Working for Free!
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Working for Free!
It has been brought to my attention for a flying job advertised within Australia, that an extremely large amount of applicants who applied, most having not even met the minimum requirments, are publicising that they will WORK FOR FREE! This is unbelievable and those that do should be shown the door to any job. And that goes to employers who take on these people and use them for their own gain.
I've never known of an industry where younger ones entering the profession are ruining it not only for themselves, but for those us trying to succeed.
It makes me absolutely furious that there are people like this out there!
There are reasons the Fair Work Act has a minimum wage, and this should be the MINIMUM paid. If you can't afford to pay that, you shouldn't be in business!!
Simple!
I've never known of an industry where younger ones entering the profession are ruining it not only for themselves, but for those us trying to succeed.
It makes me absolutely furious that there are people like this out there!
There are reasons the Fair Work Act has a minimum wage, and this should be the MINIMUM paid. If you can't afford to pay that, you shouldn't be in business!!
Simple!
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I've never known of an industry where younger ones entering the profession are ruining it not only for themselves, but for those us trying to succeed.
Did any of the applicants offer sexual favours to the recruiter? That's also pretty standard in entertainment. 
If the Marquis de Sade were alive today he'd be making a very happy living as a recruiter for fashion models or reality TV shows, and probably wouldn't have time to write anything. 
In both industries it undermines conditions, drives down pay and generally
s everyone else around. Before too long that particular career path becomes pretty much untenable for anyone wanting to make a living wage. By way of example, this has already happened with acting and music thanks to people who'll literally do anything for exposure. A classical musician spends at least ten and usually fifteen years learning their craft, which is worth jack all when some inferior person will turn up and play for nix.
Agree with you 100%.
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Nothing has changed
I once had a pilot send me his CV and he offered to work for free. I rang him and told him that if he worked for free he must be getting paid what he is worth. I have even had pilots offering to pay the insurance excess due to his inexperience!
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Ive also had my own experience with the mininum wage for pilots. Idesperately want to fly but I have a mortgage and a wife and baby to support. The so called 'award' needs to be brought up to todays standards. With all the money spent on training and study inbolved to obtain licenses its no wonder kids these days choose anything but flying to study.
Something has got to give and soon!
Something has got to give and
soon!
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2 words: Supply and Demand.
There's not much of a career path in being a professional waterslide tester, not because it doesn't need to be done, but because lots of people really, really want to do it.
There's not much of a career path in being a professional waterslide tester, not because it doesn't need to be done, but because lots of people really, really want to do it.
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Of course, this kind of thing has been going on for years, is still going on, and will continue into the future. 
And always for the same reasons which we all know about.
You only have to look at some of the recent contracts offered by J* both here and in EnZed to see how many people are willing to fly an A320 for well below average wages, and with the likelihood of servicing massive training loans as well.
Read through some of the Euopean wannabees forums and look at the P2F schemes where not only are pilots paying for jet endorsements, they are paying to fly their first 500 hours on line.
But did this start overnight? Did pilots suddenly just start offering to work for free, or has there been a gradual lowering of what pilots are willing to get paid to fly bigger and bigger equipment until we get to the current situation?
Maybe, if pilots in the past weren't willing to earn, say $14,800 for a ME-IFR job like the bloke on this thread did:
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...job-worth.html
and maybe if pilots wouldn't accept flying under appalling conditions like this bloke did:
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...ml#post6318126
then there wouldn't be pilots willing to work for free today!
Of course I'm being a bit harsh on Hold_Short here, as he's far from the only pilot who's guilty of this kind of thing, and people have been doing this since well before he became a commercial pilot.
Bizarre, though, that he's either forgotten his recent past, or is showing some amazing hypocrisy; accusing others of continuing the decline of which he was recently party.
DIVOSH!
And always for the same reasons which we all know about.
You only have to look at some of the recent contracts offered by J* both here and in EnZed to see how many people are willing to fly an A320 for well below average wages, and with the likelihood of servicing massive training loans as well.
Read through some of the Euopean wannabees forums and look at the P2F schemes where not only are pilots paying for jet endorsements, they are paying to fly their first 500 hours on line.
But did this start overnight? Did pilots suddenly just start offering to work for free, or has there been a gradual lowering of what pilots are willing to get paid to fly bigger and bigger equipment until we get to the current situation?
Maybe, if pilots in the past weren't willing to earn, say $14,800 for a ME-IFR job like the bloke on this thread did:
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...job-worth.html
and maybe if pilots wouldn't accept flying under appalling conditions like this bloke did:
http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-a...ml#post6318126
then there wouldn't be pilots willing to work for free today!
Of course I'm being a bit harsh on Hold_Short here, as he's far from the only pilot who's guilty of this kind of thing, and people have been doing this since well before he became a commercial pilot.
Bizarre, though, that he's either forgotten his recent past, or is showing some amazing hypocrisy; accusing others of continuing the decline of which he was recently party.
DIVOSH!
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DIVOSH! Never have I ever worked for free! Let's get that straight. I have only accepted the minimum wages in the past because it is legal and nothing done wrong by the employer for offering it.
What the problem is is other people accepting and agreeing to a wage which is less than acceptable. It takes two to tango and the previous thread is right. Supply vs Demand...the more people willing to accept the offerings and promote cheap labor, the lower the next jobs wage will be.
A $50 000 a year job today will be taken next year by another guy who will do it for $5 000 less, while all other costs increase. And the flowon continues.
Although some companies offer above award wages at present, next year they will reduce TO the minimum and yet the job will still be highly sort after!
I'm sure in a few years when the J* cadets and the REX cadets get there upgrades, they won't be paid at the wage a captain is on at present. It will be less and yet each of them will jump at it!
What the problem is is other people accepting and agreeing to a wage which is less than acceptable. It takes two to tango and the previous thread is right. Supply vs Demand...the more people willing to accept the offerings and promote cheap labor, the lower the next jobs wage will be.
A $50 000 a year job today will be taken next year by another guy who will do it for $5 000 less, while all other costs increase. And the flowon continues.
Although some companies offer above award wages at present, next year they will reduce TO the minimum and yet the job will still be highly sort after!
I'm sure in a few years when the J* cadets and the REX cadets get there upgrades, they won't be paid at the wage a captain is on at present. It will be less and yet each of them will jump at it!
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My big pet hate and have heard it happen ten times over.
To low timers: go to AFAP where you see the jobs and read the pilot award!
I have also heard "it is easy to say that when you have experience". That may be true but most people on this forum would have done the hard yards to get where they are.
To low timers: go to AFAP where you see the jobs and read the pilot award!
I have also heard "it is easy to say that when you have experience". That may be true but most people on this forum would have done the hard yards to get where they are.
Last edited by Piano Man; 27th Jul 2012 at 04:59.
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Agree that working for free or less than the required standard is unacceptable for both the employer and the pilot. (Legally for the employer, morally for the pilot)
As long as you meet the minimum under the award, then it is legal.
The more subjective question is whether the minimum is sufficient pay for someone that has just forked out $90,000 in training costs and sacrificed 2 years or more for training and experience.
Lets say you score a gig flying a PA31-350 doing freight. The award appears to pay you a min of about $42K p/a full time, plus allowances for IFR, unloading etc.. (Yes, we all know that no one pays the allowances either - "becasue we just can't afford it...").
Lets compare this to a first year solicitor/lawyer (that I met the other day) that did a graduate law degree and incurred fees of $106 (law degree of $96K and practice course of $8000, plus admission fees etc ... etc..). He gets paid the princely sum of $35K p/a. Which is not uncommon in suburban or botique firms.
So the lawyer gets paid a lot less than the pilot.
Its all a BIG generalisation, as the first 1-3 years of any profession can be quite low pay.
But, after 4 years and 2000 hours in the book you could be flying a B200 (Air Ambulance or RFDS) for about $85K+ p/a, which looks palatable, if not enjoyable.
I'd be quite happy to do a year on $42K+ allowances on twins, but agree that it would not pay the mortgage or the lifestyle to which the family have become accustomed.
It is problematic that recovering the amount you spent on training and living at the same time is going to be hard, unless you have a benefactor. Or you have already made your money and decided to spend the $90K and chuck in your higher paying job (whcih I can't seem to bring myself to do).
Simple labour economics - supply and demand.
B.1Classifications and minimum salaries
B.1.1Aircraft classification and minimum salaries
[B.1.1 substituted by PR997787 from 31May10; varied by PR997933, PR503362 from 01Nov10; PR509077, PR522908ppc 01Jul12]
Full-time pilots employed by an airline operation or a general aviation employer must be paid at least the following minimum annual salaries:
As long as you meet the minimum under the award, then it is legal.
The more subjective question is whether the minimum is sufficient pay for someone that has just forked out $90,000 in training costs and sacrificed 2 years or more for training and experience.
Lets say you score a gig flying a PA31-350 doing freight. The award appears to pay you a min of about $42K p/a full time, plus allowances for IFR, unloading etc.. (Yes, we all know that no one pays the allowances either - "becasue we just can't afford it...").
Lets compare this to a first year solicitor/lawyer (that I met the other day) that did a graduate law degree and incurred fees of $106 (law degree of $96K and practice course of $8000, plus admission fees etc ... etc..). He gets paid the princely sum of $35K p/a. Which is not uncommon in suburban or botique firms.
So the lawyer gets paid a lot less than the pilot.
Its all a BIG generalisation, as the first 1-3 years of any profession can be quite low pay.
But, after 4 years and 2000 hours in the book you could be flying a B200 (Air Ambulance or RFDS) for about $85K+ p/a, which looks palatable, if not enjoyable.
I'd be quite happy to do a year on $42K+ allowances on twins, but agree that it would not pay the mortgage or the lifestyle to which the family have become accustomed.
It is problematic that recovering the amount you spent on training and living at the same time is going to be hard, unless you have a benefactor. Or you have already made your money and decided to spend the $90K and chuck in your higher paying job (whcih I can't seem to bring myself to do).
Simple labour economics - supply and demand.
B.1Classifications and minimum salaries
B.1.1Aircraft classification and minimum salaries
[B.1.1 substituted by PR997787 from 31May10; varied by PR997933, PR503362 from 01Nov10; PR509077, PR522908ppc 01Jul12]
Full-time pilots employed by an airline operation or a general aviation employer must be paid at least the following minimum annual salaries:
Minimum salary per annum
$
Captain
First Officers
Second Pilots
Single engine UTBNI 1360 kgFirst Officers
Second Pilots
36,734
31,532
Single engine 1360 kg-3359 kg31,532
38,295
31,532
Single engine 3360 kg & above31,532
44,476
34,717
Multi engine UTBNI 3360 kg34,717
42,772
33,367
33,367
Last edited by PaulDamian; 27th Jul 2012 at 05:14.
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So the lawyer gets paid a lot less than the pilot.
Recently someone sent me a thing called the Ideal Job Triangle. One corner was labelled Fun, one was labelled Well Paid and the remaining corner was labelled Legal. The caption was 'you can only choose two.'
Unfortunately it's often the case.
First they pay to fly ...
Then they fly for free
Then they get paid to fly
Then they try to work out how to get paid without flying
Poor fellow this industry, the humble scenic flight pilot who works hard all day, puts up with tourists and flys over tiger cournty should be getting 100K + but it is often this job that first attracts the freebie wannabees.
Then they fly for free
Then they get paid to fly
Then they try to work out how to get paid without flying
Poor fellow this industry, the humble scenic flight pilot who works hard all day, puts up with tourists and flys over tiger cournty should be getting 100K + but it is often this job that first attracts the freebie wannabees.
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Fixed wing - You work for the smallest operator flying for almost free, in the smallest of planes, the most under-maintained, trying to keep yourself alive on minimum equipment, then work your way up to the bottom of the rung twin, a better twin, a turbine twin maybe and in the end if you are lucky you get to fly a super-safe and reliable airliner.
Rotary - You start in a nice little R44 doing joy flights flying for free, you work your way up to a Squirrel, you then get endorsed for this that and everything, move into high risk jobs, mustering, sling loads, fire fighting etc, then when you have enough hours, you get your most dangerous job flying full IFR off-shore to oil rigs in the most demanding of conditions.
Or, you join the military as a pilot and get shot at, flying fixed or rotary wing, the enemy doesn't care.
Who wants to be a pilot?
Rotary - You start in a nice little R44 doing joy flights flying for free, you work your way up to a Squirrel, you then get endorsed for this that and everything, move into high risk jobs, mustering, sling loads, fire fighting etc, then when you have enough hours, you get your most dangerous job flying full IFR off-shore to oil rigs in the most demanding of conditions.
Or, you join the military as a pilot and get shot at, flying fixed or rotary wing, the enemy doesn't care.
Who wants to be a pilot?
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RE: Worrals
I know of a girl who traded sex for a job. 18 years old and flying a chieftain PIC. The more action she gave the chief pilot the more flight she got! But word definitely has gotten around, even in the 24 months since she first got employed.
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"Fixed wing - You work for the smallest operator flying for almost free, in the smallest of planes, the most under-maintained, trying to keep yourself alive on minimum equipment, then work your way up to the bottom of the rung twin, a better twin, a turbine twin maybe and in the end if you are lucky you get to fly a super-safe and reliable airliner."
Thats literally the truth.
Thats literally the truth.
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Ha! That's nothing: When I was the Tugmaster at the gliding club some Bozo rang me and said that he wanted to fly the Tug for us so as he could "knock up some hours for his CPL". He said that as he didn't have a CPL yet that he would only charge us $5 per hour for his services! 
I wonder who he works for now?
I wonder who he works for now?
I have only accepted the minimum wages in the past because it is legal and nothing done wrong by the employer for offering it.
The union wouldn't help you because you weren't a member. You can still pursue legal action against the employers for the wages they withheld from you, though.
Working for Free!
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It has been brought to my attention for a flying job advertised within Australia,
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It has been brought to my attention for a flying job advertised within Australia,
He then coughs up another 20 grand or more to buy himself a right hand seat slot in an Asian airline via Eagle Jet in USA or similar. No pay of course. Six months later he has 300 hours on the 737/A320 and is offered a full time job with pay in the RH seat having proved he isn't a nutter. Six years later with 4-5000 hours on the Airbus or 737 he will be upgraded to captain. From there on he is home and hosed.
Never happen in Australia because of the surfeit of spare pilots doing instructor courses on a C152 after CPL. Six years later he will be a grade one with 2500 hours as an instructor if he gets the job and his compatriot in Indonesia is a 737 captain. It is a no brainer if you have the money to spare.
Whether you fly for free in a Cessna 172/210 in Australian general aviation to get ahead of the mob or fly for free in an airliner in Indonesia to get ahead of the mob, what's the difference in principle. I don't agree with the principle but take it or leave it.
Last edited by Centaurus; 27th Jul 2012 at 11:36.
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Did any of the applicants offer sexual favours to the recruiter? That's also pretty standard in entertainment.
