 'till I was almost to the Moon!!!! I didn't get fixated on the AH as that inst can be very confusing when under duress I just referenced it to make sure my wings where fairly level.
I think anything with a modern-ish attitude indicator with pitch and bank increments and clear delineation as to what's up and what's down would be the primary go-to instrument to get attitude + power = performance happening ASAP. The AI is certainly my first port of call in any leans-type situation, followed quickly by establishment of a scan to the other instruments to confirm it's not bull****ting me.
What you described sounded like some good limited panel flying, maybe something people don't get to practice that much these days. It certainly is possible to fly on turn needle, compass, ASI and altimeter alone if you have to, or even less, but if there's any kind of useful attitude reference around I'd go for that first.
Last edited by Arm out the window; 26th Mar 2013 at 09:54.
That's true 'AOTW' it was an old steam driven AH but even if I did have a half decent AH i am of the old school where the ASI is a very handy tool to have when experiencing difficulties in holding attitude. Power wasn't the issue, full steam ahead was the order of the day or in this case the night!
I did at the time glance at the AH to get an overall picture of the fast happening events mainly to keep the wings level but don't forget the AH has two lots of info being presented to you (pitch & roll) & under the illusion being discussed here those two in one presentations could be brain overload when under the pump, under normal Ops a peace of cake:-)
I still advocate KNOW yr PLANE not just what the instruments are telling you as there's more to flying in IMC (same as night in VMC with zero outside cues), we have other senses than the eyes, use 'em all I say!
Anyway it's just the way I cope/ed with that particular situation & used that basic ability a few times over the years, each to their own I guess
Wmk2
I did at the time glance at the AH to get an overall picture of the fast happening events mainly to keep the wings level but don't forget the AH has two lots of info being presented to you (pitch & roll) & under the illusion being discussed here those two in one presentations could be brain overload when under the pump, under normal Ops a peace of cake:-)
I still advocate KNOW yr PLANE not just what the instruments are telling you as there's more to flying in IMC (same as night in VMC with zero outside cues), we have other senses than the eyes, use 'em all I say!
Anyway it's just the way I cope/ed with that particular situation & used that basic ability a few times over the years, each to their own I guess
Wmk2
Be wary flying over water too. You can get disoriented flying out of Point Cook over the bay when you get one of those dead flat winter days with a lead sky and lead sea - you lose the horizon.
The other trap I saw last year was flying over Lake Frome with no wind and a perfect reflection of the sky on the water. That had me wondering fro a second which way was up.
The other trap I saw last year was flying over Lake Frome with no wind and a perfect reflection of the sky on the water. That had me wondering fro a second which way was up.
The other trap I saw last year was flying over Lake Frome with no wind and a perfect reflection of the sky on the water. That had me wondering fro a second which way was up.
DF.
When it happened to me I was fairly fresh MEIR pilot with about 1100hrs total and about ten night hours. I only had about 100 hours on the Baron. The first thing I noticed as the lights disappeared from view and it all got very black was that my airspeed was higher than I was used to. Everything else felt normal and that left me with a feeling of confusion. I thought to myself that something wasn't right and thought a bit about what my AH was telling me....."why is that AH showing such a low attitude when I know I'm pitching up even more than normal?" I looked at my ASI again.... " 100kts.....that's gotta be wrong..." back to the AH " **** that looks different....crap I'm confused...ASI 110kts and I'm still pitching up, wanna push forward....ahhh man this is how people crash.....I know....full power, wings level, ten degrees pitch, powers good, ten degrees pitch, powers good, ten degrees pitch, powers good, ten degrees pitch....airspeed is coming back to normal, not so confused, there are the lights of a nearby town.....confusion gone.....Jesus wept I nearly killed myself".
That all started at about 200f when the runway lights disappeared underneath me and was over by 1000ft. If I didn't have an IFR rating I am confident I would have pushed forward until I hit the ground. At the time I hadn't done an IFR flight since my flight training two years prior but had been doing night cross country flights VFR ( charter) and so was fairly used to using the AH as a primary reference. I also had the benefit of a family member being a 747 training Captain and he had said to always remind myself of the pitch attitude I want to see when I get airborne prior to rolling at night. I had never thought it could have been that confusing and it hasn't happened to me in the last 6000 hrs of flight. So although this particular accident could have been caused by 100 other things, personally, I know that somotogravic illusion is a real killer and think that many pilots who had not had the IFR training and advice etc must have met their end in a state of confusion with a serviceable aircraft.
That all started at about 200f when the runway lights disappeared underneath me and was over by 1000ft. If I didn't have an IFR rating I am confident I would have pushed forward until I hit the ground. At the time I hadn't done an IFR flight since my flight training two years prior but had been doing night cross country flights VFR ( charter) and so was fairly used to using the AH as a primary reference. I also had the benefit of a family member being a 747 training Captain and he had said to always remind myself of the pitch attitude I want to see when I get airborne prior to rolling at night. I had never thought it could have been that confusing and it hasn't happened to me in the last 6000 hrs of flight. So although this particular accident could have been caused by 100 other things, personally, I know that somotogravic illusion is a real killer and think that many pilots who had not had the IFR training and advice etc must have met their end in a state of confusion with a serviceable aircraft.
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They released a minor update today.
Update: 27 March 2013
The ATSB team is continuing its investigation activities on-site. The team has found that the aircraft’s right wing hit a 8 metre tree before the aircraft struck the ground.
The team has been canvassing local residents for hearing and witness reports and received some good hearing reports on the engine operation as a result.
Examination of the engine will be completed today and the team will then concentrate on the fuselage, cockpit and instrument and related systems.
Any components retained by the team from the site will be examined at the ATSB facilities in Canberra over the coming weeks. ATSB investigators will also be reviewing pilot experience and logbooks.
The next update will be provided in around 30 days.
The ATSB team is continuing its investigation activities on-site. The team has found that the aircraft’s right wing hit a 8 metre tree before the aircraft struck the ground.
The team has been canvassing local residents for hearing and witness reports and received some good hearing reports on the engine operation as a result.
Examination of the engine will be completed today and the team will then concentrate on the fuselage, cockpit and instrument and related systems.
Any components retained by the team from the site will be examined at the ATSB facilities in Canberra over the coming weeks. ATSB investigators will also be reviewing pilot experience and logbooks.
The next update will be provided in around 30 days.
Corrected..
TM I stand corrected on the 580 spear in. Can't advise my friend ...already folded his wings too, alas.
Bushies Metro did a gentle descent into the weeds after take off from Emerald many moons ago, on a dark and stormy night.
And the pilot lived to tell the tale. One lucky driver.!
Re the sky mirrored in a lake. VERY disorienting... even at a safe level above.
Lake AIR...??
And watch out if you are in a steep descending turn over blank terrain...and not looking up and out for the horizon, and nothing on the ground for scale.
Been there..... and nearly flew straight into the dirt..!
Bushies Metro did a gentle descent into the weeds after take off from Emerald many moons ago, on a dark and stormy night.
And the pilot lived to tell the tale. One lucky driver.!
Re the sky mirrored in a lake. VERY disorienting... even at a safe level above.
Lake AIR...??
And watch out if you are in a steep descending turn over blank terrain...and not looking up and out for the horizon, and nothing on the ground for scale.
Been there..... and nearly flew straight into the dirt..!
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Lake Eyre, that's correct. There was water in it at the time! There's photos of it on the wall in the Lake Eyre Yacht Club. I took a photo of of the photo but am struggling to find it.