Working for Free!
If you can't fly for free what are 200 hour people supposed to do?
Are we arguing here that it is OK to sweep the hangar and clean aeroplanes for free but not to fly for free?
Is it OK for a LAME to work as a engineer and fly for free to get hours?
What about doing other associated paid work for the owner and flying for free?
Problem with this whole issue that there is always someone who is willing to do it. So you can take the moral high ground and refuse to work for free or less than award, but you will be sitting on the sidelines watching someone else applying for good jobs because they did it for free or cheap.
Knew of a guy who had a very successful business and PAID an owner to fly his plane in commercial ops...
Are we arguing here that it is OK to sweep the hangar and clean aeroplanes for free but not to fly for free?
Is it OK for a LAME to work as a engineer and fly for free to get hours?
What about doing other associated paid work for the owner and flying for free?
Problem with this whole issue that there is always someone who is willing to do it. So you can take the moral high ground and refuse to work for free or less than award, but you will be sitting on the sidelines watching someone else applying for good jobs because they did it for free or cheap.
Knew of a guy who had a very successful business and PAID an owner to fly his plane in commercial ops...
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Are we arguing here that it is OK to sweep the hangar and clean aeroplanes for free but not to fly for free?
Knew of a guy who had a very successful business and PAID an owner to fly his plane in commercial ops...
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Neville flying commercial activities for free is bad.
I will happily fly a privately owned aircraft, on the owners behalf to get a 50hrly for free. The aircraft has nothing to do with any commercial operators.
If the company I sweep the hangar for asks me to fly a charter for them and doesn't want to pay me to do it, then its bad.
That's a commercial activity and a pilot should be getting paid at minimum the pilots award to do it.
I will happily fly a privately owned aircraft, on the owners behalf to get a 50hrly for free. The aircraft has nothing to do with any commercial operators.
If the company I sweep the hangar for asks me to fly a charter for them and doesn't want to pay me to do it, then its bad.
That's a commercial activity and a pilot should be getting paid at minimum the pilots award to do it.
Last edited by NIK320; 6th Aug 2012 at 01:36.
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Hypothetical...
If I may play devils advocate here for a second...
If, by agreeing to sweep the floors and clean the pool and service the photocopier blah blah blah, are you now not robbing someone else (who is not a pilot, and has no aspirations to be) of gainful employment as a cleaner/janitor/poolboy/photocopier tech?
Part of the requirements of service of community service orders imposed by the courts are that the work an offender provides is that they cannot be used in an area where it may rob someone else of gainful employment.
Just a thought.
And I have never gotten out of bed unless I know I'm gonna be paid! (Sometimes not even then!
)
If, by agreeing to sweep the floors and clean the pool and service the photocopier blah blah blah, are you now not robbing someone else (who is not a pilot, and has no aspirations to be) of gainful employment as a cleaner/janitor/poolboy/photocopier tech?
Part of the requirements of service of community service orders imposed by the courts are that the work an offender provides is that they cannot be used in an area where it may rob someone else of gainful employment.
Just a thought.
And I have never gotten out of bed unless I know I'm gonna be paid! (Sometimes not even then!
)
If you are turning up to a work place and performing activities which contribute to the business so at the end of the day the business makes money, why shouldn't you be rewarded financially for your efforts?
What other line of work would you get out of bed for in the morning, spend 9 hrs at and not get paid for?
What other line of work would you get out of bed for in the morning, spend 9 hrs at and not get paid for?
I should have made the point (in fact earlier I did make the point, but some people can't read my poor English, it seems) that whatever the activity, it should be a paid activity. At sweeper/cleaner/gofer level it will probably only pay about the same hourly rate as a job flipping burgers at Maccas, but being in the hangar puts you close to the action, should a pilot quit, or extra flying come in.
From the employer's angle, it is a good way to suss out whether this wannabe is worth the risk before turning a relative unknown loose in a light aeroplane with his valuable customers. Nothing wrong with that, as long as the operator pays the Award once actual flying duties commence.
Many years ago, a famous company called Connellans operated a variety of Beech and Heron aircraft out of Alice Springs. Long before the concept of air conditioning, so it was tough out there back then. Even the flies were bigger and badder. To get a start there you normally learned to fly with them while you worked as a bag snatcher then graduated to the Heron as a radio operator in the air and loader on the ground. This apprenticeship took a couple of years, then you got a gig in the Beech and moved up to the left seat of the Heron and eventually out to a real airline job.
I have some experience of the Ice Pilot thing and noted in the recent TV series that their guys start in similar fashion, for the very good reason the operator can't afford to put unknown quantities into aircraft as demanding as a C46 or DC3 in Arctic flying conditions. But for those that cracked a window seat - definitely an experience worth all the crap to get there. Those that were bypassed - who knows why? Bad attitude? Lazy? Couldn't even drive the forklift competently? TV treatment does not always give the full picture.
From the employer's angle, it is a good way to suss out whether this wannabe is worth the risk before turning a relative unknown loose in a light aeroplane with his valuable customers. Nothing wrong with that, as long as the operator pays the Award once actual flying duties commence.
Many years ago, a famous company called Connellans operated a variety of Beech and Heron aircraft out of Alice Springs. Long before the concept of air conditioning, so it was tough out there back then. Even the flies were bigger and badder. To get a start there you normally learned to fly with them while you worked as a bag snatcher then graduated to the Heron as a radio operator in the air and loader on the ground. This apprenticeship took a couple of years, then you got a gig in the Beech and moved up to the left seat of the Heron and eventually out to a real airline job.
I have some experience of the Ice Pilot thing and noted in the recent TV series that their guys start in similar fashion, for the very good reason the operator can't afford to put unknown quantities into aircraft as demanding as a C46 or DC3 in Arctic flying conditions. But for those that cracked a window seat - definitely an experience worth all the crap to get there. Those that were bypassed - who knows why? Bad attitude? Lazy? Couldn't even drive the forklift competently? TV treatment does not always give the full picture.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 6th Aug 2012 at 03:06.
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Still devils advocate...
In a debate like this, I am reminded of this little story -
The Story: The Gorilla Story
This story starts with a cage containing five gorillas and a large bunch of bananas
hanging above some stairs in the center of the cage. Before long, a gorilla goes to
the stairs and starts to climb toward the bananas. As soon as he touches the stairs,
all the gorillas are sprayed with cold water. After a while, another gorilla makes an
attempt and gets the same result—all the gorillas are sprayed with cold water.
Every time a gorilla attempts to retrieve the bananas, the others are sprayed.
Eventually, they quit trying and leave the bananas alone.
One of the original gorillas is removed from the cage and replaced with a new one.
The new gorilla sees the bananas and starts to climb the stairs. To his horror, all the
other gorillas attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries
to climb the stairs he will be assaulted. Next, the second of the original five gorillas
is replaced with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The
previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm.
Next the third original gorilla is replaced with a new one. The new one goes for the
stairs and is attacked as well. Two of the four gorillas that beat him have no idea
why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the
beating of the newest gorilla.
After the fourth and fifth original gorillas have been replaced, all the gorillas that
were sprayed with cold water are gone. Nevertheless, no gorilla will ever again
approach the stairs. Why not?
“Because that’s the way it has always been done.”
Yes, many the pilot has started out sweeping the floor and making the coffee, but also many the pilot at hours where they are not yet to be trusted with the heady delights of a C210 were given thier head in massive 4 engined bombers and set off over Europe to service the war.
I'm trying to draw a parallel on just because that's how it's been in the past, doesn't mean that's how it should be now.
At the risk of drawing a sexist rain of fire (those who read carefully will see that it's not a rant one way or the other), I ceased watching Ice Pilots when a particular episode was following the story of some guy who wanted to fly, loading planes, cleaning, driving etc etc for 6 months to be passed over for someone who had just turned up that week, who had not loaded a single plane for that company, with less experience than the gofer, be given a right hand seat with the owner owing soley to the virtue of gender (she was young and hot, IMHO). I don't know how much TV editing had to do, cos I'm sure there was more to it than that, but that how the story was played out in that episode.
The Story: The Gorilla Story
This story starts with a cage containing five gorillas and a large bunch of bananas
hanging above some stairs in the center of the cage. Before long, a gorilla goes to
the stairs and starts to climb toward the bananas. As soon as he touches the stairs,
all the gorillas are sprayed with cold water. After a while, another gorilla makes an
attempt and gets the same result—all the gorillas are sprayed with cold water.
Every time a gorilla attempts to retrieve the bananas, the others are sprayed.
Eventually, they quit trying and leave the bananas alone.
One of the original gorillas is removed from the cage and replaced with a new one.
The new gorilla sees the bananas and starts to climb the stairs. To his horror, all the
other gorillas attack him. After another attempt and attack, he knows that if he tries
to climb the stairs he will be assaulted. Next, the second of the original five gorillas
is replaced with a new one. The newcomer goes to the stairs and is attacked. The
previous newcomer takes part in the punishment with enthusiasm.
Next the third original gorilla is replaced with a new one. The new one goes for the
stairs and is attacked as well. Two of the four gorillas that beat him have no idea
why they were not permitted to climb the stairs or why they are participating in the
beating of the newest gorilla.
After the fourth and fifth original gorillas have been replaced, all the gorillas that
were sprayed with cold water are gone. Nevertheless, no gorilla will ever again
approach the stairs. Why not?
“Because that’s the way it has always been done.”
Yes, many the pilot has started out sweeping the floor and making the coffee, but also many the pilot at hours where they are not yet to be trusted with the heady delights of a C210 were given thier head in massive 4 engined bombers and set off over Europe to service the war.
I'm trying to draw a parallel on just because that's how it's been in the past, doesn't mean that's how it should be now.
At the risk of drawing a sexist rain of fire (those who read carefully will see that it's not a rant one way or the other), I ceased watching Ice Pilots when a particular episode was following the story of some guy who wanted to fly, loading planes, cleaning, driving etc etc for 6 months to be passed over for someone who had just turned up that week, who had not loaded a single plane for that company, with less experience than the gofer, be given a right hand seat with the owner owing soley to the virtue of gender (she was young and hot, IMHO). I don't know how much TV editing had to do, cos I'm sure there was more to it than that, but that how the story was played out in that episode.
If you are turning up to a work place and performing activities which contribute to the business so at the end of the day the business makes money, why shouldn't you be rewarded financially for your efforts?
What other line of work would you get out of bed for in the morning, spend 9 hrs at and not get paid for?
What other line of work would you get out of bed for in the morning, spend 9 hrs at and not get paid for?
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Is this some sort of joke? I paid $80k for a CPL. I aint sweeping no floors.
I personally wouldn't mind, as long as I'm getting paid for it of course
Quote:
I paid $80k for a CPL. I aint sweeping no floors.
Thats fine, dont get a job then.
I paid $80k for a CPL. I aint sweeping no floors.
Thats fine, dont get a job then.
$80k for a CPL. Is that average? 
Wow.
Wow.
Last edited by TOUCH-AND-GO; 6th Aug 2012 at 05:08.
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rmcdonal,
Yes, a good point, and I'm not suggesting that's the way it should be, but that practice did continue after the war. I have just finished reading Centaurus' book (a good read, and available in PDF format, go buy it!) and that's pretty much how he got started.
But this situation should change. If I want to work in a nuclear laborotory and be a physicist, I don't have to start out cleaning out the spent fuel containment pond to show I'm committed to the company! If I want to work as an air traffic controller, I don't have to spend 6 months after I've finished my training making coffee and cleaning the office so I'm in the right place at the right time so I can help out (paid help!) when someone else is sick. And yes, going back to the waterslide tester theory, these are both jobs that people WANT to do, like flying.
Yes, a good point, and I'm not suggesting that's the way it should be, but that practice did continue after the war. I have just finished reading Centaurus' book (a good read, and available in PDF format, go buy it!) and that's pretty much how he got started.
But this situation should change. If I want to work in a nuclear laborotory and be a physicist, I don't have to start out cleaning out the spent fuel containment pond to show I'm committed to the company! If I want to work as an air traffic controller, I don't have to spend 6 months after I've finished my training making coffee and cleaning the office so I'm in the right place at the right time so I can help out (paid help!) when someone else is sick. And yes, going back to the waterslide tester theory, these are both jobs that people WANT to do, like flying.
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Once you do make it to a lab you can expect an entry level job, not chief physicist.
I have spent many hours on the hot tarmac washing airplanes and vaccuuming the office. I am sure it did wonders for my attitude, but I fail to see how these cleaning activities made me a more proficent aviator!
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No you shouldn't as these jobs are highly competitive and always in short supply.
What you should expect is to have to go and convince an employer to employ you, not expect them to just because you hold a CPL.
So who should be cleaning the aircraft? Should GA companies with pilots sitting idle employ cleaners to come in and clean their aircraft? Then I suppose they could increase the cost of the flights to pay for this probably reducing the amount of work they get thereby reducing their need for pilots. Or they can just use the human resource they have sitting idle and get you to do it.
Even now when I put a PA31 or Aerostar to bed after using it, I clean it out, give it a quick vaccuum and give the windshield a polish. But there's plenty of other things I have done that are not related to the actual flying of aircraft that had to be done just to impress someone.
As for cleaning the bosses car: Yup there are some people who will take advantage
You bet ya backside people. You fly it you clean it. Have an old GA aircraft looking as neat as you can for the business and the customer. Part and parcel of a paid flying job. Except the airlines! Contractors do that. And yes they are paid!
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Just like after I have finished all my training in aviation, I should expect an entry level job flying, not getting a job as the chief pilot! Also, not an entry level job washing the managers car (which is what I did, and was paid for when I was young and stupid!).
Yes, many the pilot has started out sweeping the floor and making the coffee, but also many the pilot at hours where they are not yet to be trusted with the heady delights of a C210 were given thier head in massive 4 engined bombers and set off over Europe to service the war.
Only if they can keep up with the same training schedule as the ADF guys and get the same result if they can't meet the standard. Scrapped off course. The difference with the ADF is Daddy can't cough up more money to keep them in if they screw up their second remedial flight.
Last edited by MakeItHappenCaptain; 6th Aug 2012 at 17:20.
QUOTE: Aren't ADF pilots nowadays at the helm of PC9's and hawks with a few hundred hours? I don't have the benefit of experience like some people here do but I would think that if their civil counterparts can't be trusted with a clapped out c210 at those hours then perhaps something is wrong with the quality of training and testing.
No not training.
Attitude + Ability = Performance
No not training.
Attitude + Ability = Performance
Last edited by triathlon; 6th Aug 2012 at 22:02.
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Isn't the ADF recruitment process pretty tough, too? They get a lot of applicants and can afford to be really choosy.
There's no a actual competency test you have to do before undertaking a CPL, theoretically anyone with the money (or Daddy's money)can do one.
There's no a actual competency test you have to do before undertaking a CPL, theoretically anyone with the money (or Daddy's money
)can do one.
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 6th Aug 2012 at 21:55.