24 Times in a Row - Clearance Not Available.
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Flying IFR into EN from the West there are route planning reqts to go via Wendy etc. Even then, you will generally get vectored around to the South so that you end up coming in from around Westgate or a descent to Flemington for a reasonably long final. Think I have had a direct clearance once at night. Its got nothing to do with being VFR - only that they can't accommodate you.
One other thing to consider - if the student is sounding hesitant and, mmmnnnn, like he has some issues communicating in English when under the pump, it might well help tip the balance against you if the controller thinks it will be difficult to move you around if things get difficult.
Finally, if its about training, after the student is told to keep away why don't you tell the controller that you would appreciate vectors for student training purposes - they might then be able to keep you in controlled airspace close to the boundary and out of the way - then if you get vectored out over the bay (this will depend on your level) beyond gliding distance (SE) you will be able to teach the student a valuable lesson of not blindly doing something just because ATC tells them to do it.
One other thing to consider - if the student is sounding hesitant and, mmmnnnn, like he has some issues communicating in English when under the pump, it might well help tip the balance against you if the controller thinks it will be difficult to move you around if things get difficult.
Finally, if its about training, after the student is told to keep away why don't you tell the controller that you would appreciate vectors for student training purposes - they might then be able to keep you in controlled airspace close to the boundary and out of the way - then if you get vectored out over the bay (this will depend on your level) beyond gliding distance (SE) you will be able to teach the student a valuable lesson of not blindly doing something just because ATC tells them to do it.
Join Date: May 2001
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BLT-EN
Up until 2 years ago we used to plan MB based CPL Nav's out around Western Vic then back via BLT for fuel then BLT direct EN in Class C with very few problems .... provided the initial Clearance Request call is made early and in the correct format and sounding competant the controllers are always as helpful as the traffic workloads permits , this may involve a few minor vectors however nine times out of ten we got the clearance and everyone is happy.
If controllers are no longer able to handle VFR AWK training flights direct into EN it's a poor outcome.
If controllers are no longer able to handle VFR AWK training flights direct into EN it's a poor outcome.
Overflying EN for MB is a lot less of a problem as you're over the top of the traffic landing on R34. Landing at EN you're cutting across the VOR/RNAV approach from the north and west, and nose to nose with the visual approach from the SE and east.
Just look at the STAR plates - ARBEY, WENDY, WAREN, LIZZI:
YMML Charts
Just look at the STAR plates - ARBEY, WENDY, WAREN, LIZZI:
YMML Charts
This is pretty simple.
Call ATC and ssk them where the best chance of a successful clearance is and why the others havent been cleared.Id say some of the answers are already here... ATC work for and with us (the huge fees we pay etc), but they cannot put us or anyone else in harms way.
On the subject of what a CPL nav should entail. I would say that having to divert and find a way that was not expected is the best form of training the student will get. In a flight test, the ATO loves it when this happens because its one less scenario they have to create, and they can sit back and watch how the student deals with it.
Finally..If your CFI is not willing to make a change to the syllabus that leads to successful outcomes for the CTA part of training, then I would find that perplexing to say the least.
Good luck
Call ATC and ssk them where the best chance of a successful clearance is and why the others havent been cleared.Id say some of the answers are already here... ATC work for and with us (the huge fees we pay etc), but they cannot put us or anyone else in harms way.
On the subject of what a CPL nav should entail. I would say that having to divert and find a way that was not expected is the best form of training the student will get. In a flight test, the ATO loves it when this happens because its one less scenario they have to create, and they can sit back and watch how the student deals with it.
Finally..If your CFI is not willing to make a change to the syllabus that leads to successful outcomes for the CTA part of training, then I would find that perplexing to say the least.
Good luck
Last edited by Homesick-Angel; 7th Oct 2012 at 06:54.
There's probably no point in ringing now about a specific explanation for specific previous occurrences - memory is short and quite possibly won't be answered by someone who was actually on. I would ring up and discuss your options in general. Also ringing up on the day to find out what is likely and when would probably help you. If nothing else talk to EN tower.
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Oz 3, You do need to know 'how things work' to make it work for you. There are some clearances you are just not going to get, mostly due to runway configurations. Things you you NEED to do are make sure a plan is in. It doesn't matter a rats arse if the ERSA says call 10 miles prior to the boundary. When they are short staffed and you are giving them minimum notice with no plan, quite rightly, they will tell you to piss off. Call 20 miles prior to the boundary on the area frequency, with a plan in and get the code at least, they can get you identified at least before you call Radar (which is now called centre but should be called Radar).
It pays to ring the terminal phone number prior to airborne and ask the the dood which track is the most likely to get you a clearance. Ask them if the runway configuration changes what should I plan on? If you keep getting knock backs, complain, complain, complain. Nothing will change if you keep taking it up the jaxie. There are a few pilots on radar, they want to give you a clearance but staffing often dictates not.
Weasel words:
Operational Requirement = Staff shortage. Email Nick Xenephon and tell him you have had a gutfull of short staffing. You pay for a service through the avgas surcharge, demand a friggin' service.
The 'service' ASA 'provides' VFR is pathetic. I have talked to many pilots GA and RPT who are sick and tired of the bull****. I had to change a feeder fix 4 times this morning and their star twice, all within 140 miles Melbourne. Try doing a pre approach brief when you are copping that bull****. It's embarrassing after a while. It's embarrassing sometimes to admit who I work for. You need to get a delegation of like minded instructors to make noises.
The 'service' provided is just not good enough. There are reasons behind the scenes that this is happening. Too many to discuss here. Don't whinge on prune food, it will do nothing. PM me if you want a phone number to discuss
It pays to ring the terminal phone number prior to airborne and ask the the dood which track is the most likely to get you a clearance. Ask them if the runway configuration changes what should I plan on? If you keep getting knock backs, complain, complain, complain. Nothing will change if you keep taking it up the jaxie. There are a few pilots on radar, they want to give you a clearance but staffing often dictates not.
Weasel words:
Operational Requirement = Staff shortage. Email Nick Xenephon and tell him you have had a gutfull of short staffing. You pay for a service through the avgas surcharge, demand a friggin' service.
The 'service' ASA 'provides' VFR is pathetic. I have talked to many pilots GA and RPT who are sick and tired of the bull****. I had to change a feeder fix 4 times this morning and their star twice, all within 140 miles Melbourne. Try doing a pre approach brief when you are copping that bull****. It's embarrassing after a while. It's embarrassing sometimes to admit who I work for. You need to get a delegation of like minded instructors to make noises.
The 'service' provided is just not good enough. There are reasons behind the scenes that this is happening. Too many to discuss here. Don't whinge on prune food, it will do nothing. PM me if you want a phone number to discuss
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Expecting VFR pilots to look up SIDs and STARs and plan around them according to the runways in use at YMML is asking a bit much I would have thought.
In general, the pilot should tell ATC where they want to go, ATC should work out how to get them there while avoiding other traffic, SIDs STARs in use etc.
In the OP's case, what is wrong with ATC giving them something along the lines of Rockbank - Flemington - Essendon, with vectors as required, descending to 3000 by Rockbank then 2000? Are ATC required to give you exactly the route asked for or "clearance not available"?
I'm sure it makes life easier for ATC to keep GA/VFR traffic out of controlled airspace, but it is not the service they are supposed to be supplying (whether that is due to staffing or other issues).
In general, the pilot should tell ATC where they want to go, ATC should work out how to get them there while avoiding other traffic, SIDs STARs in use etc.
In the OP's case, what is wrong with ATC giving them something along the lines of Rockbank - Flemington - Essendon, with vectors as required, descending to 3000 by Rockbank then 2000? Are ATC required to give you exactly the route asked for or "clearance not available"?
I'm sure it makes life easier for ATC to keep GA/VFR traffic out of controlled airspace, but it is not the service they are supposed to be supplying (whether that is due to staffing or other issues).
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The Essendon stuff around is not limited to VFR traffic, normally arriving at ARBEY I am given a heading of around 110 and told to expect a visual approach straight in 26 or right base 35. This heading is normally for around 15 miles at which point the vectors start, if you are lucky you may be cleared to descend even though you advised TOD 20 miles ago. The vectors will then take you on a nice scenic flight covering kilmore, whittlesea and lilydale. Somewhere around the Yarra Valley direct to PLE for the ILS, despite not being ADF equipped on the flight plan, being told to expect a visual approach, and reporting visual with the field in sight.
I notice there is a note in ERSA stating to expect 10 mins holding for a 1 hour period each day. I have never been held just vectored for up to 30 mins - this is a significantly different amout of fuel that a person who doesnt fly there very often may not have.
Surely some type of arrival could be designed that can be planned for, that will make life easier for both pilot and controller and perhaps provide somewhere to hold where you can burn less fuel than just flying 50 extra track miles?
Departing early morning with the GAM aircraft and the ML traffic is also good fun, right turn off 35 heading 150 until through 5000 when your plan is via MNG or OWENS. Request visual dep vis westgate and I get told that will increase the delay?
I notice there is a note in ERSA stating to expect 10 mins holding for a 1 hour period each day. I have never been held just vectored for up to 30 mins - this is a significantly different amout of fuel that a person who doesnt fly there very often may not have.
Surely some type of arrival could be designed that can be planned for, that will make life easier for both pilot and controller and perhaps provide somewhere to hold where you can burn less fuel than just flying 50 extra track miles?
Departing early morning with the GAM aircraft and the ML traffic is also good fun, right turn off 35 heading 150 until through 5000 when your plan is via MNG or OWENS. Request visual dep vis westgate and I get told that will increase the delay?
andrewr, no one is expecting that, but they are germane to the discussion.
As a controller if you anticipate being very busy then you start knocking stuff back that will unnecessarily increase workload and you keep things simple. Vectoring VFR is discouraged - we don't know for certain that we'll be able to vector a VFR everywhere we need, for instance through cloud. How does a VFR navigate once the vector is terminated?
As a pilot would you voluntarily take on a task when you're already in a high workload situation or expecting to be so? Yes, we're there to provide a service, but it's not at all cost. I regularly get knock backs from pilots because they're busy and don't want more workload.
Was the aircraft prevented from getting to EN? No.
As a controller if you anticipate being very busy then you start knocking stuff back that will unnecessarily increase workload and you keep things simple. Vectoring VFR is discouraged - we don't know for certain that we'll be able to vector a VFR everywhere we need, for instance through cloud. How does a VFR navigate once the vector is terminated?
As a pilot would you voluntarily take on a task when you're already in a high workload situation or expecting to be so? Yes, we're there to provide a service, but it's not at all cost. I regularly get knock backs from pilots because they're busy and don't want more workload.
Was the aircraft prevented from getting to EN? No.
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Was the aircraft prevented from getting to EN? No.
AIP ENR 1.1 para 3.11:
ATC is responsible for issuing clearances that will enable an aircraft to remain within controlled airspace if the pilot has planned to do so.
It sounds like they planned to be in controlled airspace from 30nm from Melbourne. Controlled airspace isn't restricted to IFR, commercial or RPT aircraft. By the book, they are entitled to do that and the request was not unreasonable.
As for cloud, that is always something VFR aircraft in CTA have to work around. What happens if there is a cloud between Westgate and Essendon?
I take your point about workload, but that is my main point as well - ATC are supposed to be able to deal with VFR aircraft. If 24 times in a row ATC have been unable to deliver service due to workload it suggests a problem inside ATC. If I am repeatedly too busy to help someone in my job, pretty soon management start getting pointed questions about staff levels. It is reasonable for users of the service to ask why it is not available.
I have seen much material produced by CASA and/or Airservices about violations of controlled airspace, and complaints about people skirting the boundaries. Does it occur to them that the prime cause of VCAs is discouraging VFR aircraft from getting a clearance through, and having them go around instead? Would you rather someone be 1 mile inside with a clearance and talking to you, or 1 mile outside and not? (Or if you prefer 500' above the step with a clearance vs. at the level of the step without?)
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I am sure the instructor is familiar with AIP ENR 1.4 - 16 & 17. This type of operation is at the bottom of the list. How far into the 24 knock backs does this become a student rip off? Some how other schools manage to put through commercial students.
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I am just not understanding what the problem is.
VFR into a highly congested airspace for a COMMERCIAL candidate?
Don't they have their IF rating already? if not, work on that first. They need as much practice IF as possible.
If they request an IFR clearance and are denied, then I understand the issue.
If they are VFR landing at an airport within the airspace, and are being denied, then I understand the issue.
But VFR into a congested airspace - everywhere I've ever flown, if you request a VFR 'clearance' (technically that's not the right word) to pass through an airspace, I've been told to stay clear. This includes several countries, but to be specific in the US alone, Portland Oregon, Seattle Washington, Los Angeles California, San Diego California, San Francisco California, Cleveland Ohio, Dayton Ohio, Indiannapolis Indiana, Chicago Illinois. Try flying 'through' any of those VFR, at almost any time day or night, and you'll hear 'calling aircraft stay clear of my airspace' - they won't read back your registration because if they do then it's a two-way communication and for some of those airspaces that's enough to allow you to enter.
If I file IFR and get a different route from clearance delivery, then the next time I file I will use the route they seem to prefer. After just one or two trips I know the preferred route (even though it can be different from the published preferred route)
VFR into a highly congested airspace for a COMMERCIAL candidate?
Don't they have their IF rating already? if not, work on that first. They need as much practice IF as possible.
If they request an IFR clearance and are denied, then I understand the issue.
If they are VFR landing at an airport within the airspace, and are being denied, then I understand the issue.
But VFR into a congested airspace - everywhere I've ever flown, if you request a VFR 'clearance' (technically that's not the right word) to pass through an airspace, I've been told to stay clear. This includes several countries, but to be specific in the US alone, Portland Oregon, Seattle Washington, Los Angeles California, San Diego California, San Francisco California, Cleveland Ohio, Dayton Ohio, Indiannapolis Indiana, Chicago Illinois. Try flying 'through' any of those VFR, at almost any time day or night, and you'll hear 'calling aircraft stay clear of my airspace' - they won't read back your registration because if they do then it's a two-way communication and for some of those airspaces that's enough to allow you to enter.
If I file IFR and get a different route from clearance delivery, then the next time I file I will use the route they seem to prefer. After just one or two trips I know the preferred route (even though it can be different from the published preferred route)
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No requirement for an I/R to hold CPL in Australia, unlike most other countries. That's why you have many students doing CPL first, and adding an I/R when they can afford/actually require one.
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From my Australian military airspace days, it was called VFR arrival and VFR departure - is that terminology used these days by Civilian ATC?
Last edited by VH-XXX; 9th Oct 2012 at 09:37.