Avalon Air Show - Waste Of Time
I remember attending a Puckapunyal live firepower display. The navy Skyhawks got a standing ovation from the grunts for their bombing accuracy.
I don't know which was more disastrous for Australia; Hawke's dismantling of Australian naval aviation, or his handling of the dispute of 'that year'.
I don't know which was more disastrous for Australia; Hawke's dismantling of Australian naval aviation, or his handling of the dispute of 'that year'.
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Surely not 
By the inference of him/her, well I think I saw them fly each day, but circling a jump suit display could have gone missing and I did not notice.
If so who was it (from CASA)? Let them be judged by their peers.
By the inference of him/her, well I think I saw them fly each day, but circling a jump suit display could have gone missing and I did not notice.
If so who was it (from CASA)? Let them be judged by their peers.
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At display briefing there were bitter complaints by numerous display pilots regarding the immediate pre show AOD testing of the main GA display acts..
Several of the OS acts thought it was a joke in very bad taste and they found it difficult to comprehend that this could happen during pre display preflight inspection and preparations. Astounded would not be too strong a word.
The CASA rep, that is the ONLY casa attendee that day went very quiet when the ringmaster, or deputy ringmaster i think, in any case one of the persons actually addressing safety, asked him why he had authorized/approved/directed this testing and when pressed he muttered references to CASRs as if that justified such outrageous behaviour.
The GA10 pilot, that is test pilot, helmet parachute and all, was at holding point Charlie about to push the start button to meet his departure slot time when he got a tap on the window and an AOD test lobbed on him. Tricky with the special door pins removed, so crew had to re-insert door pins to enable the intrusive 'safety measure' to be conducted and delay the proceedings right in the middle of start checks.
It is almost as if they were trying to cause an incident/accident by distracting pilots at such a critical time. Which would not be their fault of course.
I can only hope that this was all done to illustrate the utter futility and complete stupidity of this BS to those further up the food chain at the so called Safety authority. Otherwise it was a demonstration of how to lose friends and intimidate people.
HD
Several of the OS acts thought it was a joke in very bad taste and they found it difficult to comprehend that this could happen during pre display preflight inspection and preparations. Astounded would not be too strong a word.
The CASA rep, that is the ONLY casa attendee that day went very quiet when the ringmaster, or deputy ringmaster i think, in any case one of the persons actually addressing safety, asked him why he had authorized/approved/directed this testing and when pressed he muttered references to CASRs as if that justified such outrageous behaviour.
The GA10 pilot, that is test pilot, helmet parachute and all, was at holding point Charlie about to push the start button to meet his departure slot time when he got a tap on the window and an AOD test lobbed on him. Tricky with the special door pins removed, so crew had to re-insert door pins to enable the intrusive 'safety measure' to be conducted and delay the proceedings right in the middle of start checks.
It is almost as if they were trying to cause an incident/accident by distracting pilots at such a critical time. Which would not be their fault of course.
I can only hope that this was all done to illustrate the utter futility and complete stupidity of this BS to those further up the food chain at the so called Safety authority. Otherwise it was a demonstration of how to lose friends and intimidate people.
HD
Nemo Me Impune Lacessit
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500N -How do they get away with it at Puckapunyal ?
There is simply no comparison between a civvy display under the auspices of CASA and a purely military display on military land, controlled and run by the military!
Thread Starter
Agreed Parabellum, you can't leave UXO around a civilian airfield, it is very untidy and may also make anyone who interferes with the same very untidy. In any case Avalon is too small to provide the safety buffers required.
Failure rates for artillery shells are around 25%. I would assume likewise for bombs. In my trampings around in the extremities of the Pucka range many years ago, I came across (read tripped over) quite a bit of unexploded stuff, mostly 25 pounder rounds. What really got my attention was that some of them were time fuzed for airburst and the fuze appeared intact for some reason. I wonder if they cleaned all that stuff up by now?
Failure rates for artillery shells are around 25%. I would assume likewise for bombs. In my trampings around in the extremities of the Pucka range many years ago, I came across (read tripped over) quite a bit of unexploded stuff, mostly 25 pounder rounds. What really got my attention was that some of them were time fuzed for airburst and the fuze appeared intact for some reason. I wonder if they cleaned all that stuff up by now?
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parabellum
When referring to Pucka, I was referring to your comment about hung up bombs and lack of diversionary airfields.
"You might want to consider the necessary procedures when live ordnance gets 'hung up' on an aircraft too and the effect that would have on a crowded airfield with just one runway and not much about for a diversion with a 'hung' bomb load."
When referring to Pucka, I was referring to your comment about hung up bombs and lack of diversionary airfields.
"You might want to consider the necessary procedures when live ordnance gets 'hung up' on an aircraft too and the effect that would have on a crowded airfield with just one runway and not much about for a diversion with a 'hung' bomb load."
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Puckapunyal
At the time we had A4's (pre 1984?) nearby military airports would have included Laverton and Point Cook.
Pretty certain both could accommodate A4's.
DIVOSH!
Pretty certain both could accommodate A4's.
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Point Cook would have been a bit short for the A4 I'd guess at around 4,500'
DIVOSH!
(Sorry for the thread drift)
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To those who complained about things, is it really that hard to go to an event like Avalon with an open mind? It is a nearly unfathomably HUGE undertaking to organise something of this size, the fact they can bring such aircaft to one place every two years is amazing and something I'm personally very greatful for.
And to OP, Is it difficult to start a thread on a web forum with a title that isn't unfair and nasty?
What's wrong with a title like "Why I didn't like Avalon... " etc the current title is rather declarative regardless of what you said through the thread about you personally not liking it. I didn't like some things either but on a universal level thought it was fantastic and served its purpose really well.
It was my first visit to Avalon. I have attended previous air pageants and displays at Point Cook but this was the first "big" airshow I'd been to. I went on friday to catch the last of the trade expo and then enjoy the arvo/evening airshow.
I was glad I registered for a trade pass! I was not sure what to expect, but being pointed into a (free) car park just for trade visitors and exhibitors was nice, and I must say I was pleasantly surprised when a little golf cart turned up and I was given a lift down to the main entrance (I arrived at 11am and the first bunch of rows were already full). I had thought about perhaps flying in, or hitching a ride with someone else flying in, but I had heard a day or two prior East was closed due to wet ground and I had heard horror stories about anal CASA agents jumping out of bushes and fining people for wearing the wrong facial expressions etc.
Getting my pass done up was easy and I recall someone complained about the security checks being invasive. In what way? they are the same at nearly every large public event in Victoria. Go to the cricket, go to the Grand Prix in particular and you will have the exact same setup, except perhaps minus the x-ray machine.
I thought the static displays were set out nicely and there was a fantastic range of aircraft out for people to see. You might think (some of you probably do) that you can get closer to aircraft at smaller airshows like at Point Cook. IME not the case, you could reach out and touch pretty much everything but the fighter jets. I was surprised I could stand under the belly of the B52 and stick my head in one of the engines. I enjoyed the freedom of walking around, seeing some of these aircraft up close and being able to talk to crews and being let past the ropes in some cases. When the airshow crew were moving the boomerang and the spit I walked along with the planes.
Great atmosphere out on the tarmac during the trade time.
A lot of the pilots and crew outside were really friendly, there was on embraer pilot who ignored a bunch of suits and instead allowed a couple of blokes (who were clearly there to take photos, no intention or means whatsoever to buy anything) in instead and let them sit in the cockpit and let people through the fence for photos. I liked that, for example, the augusta westland choppers didn't have fences all the way around them - some visitors who brought their kids got to take photos of them next to the choppers, plenty of kids also seemed thrilled to be able to stand next to them and get a photo once the gates opened to the public. Airshow staff kept their distance, I didn't once see someone being told off for standing near aircraft or having photos taken etc When directing people across taxiways etc they were very friendly.
The vintage (beechcraft I think...) twin radial aicraft, shiny polished metal, parked near the sabre and spitfire etc was gorgeous, probably the most beautiful plane on stati display.
The trade halls were interesting. I don't know what some of you were expecting at an event called "Avalon aerospace and defence" expo, but I was not surprised in the slightest that it was full of aerospace and defence/military exhibits. I was also not surprise there was hardly any GA stuff there. It's all in the name. It's pretty clear what the point of the expo was.
Same goes for people complaining about exhibitors packing up and leaving at certain times. They are there in a trade role. They are there to sell things. Once the trade hours end or when the buyers go elsewhere they will leave. It makes sense to me. It costs them money to be there, especially some of the bigger/international exhibitors who would be paying travel costs and accomodation etc.
I thought there was a good mix considering the space available, of GA and military/commercial stuff on display outside. As far as the expo halls go, as I said I wasn't surprised by the content, however I do agree that GA could effectively be incorporated making it a hell of a lot more relevant and productive for a broader range of trade visitors. Did anyone here buy any Russian helicopters or planes? Was I the only one walking by those stands going "really?" I bet a lot more money would be passed around and a lot more product sold if there was a bigger GA element (maybe a whole new hall or two dedicated to GA products)
The atmosphere definitely changed when the gates opened to the public. I predicted this and I'd headed down to the flight line to pick a good spot near the runway. Suddenly I was hearing funny comments left right and center like "oh they're flying the f35 today" or "omg man they're going to do a sonic boom" "those hornets can do ten times the speed of sound" etc etc which provided adequate entertainment until the flying displays started.
They flew that G10 (?? correct?) first BEFORE the printed time for commencement of flying displays, I believe, which caught a few people off guard. It was good. For the record they flew the other G10 again late in the afternoon some time if I recall correctly.
Everything was great. I enjoyed all the displays, the pitts/extra at the beginning was something else. I was annoyed by the mass of plebs who were on their iphones or chatting away with their backs turned on the light aerobatic displays and who all rushed the fences when a fighter jet came on, I guess I shouldn't have expected otherwise. I thought there was a good representation of said aircraft, it's just a pity most people ignored them, same with the warbirds, I noticed most people chatting or on the phone etc when the spit and boomerang, and kitty hawk/mustang were out. I don't think they got as much emphasis as they deserved, they were only out for a short time. The F22 was indeed good, although I personally enjoyed the hornets and F16 more, of the fighter aircraft. The Catalina was great. Sabre is always good. Meteor was great! All they were missing was the DH vampire! The caribou at sunset was the highlight for me, and then getting to walk up close and inspect the aircraft after it taxied back to park was great. I loved Connie and the other night displays. IMO they should have just ended with the jet glider. My god that display was beautiful.
I missed the herc at the end, I wish I had have known that they were going to do the flare drop.
Traffic there and back was pain free compared to what I thought it was oing to be like.
Overall I was there from 11am to about 9pm and had a ball. It was well worth the 60 dollars. I can understand people complainin about costs if you were say a family of five with older kids, but seriously if you were a trade visitor who only had to pay the 60 dollars entry I cannot see what you have to sook about. It's not really that much.
Also to OP, if a sales person failed to perform for you or you didn't come away from the event with the information you wanted to gather, no reason to piss on the work of many many people and what was actually a great event. The evidence was in the smiles of the kids. Even if a lot of armchair youtube expert wankers were about they were all clearly having fun being close to aircraft. All the families seemed to be having a great time. And contrary to the seriousness in the first part of the day of uniforms and industry accreditation, most of the trade visitors were walking around with big smiles having a good time as well. It's like going to the cricket and you want michael clarke to see the sign you made out of cardboard that says "marry me michael pls kthx" and then wave at you and say "yes I'll marry you man" and jump into the stands and marry you right there on the spot, and then calling the whole event a waste of time because it doesn't happen, regardless of the thousands of other people around having a fantastic day
And to OP, Is it difficult to start a thread on a web forum with a title that isn't unfair and nasty?
What's wrong with a title like "Why I didn't like Avalon... " etc the current title is rather declarative regardless of what you said through the thread about you personally not liking it. I didn't like some things either but on a universal level thought it was fantastic and served its purpose really well.
It was my first visit to Avalon. I have attended previous air pageants and displays at Point Cook but this was the first "big" airshow I'd been to. I went on friday to catch the last of the trade expo and then enjoy the arvo/evening airshow.
I was glad I registered for a trade pass! I was not sure what to expect, but being pointed into a (free) car park just for trade visitors and exhibitors was nice, and I must say I was pleasantly surprised when a little golf cart turned up and I was given a lift down to the main entrance (I arrived at 11am and the first bunch of rows were already full). I had thought about perhaps flying in, or hitching a ride with someone else flying in, but I had heard a day or two prior East was closed due to wet ground and I had heard horror stories about anal CASA agents jumping out of bushes and fining people for wearing the wrong facial expressions etc.
Getting my pass done up was easy and I recall someone complained about the security checks being invasive. In what way? they are the same at nearly every large public event in Victoria. Go to the cricket, go to the Grand Prix in particular and you will have the exact same setup, except perhaps minus the x-ray machine.
I thought the static displays were set out nicely and there was a fantastic range of aircraft out for people to see. You might think (some of you probably do) that you can get closer to aircraft at smaller airshows like at Point Cook. IME not the case, you could reach out and touch pretty much everything but the fighter jets. I was surprised I could stand under the belly of the B52 and stick my head in one of the engines. I enjoyed the freedom of walking around, seeing some of these aircraft up close and being able to talk to crews and being let past the ropes in some cases. When the airshow crew were moving the boomerang and the spit I walked along with the planes.
Great atmosphere out on the tarmac during the trade time.
A lot of the pilots and crew outside were really friendly, there was on embraer pilot who ignored a bunch of suits and instead allowed a couple of blokes (who were clearly there to take photos, no intention or means whatsoever to buy anything) in instead and let them sit in the cockpit and let people through the fence for photos. I liked that, for example, the augusta westland choppers didn't have fences all the way around them - some visitors who brought their kids got to take photos of them next to the choppers, plenty of kids also seemed thrilled to be able to stand next to them and get a photo once the gates opened to the public. Airshow staff kept their distance, I didn't once see someone being told off for standing near aircraft or having photos taken etc When directing people across taxiways etc they were very friendly.
The vintage (beechcraft I think...) twin radial aicraft, shiny polished metal, parked near the sabre and spitfire etc was gorgeous, probably the most beautiful plane on stati display.
The trade halls were interesting. I don't know what some of you were expecting at an event called "Avalon aerospace and defence" expo, but I was not surprised in the slightest that it was full of aerospace and defence/military exhibits. I was also not surprise there was hardly any GA stuff there. It's all in the name. It's pretty clear what the point of the expo was.
Same goes for people complaining about exhibitors packing up and leaving at certain times. They are there in a trade role. They are there to sell things. Once the trade hours end or when the buyers go elsewhere they will leave. It makes sense to me. It costs them money to be there, especially some of the bigger/international exhibitors who would be paying travel costs and accomodation etc.
I thought there was a good mix considering the space available, of GA and military/commercial stuff on display outside. As far as the expo halls go, as I said I wasn't surprised by the content, however I do agree that GA could effectively be incorporated making it a hell of a lot more relevant and productive for a broader range of trade visitors. Did anyone here buy any Russian helicopters or planes? Was I the only one walking by those stands going "really?" I bet a lot more money would be passed around and a lot more product sold if there was a bigger GA element (maybe a whole new hall or two dedicated to GA products)
The atmosphere definitely changed when the gates opened to the public. I predicted this and I'd headed down to the flight line to pick a good spot near the runway. Suddenly I was hearing funny comments left right and center like "oh they're flying the f35 today" or "omg man they're going to do a sonic boom" "those hornets can do ten times the speed of sound" etc etc which provided adequate entertainment until the flying displays started.
They flew that G10 (?? correct?) first BEFORE the printed time for commencement of flying displays, I believe, which caught a few people off guard. It was good. For the record they flew the other G10 again late in the afternoon some time if I recall correctly.
Everything was great. I enjoyed all the displays, the pitts/extra at the beginning was something else. I was annoyed by the mass of plebs who were on their iphones or chatting away with their backs turned on the light aerobatic displays and who all rushed the fences when a fighter jet came on, I guess I shouldn't have expected otherwise. I thought there was a good representation of said aircraft, it's just a pity most people ignored them, same with the warbirds, I noticed most people chatting or on the phone etc when the spit and boomerang, and kitty hawk/mustang were out. I don't think they got as much emphasis as they deserved, they were only out for a short time. The F22 was indeed good, although I personally enjoyed the hornets and F16 more, of the fighter aircraft. The Catalina was great. Sabre is always good. Meteor was great! All they were missing was the DH vampire! The caribou at sunset was the highlight for me, and then getting to walk up close and inspect the aircraft after it taxied back to park was great. I loved Connie and the other night displays. IMO they should have just ended with the jet glider. My god that display was beautiful.
I missed the herc at the end, I wish I had have known that they were going to do the flare drop.
Traffic there and back was pain free compared to what I thought it was oing to be like.
Overall I was there from 11am to about 9pm and had a ball. It was well worth the 60 dollars. I can understand people complainin about costs if you were say a family of five with older kids, but seriously if you were a trade visitor who only had to pay the 60 dollars entry I cannot see what you have to sook about. It's not really that much.
Also to OP, if a sales person failed to perform for you or you didn't come away from the event with the information you wanted to gather, no reason to piss on the work of many many people and what was actually a great event. The evidence was in the smiles of the kids. Even if a lot of armchair youtube expert wankers were about they were all clearly having fun being close to aircraft. All the families seemed to be having a great time. And contrary to the seriousness in the first part of the day of uniforms and industry accreditation, most of the trade visitors were walking around with big smiles having a good time as well. It's like going to the cricket and you want michael clarke to see the sign you made out of cardboard that says "marry me michael pls kthx" and then wave at you and say "yes I'll marry you man" and jump into the stands and marry you right there on the spot, and then calling the whole event a waste of time because it doesn't happen, regardless of the thousands of other people around having a fantastic day
Laverton and Point Cook are ( were ) two different Airfields my friend..
Laverton did take the more modern Fighter Jets, Point Cook didn't.
Laverton did take the more modern Fighter Jets, Point Cook didn't.
Last edited by nitpicker330; 13th Mar 2013 at 02:56.
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Laverton and Point Cook are ( were ) two different Airfields my friend..
DIVOSH!
(P.S. Did you pick your handle?
)
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I did enjoy trade day on Thursday. The corporate jets (only $3.9m AUD for the nice little Embrearer Phenom) and the helos (VICPOL showed up) did it for me. But I had already made up my mind beforehand that if I should find just one thing that is different and interesting from last time then it would be worthwhile.
GA was very much missing in action, and the stalls were a bit dissapointing with not much enthusiasm being shown on both sides. I hope this is just transient as I recall in days gone by when I used to be involved in setting it up there were smiles everywhere, I guess the bean counters took care of that.
$60 entry fee was a bit steep, but still cheaper than a concert ticket, I would have liked to have gone a second time but that is currently not within my budget.
The volunteers were fantastic, in fact they were the only ones smiling actually, and it was good to strike a chat with a few of them.
Funnily enough I missed seeing the flying displays, were there any that day?
That ugly looking F22 Raptor didn't appeal, sorry, and the Yanks who are normally enthusiastic about their wares seemed to be AWOL too.
I sincerely hope the GA presence we once knew comes back, maybe they can be given their own exclusive corner on the airfield with their own stalls nearby as they have a very different business model to the military forces.
Maybe this was the result of being at the tail end of the GFC, if so then I think the organizers did a very good job under the circumstances. Here is to 2015 being a little more vibrant.
GA was very much missing in action, and the stalls were a bit dissapointing with not much enthusiasm being shown on both sides. I hope this is just transient as I recall in days gone by when I used to be involved in setting it up there were smiles everywhere, I guess the bean counters took care of that.
$60 entry fee was a bit steep, but still cheaper than a concert ticket, I would have liked to have gone a second time but that is currently not within my budget.
The volunteers were fantastic, in fact they were the only ones smiling actually, and it was good to strike a chat with a few of them.
Funnily enough I missed seeing the flying displays, were there any that day?
That ugly looking F22 Raptor didn't appeal, sorry, and the Yanks who are normally enthusiastic about their wares seemed to be AWOL too.
I sincerely hope the GA presence we once knew comes back, maybe they can be given their own exclusive corner on the airfield with their own stalls nearby as they have a very different business model to the military forces.
Maybe this was the result of being at the tail end of the GFC, if so then I think the organizers did a very good job under the circumstances. Here is to 2015 being a little more vibrant.
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Maybe this was the result of being at the tail end of the GFC, if so then I think the organizers did a very good job under the circumstances. Here is to 2015 being a little more vibrant.