Port Hedland AFISO - Flight Service, the Next Generation!

[Capn Bloggs]

I wonder what the Airspace Classification it will be? Does Class G provide for an AFIS?

They did a similar thing at Karratha before the tower (re) opened, but that was manned by ATC. In this case though, if all they are going to do is employ ex Griffos, it would have been simpler just to set up a CAGRO. All the documentation is already in place.

The airspace should actually be Class F, transitioning to a tower.

[Pinky the pilot]

Aww, c"mon Griffo. Do you mean to tell us that if someone in authority waved a big bunch of 50s and 100s under your nose to at least just go there and train up a bunch of new FSOs that you wouldn't be tempted?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Hi Pinky,
Wot DID I have for breakfast this morning??

Did I have brekkie??

Er...Traffic was.... (Scary...)

'Abbinoon' Bloggsie,
To be a CAGRO, the criteria (Think BRM) was to have held ATC or FS Licence.
In my time there, we were all ex PH FS as most of us had been made 'redundo' fairly 'recently' in those days.

Keep smiling...

[Nautilus Blue]

As for DTI for the rest of OZ....too far gone now, IMHO.
All FS frequencies / outlets were either swapped over to ATC freqs, or dismantled. Hence we had a 'few' Flightwatch VHF's around the place, 3 in WA at one time - these were the ones superfluous to ATC req's.
Now they have g o r n e as well.

Except that IFR/IFR DTI is universal, and IFR/VFR and VFR/VFR DTI still exists inside surveillance coverage. Flightwatch VHF was shut down because the service moved to area VHF. If I had a dollar for every VFR flight plan amendment I'd taken, I could buy a coffee every week.

The good old days were indeed better from a service point of view, but we live in a user pays world, and the user didn't want to pay.

The airspace should actually be Class F

Without wishing to turn this into another alphabet airspace debate, why F?

[Capn Bloggs]

Without wishing to turn this into another alphabet airspace debate, why F?

F is uncontrolled airspace with a collision avoidance service/ATAS for IFR, which means DTI. Australian Class G is ICAO G on steroids because ours has full DTI when ICAO G has only a FIS. The purists also say that Class F is only a temporary, transitional airspace category between G and moving to D or E (); just right for YPPD.

SKYbrary - Classification of Airspace

[Nautilus Blue]

From that link,

Class F. IFR and VFR flights are permitted, all participating IFR flights receive an air traffic advisory service and all flights receive flight information service if requested.

Now that I don't have a problem with, as you say its almost what we do in G.

But, "air traffic advisory service" is (my bold)

Air Traffic Advisory Service is a service provided within advisory airspace to ensure separation, insofar as practical, between aircraft which are operating on IFR flight plans.

What does that mean to me as an ATC? I am required separate, even though you are not subject to a clearance, unless I can't, in which case I'm not? "Ensure" and "Separate" have very very specific meanings in our books, and neither allow for "if practical" escape clauses. (It may be that Eurocontrol are using the terms more loosely.)

Some people have argued that out "G plus" is a temporary, transitional airspace category between our old full service OCTA and proper ICAO G, but the transition has lasted 20+ years and counting.

And it looks like I have started an airspace classification argument, sorry

[Capn Bloggs]

Originally Posted by NB

What does that mean to me as an ATC? I am required separate, even though you are not subject to a clearance, unless I can't, in which case I'm not?

Reading too much into it. You are not required to separate aircraft, the service provides information so that separation can be maintained ie the pilots use the info from the (your) advisory service to keep themselves separated.

As for the camp who thought HiCap RPT jets and Props operating in a no-traffic info, no radio environment was aok, well, thankfully that was in a previous age. Haven't heard from Leddie for a while, here he comes now, when you get here, where's that reference in AIP about operating 1nm off track in CTA...

[Dick Smith]

When I was involved in the removal of Australia's unique full position reporting system for VFR aircraft in the early 90's I was told many lives would be lost.

What is the current factual information on this considering we have now over 20 years of experience and data?

I think the evidence will show it was a gross mis allocation of resources.

Then again Dubbo FS was great in phoning for a taxi!

[Dick Smith]

And Bloggs. Class F has no requirement for VFR aircraft to be fitted with a radio.

And you sure wouldn't like that!

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

Does anyone remember...??

"Your Safety Will Be Enhanced And It Will Cost You Less"......

NEITHER HAS OCCURRED ! ! !



p.s. Thanks for the redundo....

[kimwestt]

Good ole days.

Or a hot toasted sango 9 pm at DBY. What was that long legged shielas name?
Bloody good sangos!!

[peuce]

Dick, never under-estimate a human being's self preservation abilities.

I daresay that if you took away all ATC now, there may not even be a prang, due to our innate self preservation skills.

But geez we'd have to work hard at it.

[Hempy]

Dick,
No one has any problems with you deluding yourself. I'm sure in your mind you believe you made the right decision back then, and I guess thats your prerogative...
But please, dont come on here and try and convince the people who deal in it and with it every day that it is what is most obviously isn't. Just be happy that in 20 or 30 years time there wont be anyone left who remembers what a real and proper 'service' is, and no one to know what a fk up you made.

[Traffic_Is_Er_Was]

Maybe if it wasn't in Hedland? No one wanted to go there when it was a FSC .
Much as I look back on the life with rose-coloured glasses, there was much more to the job than just providing a traffic service in an AFIZ and I don't think I'd want to do just that bit again (which was actually the easiest bit). We looked after half of Arnhem Land. It was providing a service throughout the whole FIA that I enjoyed (and for a lot less than $78-93k). The job wasn't just all about traffic advisories. If you want aircraft separated, then pay for ATC.

"They" have already decided long ago the service was not warranted or required.
Let "Them" deal with the consequences of that decision.

From the position description:

Actively demonstrate the Airservices Values of Excellence, Inclusion, Cohesion and Initiative

Had a laugh at that bit.

[SOPS]

IMHO FSUs were the best thing in Australian aviation, and it was a sad day when they closed. No matter what Dick thinks.

[Vag277]

I did my abinitio training in PD in 75/76. We had Flight Service, Ops Control, Tower and Met.

[Capn Bloggs]

C'Mon, Griffo, they're laying on some nice weather for you to entice you back...

SPECI YPPD 252209Z AUTO 14042G61KT 6000 -SHRA SCT037 BKN061 BKN075 24/22 Q0987
RMK RF00.2/011.4

[Towering Q]

Tell me about it Bloggs....it's positively evil outside!!!

But you guys should be able to get in....it's blowing straight down 14.

[Capn Bloggs]

But you guys should be able to get in....it's blowing straight down 14.

No can do. Too windy for the walkaround; mess up my perm!

[le Pingouin]

Values