Touch and go
Thread Starter
Touch and go
Does anyone know, with some degree of specificity, how much runway a well executed touch and go will burn up vs a normal standing start?
<edit> I should say I'm thinking of something like a mooney or a cardinal, but anything to do with a light trainer will be of interest
<edit> I should say I'm thinking of something like a mooney or a cardinal, but anything to do with a light trainer will be of interest
Last edited by walesregent; 2nd Sep 2012 at 02:36.
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Not with absolute accuracy, it depends on how quick and safely you can do several things at once.
The fact you are still rolling lessens the effect, but say 200m roughly.
Touch and goes in a Mooney on a short strip
And at night....NEVER do touch and goes. Full stop, taxi back reconfigure go again. If the runway is really long, sure stop first, reconfigure, go again.
my $0.22 worth
The fact you are still rolling lessens the effect, but say 200m roughly.
Touch and goes in a Mooney on a short strip
And at night....NEVER do touch and goes. Full stop, taxi back reconfigure go again. If the runway is really long, sure stop first, reconfigure, go again.
my $0.22 worth
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Why the night part Jabba, I hadn't heard anyone say that before?
I did have an instructor tell me on my first solo to absolutely not do a touch-and-go, but otherwise nobody has said that before.
I did have an instructor tell me on my first solo to absolutely not do a touch-and-go, but otherwise nobody has said that before.
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Night thing is just alittle issue with somatogravic illusions, night time is not the right time to discover the limitations of your vestibular system.
Every night takeoff is a new adventure, no needto make it something from Harry Potter
Every night takeoff is a new adventure, no needto make it something from Harry Potter
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601 why would you add them together ?????? the aircraft has plenty of Kinetic energy so it is just the time taken to re configureand go !!!!!
I like the 200metre figure for asingle engine bug smasher
I like the 200metre figure for asingle engine bug smasher
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Here is a new leaf....jaba and T28D working together.
T28D is definately onto it. I do not have the experience he has here so I will let him deal with that.
however, as far as being organised, flaps set, trims set, pumps on etc etc......at night you see less, and with any cockpit full daylight you are far better organised.
If you want to be organised and sure that everything is well sorted, turn up the lights full bore, pull out your LED Mag Light, and then get ready to go again.
Over to you T28D
PS
Do I need to say this AGAIN????? 
I was trying to be calm earlier.
And I do not have the night experience of most on this forum, but what I do have is mostly dark.......dark as the inside of a cow! refer above. Live long and aviate!
T28D is definately onto it. I do not have the experience he has here so I will let him deal with that.
however, as far as being organised, flaps set, trims set, pumps on etc etc......at night you see less, and with any cockpit full daylight you are far better organised.
If you want to be organised and sure that everything is well sorted, turn up the lights full bore, pull out your LED Mag Light, and then get ready to go again.
Over to you T28D
PS
And at night....NEVER do touch and goes. Full stop, taxi back reconfigure go again. If the runway is really long, sure stop first, reconfigure, go again.
And at night....NEVER do touch and goes. Full stop, taxi back reconfigure go again. If the runway is really long, sure stop first, reconfigure, go again.
And at night....NEVER do touch and goes. Full stop, taxi back reconfigure go again. If the runway is really long, sure stop first, reconfigure, go again.
I was trying to be calm earlier.And I do not have the night experience of most on this forum, but what I do have is mostly dark.......dark as the inside of a cow! refer above. Live long and aviate!
Thread Starter
I think that rule re: touch and goes at night could be applied to any unfamiliar (particularly shortish) strip. Whatever benefit it is imagined circuits during a training Nav might provide, you could be in for a rude shock when you discover how big the gap between published and actual TODR can be in whatever decrepit rust bucket you are in, especially allowing for the standard of technique of your average Ppl trainee.
What my concern is is that students are taught to fill in p charts and then conduct procedures for which they are of little relevance, and I wonder if any rigor is applied in assessing field suitability for touch and go circuits.
What my concern is is that students are taught to fill in p charts and then conduct procedures for which they are of little relevance, and I wonder if any rigor is applied in assessing field suitability for touch and go circuits.
601 why would you add them together
As there are no charts for this, it is in the same can of worms as the question given to me by a DCA Examiner when departing on a IR Renewal in a C310.
"What is the decision speed for this departure"
Last edited by 601; 2nd Sep 2012 at 23:14.
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The vestibular system suffers badly from acceleration in any direction, not just straight line acceleration.
Fluid movement in the canals will lead to the "leans" and other illusionary effects.
A night takeoff into an instrument climb is not the right time to find out you have sensory illusion difficulties.
The transition onto instruments difficult enough without added complication coming from a rushed reconfiguration , a quite sudden change from pitch down in the final phase through flare to runway, re config, now power on and back into theclimb and after T/O checks.
At night all actions should be nice and slow, double check, and if in doubt don't go.
Fluid movement in the canals will lead to the "leans" and other illusionary effects.
A night takeoff into an instrument climb is not the right time to find out you have sensory illusion difficulties.
The transition onto instruments difficult enough without added complication coming from a rushed reconfiguration , a quite sudden change from pitch down in the final phase through flare to runway, re config, now power on and back into theclimb and after T/O checks.
At night all actions should be nice and slow, double check, and if in doubt don't go.
I realise this isn't what you asked about but I have used a couple of transport category AFMs that state touch and go landings shouldn't be performed on runways shorter than the ASDR distance + Takeoff distance required.
Seems reasonable in those types, a bit of fumbling with retrimming etc and the rwy end gets bigger way too quick.
Seems reasonable in those types, a bit of fumbling with retrimming etc and the rwy end gets bigger way too quick.
Last edited by Fred Gassit; 2nd Sep 2012 at 23:51.
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Getting past the human factors implications others have raised, I imagine the following will have an effect on the answer sought by the OP
1. The difference in speeds between landing and lift off
2. When in the sequence power is applied
3. The time taken to reconfigure the a/c e.g. electric flap and/or trim versus manual operation
4. The all important pilot accuracy, competency and technique.
5. The a/c type in question.
I imagine there are a few others. As has been suggested, ASDA plus TODR isn't a bad start.
Didn't know the night thing was an issue myself. Night circuits as part of a night rating are in my logbook.
1. The difference in speeds between landing and lift off
2. When in the sequence power is applied
3. The time taken to reconfigure the a/c e.g. electric flap and/or trim versus manual operation
4. The all important pilot accuracy, competency and technique.
5. The a/c type in question.
I imagine there are a few others. As has been suggested, ASDA plus TODR isn't a bad start.
Didn't know the night thing was an issue myself. Night circuits as part of a night rating are in my logbook.
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Are we talking no touch and go's for beginner pilots or are you saying don't do them ever?
I think of all the times I've seen visitors at night to my local, I've never seen any of them doing full stops and back-tracks (950m). Just an observation; not saying that I disagree with anything that anyone has said here.
I think of all the times I've seen visitors at night to my local, I've never seen any of them doing full stops and back-tracks (950m). Just an observation; not saying that I disagree with anything that anyone has said here.
Thread Starter
Thanks for the replies. I certainly did plenty of t & g's at shortish strips day and night during my training and I don't think anyone thought too hard about the aforementioned issues in signing me out. However a recent scare with a student after the bucket of bolts we were flying failed to get anything like the advertised take off or climb performance has made me think about it pretty hard. The technique of the student couldn't be faulted in this case, which is lucky to say the least, and I really don't like being reliant on luck.
Last edited by walesregent; 3rd Sep 2012 at 04:02.
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How far? I would have said... it depends entirely on the pilot, and on the training being conducted.
I have done not-very-competent touch & goes almost to a stop where LDR+TODR was about right. But then I have also done bounce & goes for no purpose at all except fun, which uses hardly any runway.
If you're an instructor, I think LDR+TODR keeps the accidents away, except full stop only at night as others have said. I wouldn't use the word never though - there's always a 4000m x 60m runway somewhere with bright lights and no terrain concerns!
I have done not-very-competent touch & goes almost to a stop where LDR+TODR was about right. But then I have also done bounce & goes for no purpose at all except fun, which uses hardly any runway.
If you're an instructor, I think LDR+TODR keeps the accidents away, except full stop only at night as others have said. I wouldn't use the word never though - there's always a 4000m x 60m runway somewhere with bright lights and no terrain concerns!
The vestibular system suffers badly from acceleration in any direction, not just straight line acceleration.
Fluid movement in the canals will lead to the "leans" and other illusionary effects.
A night takeoff into an instrument climb is not the right time to find out you have sensory illusion difficulties.
The transition onto instruments difficult enough without added complication coming from a rushed reconfiguration , a quite sudden change from pitch down in the final phase through flare to runway, re config, now power on and back into theclimb and after T/O checks.
At night all actions should be nice and slow, double check, and if in doubt don't go.
Fluid movement in the canals will lead to the "leans" and other illusionary effects.
A night takeoff into an instrument climb is not the right time to find out you have sensory illusion difficulties.
The transition onto instruments difficult enough without added complication coming from a rushed reconfiguration , a quite sudden change from pitch down in the final phase through flare to runway, re config, now power on and back into theclimb and after T/O checks.
At night all actions should be nice and slow, double check, and if in doubt don't go.
2. Acceleration in a T&Go isn't going to be any greater than in a takeoff roll, and is actually going to be for a shorter duration so a pilot would likely experience less of a somatogravic effect.
3. Why reconfigure, take off in your touch down configuration...
4. I've done plenty. Hasn't hurt me yet. (and yes I have experienced the somatogravic effect, never on a T&G)
Last edited by flighthappens; 3rd Sep 2012 at 09:58.
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Flighthappens, read carefully what I said, no mention of the Otoliths.
3. Why reconfigure, take off in your touch down configuration...
Yup should be a snap , a C172 from my memory wont climb with full flap out, as indeed most other marginal performance bug smashers are so limited.
Flap retraction close to the ground in an instrument climb out is getting close to test pilot stuff in my opinion, good for a student ?????? no way.
3. Why reconfigure, take off in your touch down configuration...
Yup should be a snap , a C172 from my memory wont climb with full flap out, as indeed most other marginal performance bug smashers are so limited.
Flap retraction close to the ground in an instrument climb out is getting close to test pilot stuff in my opinion, good for a student ?????? no way.