Australia and NZ

[wxjedi]

I'll be moving to Aus or NZ next year as my partner has got a good job down there.
What is the procedure for getting approval to work as an EU citizen and is it easy to get a licence when I have a JAR ATPL?

[mattyj]

Much easier than going the other way..
..getting a job on the other hand...

[wxjedi]

Luckily I have a job in Aus.

[Bongo Bus Driver]

Why is it easier to come from Europe and convert a licence but harder going the other way? Surely it must be the same as per some agreement between the licencing bodies?

[Oktas8]

The CASA website has information on converting a foreign ATPL, and it's not excessively difficult or expensive* to convert your license. Regarding getting a job, providing you have the right to live & work in Australia, there is no xenophobia that I've noticed - that is, you'll be in with a chance just like everyone else. But you will have to move around a bit to get the first & second jobs, which may be a problem if your partner has a job already.

If in NZ, the same comments apply, except it's the Civil Aviation Authority of New Zealand website. Again, regarding getting a job, there is some minor protection-of-local-pilots-discrimination* in the form of "recent NZ experience" required by one or two operators, but it's easily overcome with the application of some time & money. As with everything in life I suppose!

Regarding written exams. The EASA syllabus has been described as being a mile wide and an inch deep - that is, you have to know very little about a broad range of topics. CASA prefers the mile-deep-and-an-inch-wide approach: there are fewer topics to memorise, but you really have to be very good at those topics to be able to pass. Practice exams are therefore essential. NZ is probably similar to CASA but not quite so much - shall we say 3038 feet wide and 3038 feet deep?

BongoBusDriver - ahh, how I smile at how naiive I too used to be! But now I'm being a patronising git - sorry about that. Seriously though, Europeans bureaucrats believe that no-one is safe in European skies unless they've done a European pilot training course. Run by European instructors, naturally. Ordinary European citizens are however just as nice a group of people as you'd find anywhere and we shouldn't hold it against them.

Best of luck,
O8

*Europe is much worse in this regard, so no complaints please.

[Worrals in the wilds]

What is the procedure for getting approval to work as an EU citizen and is it easy to get a licence when I have a JAR ATPL?

Flying aside, if you want to work in Australia you will need to get the right sort of visa (I assume you are not an Aussie or a permanent resident? If you are, disregard the following).

If your partner is being sponsored by a company they may be able to advise you, but either way you will need to get in touch with these guys. It is illegal to work in Australia without the right sort of visa and if you're moving next year, you need to start looking at this now. It's not the sort of thing you can sort out by filling in a form on arrival.

Department of Immigration & Citizenship
P.S. They're not renowned for being helpful. There are companies that provide visa assistance for people wanting to come to Australia. Some of them are total sharks but some are good. They all charge like scrub bulls but it may be worth it to avoid some of the hassle.

Luckily I have a job in Aus.

EDIT: Sorry, just saw this bit. So you have a sponsored position in Australia? Hopefully your employer will sort out the above hassles, but do check.

[wxjedi]

Many thanks for the replies. They are very useful.
Tom

[papazulu]

Regarding written exams. The EASA syllabus has been described as being a mile wide and an inch deep - that is, you have to know very little about a broad range of topics. CASA prefers the mile-deep-and-an-inch-wide approach: there are fewer topics to memorise, but you really have to be very good at those topics to be able to pass. Practice exams are therefore essential.

Would you mind to elaborate a bit on that?

While I agree totally on the EASA-madness bit (I had to endure it all myself, having done the initial training in US), as I am going through the ATC's CPL Air law book, I am finding many similarities with the FAA system which seems to be hold in little consideration by Australian aviation operators (namely one Flight School I got in touch with for my practical exams) but I haven't faced their tests yet. I am still waiting for my ARN so I am not sure where/what I should look up to find suitable material. When it comes to an FAA test, it's easy-peasy to figure out what are the most popular questions...

Other than that I am in the same situation of wxjedi except I don't have a job there, just some reasonable pilot experience. From the info I gathered on the web, it seems there is a positive upbeat for no-entry level pilots there. Am I wrong?

Regards

PZ

[Oktas8]

Hi Papazulu,

I wouldn't use FAA books to study for the Australian exams, except as a resource for theory (e.g. "how does a magneto work?"). Here's an example why: thunderstorms in the US tend to occur in large cells or super-cells, in certain geographic regions, in certain seasons. In Australia, super-cells are less common (I think) and the other information is simply not relevant. So while the theory is the same, the practical is different. CASA will assess practical knowledge - which is a good thing!

There are several training providers in Australia at CPL and ATPL level who have excellent reputations for delivering theory, either classroom or by correspondence. I found Rob Avery good, but there are others too.

My comment about practice exams was aimed at focussing in on the key syllabus items that tend to trip people. Not so much learning answers to "favourite questions" but more getting used to the style of wording, getting used to the accuracy required, etc. I failed ATPL FPL first time because I was too slow. I had not practised with reputable practice exams. Second time, four practice exams under my belt, gained an easy pass.

it seems there is a positive upbeat for no-entry level pilots there.

I'm sorry, I genuinely don't understand that sentence.

All the best,
O8

[papazulu]

Hi O8

I obviously didn't mean to carry the FAA knowledge-bag across without taking an hard look at CASA and AUS requirements!

What I mean is that regulation-wise the systems have some similarities but by no means one can walk into a CASA-exam room without having done his/her homework, rest assured on that. On the other hand I have a 2000-hrs flight experience, so I understand what you mean by

focussing in on the key syllabus items that tend to trip people. Not so much learning answers to "favourite questions" but more getting used to the style of wording, getting used to the accuracy required, etc.

but I would like to hear any experience in detail, perhaps from folks that have walked the FAA (or JAA) to CASA path.

At the moment I am getting ready for the CLWA using ATC book and whatever source for the CHUF (I don't think CASA has an independent, new school on this subject so FAA & JAA should be enough) but I am not sure which is the best way to practice. You mentioned 4 p/attempts: did you have to pay for it? Is there any "open" source of practice material for the topics I have to face (i.e. the Gleims or ASA books in USA)? Any advice is greatly appreciated.

it seems there is a positive upbeat for no-entry level pilots there.

JOBS! I've heard there might be openings coming up for pilots with 1-2K (and more) hrs experience. Is that fact or myth?

Regards

PZ

[Mach E Avelli]

PZ there are always jobs out there in remote areas for go-getter pilots with 1000 to 2000 hours. Any of the towns where there is mining nearby or a busy scenic tour season. Plus the Torres Strait Islands.
It is not so easy to crack a job on the south east or south west coast because everyone else got there first.
When you get an Aussie work visa, CPL and instrument rating feel free to pm me and I may have some leads. But not until you are employable here, please.

[papazulu]

Appreciated Mach, very much! It's going to be a looong process since CASA doesn't offer any "online" option to do get some work done while still in EU but I'll get there eventually.

Cheers

PZ

[Oktas8]

I would like to hear any experience in detail, perhaps from folks that have walked the FAA (or JAA) to CASA path

Right.

In addition to overseas ATPL theory passes, I also had a day job in GA that required me to keep my theory knowledge up to date. Therefore, I only studied jet-theory and Australian-specific knowledge (e.g. aviation law) before doing exams. I think the JAA system helped me in that it gave me the principles behind each topic. JAA ATPL study notes would also have helped to some extent, although the CASA questions are more practical and require deeper knowledge in some areas, especially Systems. For example, I did not know whether windscreen rain-repellent fluid on a jet should be sprayed on before or after the windscreen becomes wet by rain. (Systems is regarded as one of the tougher subjects. It deserves real study rather than just completing practice exams.)

Practice exams helped me both to refresh my knowledge ("I thought I knew that, but it turns out I need some study") and to clarify the line between nice-to-know and need-to-know. I purchased tests commercially from Rob Avery. These can be completed by www I think, which is likely to help you in your current situation. There are plenty of other reputable providers out there; however I am unaware of any good product that is free. The CASA database is closed (as distinct from the FAA's open database) but, as in JAR-land, the main providers have a pretty good idea of what questions are in the database and what questions tend to cause problems.

I think CASA also publish statistics on common areas of weakness, which is helpful to focus your efforts. Try searching their website for "CyberExams".

All the best,
O8

[sgenie]

I was wondering - as a fresh NZ CPL, what are the options for me with regard to using my CPL? I am not after a full time pilot job but are there ways to put my newly minted CPL to good use in Auckland? Drop zones? Glider towing? I would appreciate if there are forum grands who might shed a bit of advise.

[Howard Hughes]

wxjedi, just use 'the force' and everything will be OK!

[bigglesjr]

Hi I am looking for some advise on good distance learning courses to pass the CASA CPL/ATPL conversion exams, also does anyone know of any reputable flight schools around Brisbane to do the IREX flight test?

[remoak]

Europeans bureaucrats believe that no-one is safe in European skies unless they've done a European pilot training course.

Maybe now, but not in the past.

When I first went to the UK in the '80s, I had to visit the Belgrano (UK CAA office) to get my licence issued, and was told to head off to the staff cafe while I waited. This turned out to be a silver service restaurant! Anyway, I got talking to a senior CAA licensing mandarin, who told me that in the early '80s the UK CAA had offered a reciprocal agreement to all commonwealth countries, but was TURNED DOWN by Oz and NZ, pretty much on the basis that only Aussies and Kiwis knew anything about aviation etc etc. So the Brits aren't the ones at fault, they offered the hand of friendship and common sense but were slapped down by our own arrogant authorities.

Wouldn't the world be a different place if their offer had been accepted...???

[Aero_mike]

Gidday im about to move back to Aus after completing my training in NZ. I have my CPL, MEIR and am going to do my c-cat instructor rating and wanted to see if anyone on here has converted their NZ C-Cat to an AUS grade three.

My main question is; do you have to do your 100hrs, 6 months supervision to be able to convert it or can i just sit the flight test then then head back to Aus??. Ive read the TTMRA on the CASA and CAA sight but cant seem to get a clear answer, also any general information on being an instructor over there would be much appreciated!!

Thanks a bunch!

[outboundjetsetter]

Originally Posted by Aero_mike

Gidday im about to move back to Aus after completing my training in NZ. I have my CPL, MEIR and am going to do my c-cat instructor rating and wanted to see if anyone on here has converted their NZ C-Cat to an AUS grade three.

My main question is; do you have to do your 100hrs, 6 months supervision to be able to convert it or can i just sit the flight test then then head back to Aus??. Ive read the TTMRA on the CASA and CAA sight but cant seem to get a clear answer, also any general information on being an instructor over there would be much appreciated!!

Thanks a bunch!

Aero Mike things may have changed as I did this back in 2004 but converted the C-Cat to grade 3 while sill under supervision ( about 50 hours of instructing) with no questions asked... This mind you was back in the day when CASA had an office in Darwin and you could take your log books in and physically talk to someone over the counter.. don't see how they would have an issue really.. a c - cat is c-cat .. as is... a grade 3 is a grade 3!
Hope this helps..
Outbound.