Working for Free!
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Centaurus, an excellent post that highlights the problems facing an aspiring pilot today who is deciding where to spend their dollar.
The industry is changing rapidly, the old paradigms are fading. I suspect that it will not be very long before the supply of airline pilots in Australia comes from cadet schemes. The supply of pilots is decreasing. Their may be an over-supply today, although even there I think there may be a shortage of experienced pilots in the general aviation ranks.
The manufacturers are stating that there will be a shortage of pilots in the future. Student numbers are falling around the world but demand for experienced pilots is on the increase but there is also an increasing demand for pilots to already have the endorsements required and time on type, even in the lower ranks of GA employers let alone the turbine operators.
It is these pressures that are driving the increase of pay-to-fly overseas and it will happen in Australia. Until it does, expect to see an increase in people offering to fly for free.
The industry is changing rapidly, the old paradigms are fading. I suspect that it will not be very long before the supply of airline pilots in Australia comes from cadet schemes. The supply of pilots is decreasing. Their may be an over-supply today, although even there I think there may be a shortage of experienced pilots in the general aviation ranks.
The manufacturers are stating that there will be a shortage of pilots in the future. Student numbers are falling around the world but demand for experienced pilots is on the increase but there is also an increasing demand for pilots to already have the endorsements required and time on type, even in the lower ranks of GA employers let alone the turbine operators.
It is these pressures that are driving the increase of pay-to-fly overseas and it will happen in Australia. Until it does, expect to see an increase in people offering to fly for free.
Last edited by PLovett; 27th Jul 2012 at 13:23.
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Not-For-Profit vs For Profit; Fly For Free or Bring Home Some Bacon?
I agree wholeheartedly that no commercial pilot should fly for free for a business. I do not cast stones however at a pilot who offers his or her services for free to true not-for-profit organisations.
If, for example, a skydiving club is truly a club and they are not making any profit then I believe that it is acceptable for a pilot to participate as a member of the club and fly for free. If however anybody in that organisation is making money (ie skydiving instructors, aircraft owners etc) then the pilot should be making money (even if it is only in accordance with the legal minimum - the Award).
Towing gliders on the side; same deal: if nobody is making money then fine, volunteer but if anybody else is cashing up then the pilot is a scab for working for free.
FRQ CB
If, for example, a skydiving club is truly a club and they are not making any profit then I believe that it is acceptable for a pilot to participate as a member of the club and fly for free. If however anybody in that organisation is making money (ie skydiving instructors, aircraft owners etc) then the pilot should be making money (even if it is only in accordance with the legal minimum - the Award).
Towing gliders on the side; same deal: if nobody is making money then fine, volunteer but if anybody else is cashing up then the pilot is a scab for working for free.
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Needless to say though that within a couple of days a lowlife pilot with very little self worth and self respect will happily put up with those conditions for the hours and this is what most grinds my gears.
Some ratbag companies don't pay pilots at all during ground school and induction. Hopefuls rock up for this 'free' training, live locally at their own expense, then go on hold for a job that may never eventuate. And it's not just youngsters falling for this exploitation - some silly old buggers who should know better fall for it, too. One would at least expect the company to stump up for accommodation and meals. It's not as if they are offering training on the space shuttle; usually it's just a clapped-out GA type or something with a limited job market.
Any company that is this cheapskate is NOT doing proper maintenance either. Caveat emptor.
Any company that is this cheapskate is NOT doing proper maintenance either. Caveat emptor.
Last edited by Mach E Avelli; 29th Jul 2012 at 23:05.
aeropelican - it would have worked better if you had taken the job but documented everything and prosecuted the employer (with the AFAP's lawyers) for the full amount of cash after, say, six months. 
... might have taught them a lesson
... might have taught them a lesson
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You guys make me smile
Mummy buys you a PlayStation at age 5, a mobile phone at 10, motorbike at 12 & a car at 17. Mummy keeps wiping your arse & washing your clothes while you work for peanuts. Back at the ranch, a pilots wage continues to fall in real terms, second divorce leaving a trail of financial and relationship carnage with kids & ex.
Then there's experimental aviation where you can build a plane for less than mummy forked out for you job, hell, if you've got half a brain you could buy a certified plane for half list price, fly on your own terms, sh!t! Might even be fun again........
Be a pilot for a living? You can have that
Mummy buys you a PlayStation at age 5, a mobile phone at 10, motorbike at 12 & a car at 17. Mummy keeps wiping your arse & washing your clothes while you work for peanuts. Back at the ranch, a pilots wage continues to fall in real terms, second divorce leaving a trail of financial and relationship carnage with kids & ex.
Then there's experimental aviation where you can build a plane for less than mummy forked out for you job, hell, if you've got half a brain you could buy a certified plane for half list price, fly on your own terms, sh!t! Might even be fun again........
Be a pilot for a living? You can have that
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I've never known of an industry where younger ones entering the profession are ruining it not only for themselves, but for those us trying to succeed.
Ranga and Trojan, didn't you both go and get CPLs? And now sit on he sidelines throwing rocks cos it was all too hard? How much does your weekend PA68 job pay Trojan? Or do you do it for the love and thus feed the problem?
The good aviation jobs are out there, you just have to look harder. FY just gone worked 400hrs, had every weekend except 2 off, every public holiday off, 135k net. Not an airline.
And I do still love flying, so much so I hire my namesake about once month and go for a tool around.
Mach E Avelli,
I think those companies are called airlines these days.
j3
P.S. Hold Short, you really are a pissant.
The good aviation jobs are out there, you just have to look harder. FY just gone worked 400hrs, had every weekend except 2 off, every public holiday off, 135k net. Not an airline.
And I do still love flying, so much so I hire my namesake about once month and go for a tool around.
Mach E Avelli,
I think those companies are called airlines these days.
j3
P.S. Hold Short, you really are a pissant.
Last edited by j3pipercub; 30th Jul 2012 at 08:42.
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The most compelling of reasons for airline companies to pay their staff during training and also for type rating is the quality of product. An organisation that renumerates pilots from the commencment of employment ensures that there are minimal financial distractions during a time when full focus is required to learn and pass a check.
Companies that don't pay pilots during training (and for type rating) telegraph the message that the welfare of their staff is secondary to profit. However, it is also a simple minded approach because as a result, the quality of the training is potentially degraded if there are financial worries held by the trainees. Low quality training = low quality operation.
Simply from a resource management perspective it makes sense to pay and pay well from Day 1. This approach would at least ensure that trainees are afforded a minimum of stress and distraction at a critical time and also would serve to attract a higher calibre of candidate.
Companies that don't pay pilots during training (and for type rating) telegraph the message that the welfare of their staff is secondary to profit. However, it is also a simple minded approach because as a result, the quality of the training is potentially degraded if there are financial worries held by the trainees. Low quality training = low quality operation.
Simply from a resource management perspective it makes sense to pay and pay well from Day 1. This approach would at least ensure that trainees are afforded a minimum of stress and distraction at a critical time and also would serve to attract a higher calibre of candidate.
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J3, point I'm trying to make: I got a CPL at the arse end of 89' saw the way pilots behaved toward each other & decided piloting wasn't for me. Didn't fly for ten years, got back on the bike, worked commercially, realised that things were probably worse than my original decision early 90's. I had plenty of work available to me & I'm talking ME-IFR, night. I went down another track, earn't pretty good money and now fly on my terms, NOT Alan Joyce's.
You are working in a very volatile market. Your $135 gorillas could disappear tomorrow & I think you know it. Mix that with the latest generation to enter the workplace (my previous post) and the future for your industry doesn't look particularly bright.
Back to my point, nobody has me by the balls, not Joyce, not my present employer. If the show ended tomorrow, I'll be right. But that's from being patient & putting in a few hard yards.
I have a daughter that wants to fly, I continually say to her. Get another qualification first (which she is doing). Don't ever give anybody power over your future. Don't let some other bastard write your life story. Write it yourself.
You are working in a very volatile market. Your $135 gorillas could disappear tomorrow & I think you know it. Mix that with the latest generation to enter the workplace (my previous post) and the future for your industry doesn't look particularly bright.
Back to my point, nobody has me by the balls, not Joyce, not my present employer. If the show ended tomorrow, I'll be right. But that's from being patient & putting in a few hard yards.
I have a daughter that wants to fly, I continually say to her. Get another qualification first (which she is doing). Don't ever give anybody power over your future. Don't let some other bastard write your life story. Write it yourself.
Sorry Jack! No job, in any Industry is perfectly secure. As far as volatile is concerned, I traded glamour for one of the most secure aviation jobs around (I think). If I get made redundant, I'd be worried about your job also, don't ATCOs need pilots to paint circles with at Maleny?
It just amuses me that guys who got out of the Industry for their own reasons repeatedly come on here and spout how we are all welcome to it. Reeks of Confirmation Bias.
It just amuses me that guys who got out of the Industry for their own reasons repeatedly come on here and spout how we are all welcome to it. Reeks of Confirmation Bias.
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As I said J, if the show stops tomorrow I'll be right. Re-inforcing, people need to write their own story not let arseholes like Joyce write it. Don't worry about my job mate, I'll be alright
And just out of interest, the last ATC's made redundant was a rort. Any of them that wanted a job could have had it the day after.
And just out of interest, the last ATC's made redundant was a rort. Any of them that wanted a job could have had it the day after.
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Meanwhile, back to the original point...
I assume that neither of you worked for free or sub-award pay? Everyone has their own path to lead, and it sounds like you both did well without prostituting yourselves.
True, particularly radio journalism. 
Between starry-eyed kids who'll work for free and Reality TV relics (who also effectively worked for free during the reality shows, which is why the networks love them) there's not a lot of room left.
I assume that neither of you worked for free or sub-award pay? Everyone has their own path to lead, and it sounds like you both did well without prostituting yourselves.
Try journalism!
Between starry-eyed kids who'll work for free and Reality TV relics (who also effectively worked for free during the reality shows, which is why the networks love them) there's not a lot of room left.
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Worrals, I NEVER worked for free, given that my first paid flying job was PJE.....go figure! It helped that the PJE employer was a decent bloke. I got a caravan endorsement from it BUT.....I gave him a commitment AND return of service.
How many times have I got to say it (not directed at you woralls). You can let scumbags like Joyce & Buchannan dictate your future or you can work for principaled people like Mr Borghetti. I have made heaps of travel decisions that have cost me more (present Oshkosh trip) based on travelling with arsehole operators (Joyce). I will more than happily provide anybody with my last 12 months travel history to back up my mouthing off.
Regain control bro's
How many times have I got to say it (not directed at you woralls). You can let scumbags like Joyce & Buchannan dictate your future or you can work for principaled people like Mr Borghetti. I have made heaps of travel decisions that have cost me more (present Oshkosh trip) based on travelling with arsehole operators (Joyce). I will more than happily provide anybody with my last 12 months travel history to back up my mouthing off.
Regain control bro's
It was a pretty tough job market post 1989, a lot of companies did the right thing paid award wages, paid ground schools, didn't charge for endorsements, didn't have paid ICUS schemes and honoured the good old seniority system.
But then the bottom feeders come along, let people fly for free, expect people to instruct for free, under quote legitimate operators with the pilot flying for free even on government charters, dodgy endorsements, the old pay for ICUS scheme, dodgy night freight etc. But what makes you laugh these guys fly for free but then bitch that your mob won't give them a job and you patiently explain that the boss is actually laying people off due to your mob undercutting everyone-genius then goes, "i am happy to work for less than the award!"
A number of airline pilots have worked for free, to get those valauble hours, a large number have also worked for below award wage to get those magic 500 twin hours. Happily name a number but then the thread would get locked!
But then the bottom feeders come along, let people fly for free, expect people to instruct for free, under quote legitimate operators with the pilot flying for free even on government charters, dodgy endorsements, the old pay for ICUS scheme, dodgy night freight etc. But what makes you laugh these guys fly for free but then bitch that your mob won't give them a job and you patiently explain that the boss is actually laying people off due to your mob undercutting everyone-genius then goes, "i am happy to work for less than the award!"
A number of airline pilots have worked for free, to get those valauble hours, a large number have also worked for below award wage to get those magic 500 twin hours. Happily name a number but then the thread would get locked!
It seems to me that there is are two rather discrete realities being depicted regarding GA down under.
Scenario 1) As said earlier in this thead, there seems to be a real desperation in GA right now with a glut of low time pilots willing to stab each other in the back and generally demean themselves in order to land that first job.
Scenario 2) In other threads, some chief pilots and employers are complaining about the latest Gen Y's refusing to accept ground positions even if they are traditionally the ones which lead to flying work because they have this expectation that once they get their CPL they have some divine right to be a commercial pilot and are not interested in anything else.
Would it be fair to say the true reality lies somewhere in between?
Scenario 1) As said earlier in this thead, there seems to be a real desperation in GA right now with a glut of low time pilots willing to stab each other in the back and generally demean themselves in order to land that first job.
Scenario 2) In other threads, some chief pilots and employers are complaining about the latest Gen Y's refusing to accept ground positions even if they are traditionally the ones which lead to flying work because they have this expectation that once they get their CPL they have some divine right to be a commercial pilot and are not interested in anything else.
Would it be fair to say the true reality lies somewhere in between?