Criminal convictions and becoming a pilot?
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Join Date: Jul 2012
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Criminal convictions and becoming a pilot?
Hi PPRuNe peeps,
I am and have always been hugely interested in a career in flying but after a couple of incedences of wayward youth type behaviour I now have the eternal pockmark of a criminal record; it is effectively concealed by the "Clean Slate Act". I was wondering if anyone amongst yourselves has a similar problem and if it has proven to be a major issue in attaining either your cpl or a job?
I would really like feedback from real pilots as the internet grapevine is so full of b.s.
I am and have always been hugely interested in a career in flying but after a couple of incedences of wayward youth type behaviour I now have the eternal pockmark of a criminal record; it is effectively concealed by the "Clean Slate Act". I was wondering if anyone amongst yourselves has a similar problem and if it has proven to be a major issue in attaining either your cpl or a job?
I would really like feedback from real pilots as the internet grapevine is so full of b.s.
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There really is no way of answering that accurately on a forum.
Having a criminal record does not immediately disqualify you from obtaining an ASIC (security clearance), it depends on what the offence was, what sentence you received and how long ago.
If your youthful act was committed as a juvenile you stand a better chance.
If an airline will still hire you with the conviction is something I do not know.
I have been told that airlines will avoid you like the plague, even for ground job but its just a rumour really.
Having a criminal record does not immediately disqualify you from obtaining an ASIC (security clearance), it depends on what the offence was, what sentence you received and how long ago.
If your youthful act was committed as a juvenile you stand a better chance.
If an airline will still hire you with the conviction is something I do not know.
I have been told that airlines will avoid you like the plague, even for ground job but its just a rumour really.
Last edited by NIK320; 3rd Jul 2012 at 10:47.
You're in Amsterdam, I don't think anything you read in the Dunnunda, Godzone and Pacific forum will be applicable to your predicament.
morno
morno
I would really like feedback from real pilots as the internet grapevine is so full of b.s.
... and you want someone who has concealed a possible conviction up to now (in order to protect their job) to come clean to an anonymous post on an internet forum??
http://www.pprune.org/interviews-job...ce-needed.html
http://www.pprune.org/interviews-job...n-problem.html
http://www.pprune.org/medical-health...onviction.html
http://www.pprune.org/2321940-post38.html
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Thanks NIK, hmmm the answer seems to be very subjective. The crimes were very minor and happened when I was 18-19 and did not involve drugs or violence. They can be concealed under the clean slate act and my record is not accessible to anyone else other than me unless granted permission so by me. I'm also wondering what the best route is to attain a atpl?
Floaterator,
Take competent legal advice, but looks to me like the this is the equivalent of a conviction being expunged, and you don't have to declare it in a question on the matter.
Tootle pip!!
Take competent legal advice, but looks to me like the this is the equivalent of a conviction being expunged, and you don't have to declare it in a question on the matter.
Tootle pip!!
Seven years is the American "Statute of Limitations." The "Clean Slate Act" is NZ. Australia has the "Spent Convictions Act" which comes into play after ten years. There are exclusions and conditions but they should be available on the net.
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Three aspects to criminal records in the aviation industry:
(i) Eligibility for an ASIC/AVID - this is a narrow test very specific to certain classes or levels of offences.
(ii) Employment pre-screening - Employers may seek a declaration and/or a national criminal records certificate regarding any charges or offences.
(iii) International Working/Transit Visas - Many countries, particuarly the US, have restrcitions on entry to the country as a result of criminal records, regardless of the time or various 'spent convictions' schemes. This may apply to your visa for entering the country for the purposes of transit as a commercial pilot or for training as a commercial pilot to get an endorsement. Might be very embarassing when they send you o/s only to discover you are coming straight home in the jump seat for some minor infraction you failed to mention at recruitment.
Note:
(i) The spent convictions scheme(s) only apply in certain states. Victoria has NO spent convictions scheme, however the Vic police have a 'disclosure policy' that is discretionary and not binding. The Federal scheme only applies to Federal offences. I understand that most schemes only apply to the jurisdiction where they are located - may not cover you for overseas visa purposes, so don't get a shock when the Federal police tell the US immigration that you had a finding of guilt for 1 gram of marajuana 18 years ago when you were 17.
(ii) Convicitons and non-convicitons - Usually, pre-employment, Visas and the ASIC process will feature questions and require declarations specific to whether you have been
- charged with an offence and the outcome
- been the subject of a finding of guilt. A finding of guilt can arise even though you were 'not convicted'. these days, a finding of guilt is treated the same as a conviction. In fact, some spent convictions legislation declares that findings fo guilt are criminal offences for the purposes of the Act.
(iii) Diversion - diversion is where you effectively avoid a hearing by admitting your wrong doing and apologising. Usually a first time event for a minor offence. This will usually be recorded with an outcome of 'discharged', rather than dismissed and it may be patently obvious that you were up for it, even though there was no finding of guilt.
(iv) offences that are not arising from the criminal/common law, summary offences act, crimes act or other 'criminal' laws can still be criminal offences that are requried to be declared. An offence prosecuted in court is a criminal offence, unless it is stated to be a civil penalty provision.
The following are still regarded as 'criminal' if prosecuted in court;
- tax offences
- traffic offences (speeding, drink driving, careless driving)
- offences to do with non-compliance with various other laws, such as the various Avaition Laws, Building Act, Domestic Building Contracts Act, Planning adn Environment Act, Transport offences (no ticket, feet on the seats etc...)
THE POLICE DO NOT HAVE TO PROSECUTE YOU for it to be CRIMINAL.
Ticketed pecuniary peanlties in the form of expiation notices (i.e. parking fines) are not generally regarded as crimes, as they do not require an admission of guilt opr appearance at Court, UNLESS you don;t pay and they issue a warrant in the PERIN Court - then you are up sh-t creek.
The golden rule is don't lie. If they later discover some minor infraction for dope, drunka disorderly, pissing in the street, telling a ticket inspector to 'f-off', then they will regard the failure to disclose or declare dishonest.
Signing a declaration where you know it is false, (i.e. a declaration of criminal history) is most likely to be a serious offence, unless protected by spent convictions legislation, IF it applies. Tell them the truth.
PM me for further info or a referral to a criminal lawyer.
I spec. in construction and industrial law, but can refer you to an expert in the area. Cheers, P
(i) Eligibility for an ASIC/AVID - this is a narrow test very specific to certain classes or levels of offences.
(ii) Employment pre-screening - Employers may seek a declaration and/or a national criminal records certificate regarding any charges or offences.
(iii) International Working/Transit Visas - Many countries, particuarly the US, have restrcitions on entry to the country as a result of criminal records, regardless of the time or various 'spent convictions' schemes. This may apply to your visa for entering the country for the purposes of transit as a commercial pilot or for training as a commercial pilot to get an endorsement. Might be very embarassing when they send you o/s only to discover you are coming straight home in the jump seat for some minor infraction you failed to mention at recruitment.
Note:
(i) The spent convictions scheme(s) only apply in certain states. Victoria has NO spent convictions scheme, however the Vic police have a 'disclosure policy' that is discretionary and not binding. The Federal scheme only applies to Federal offences. I understand that most schemes only apply to the jurisdiction where they are located - may not cover you for overseas visa purposes, so don't get a shock when the Federal police tell the US immigration that you had a finding of guilt for 1 gram of marajuana 18 years ago when you were 17.
(ii) Convicitons and non-convicitons - Usually, pre-employment, Visas and the ASIC process will feature questions and require declarations specific to whether you have been
- charged with an offence and the outcome
- been the subject of a finding of guilt. A finding of guilt can arise even though you were 'not convicted'. these days, a finding of guilt is treated the same as a conviction. In fact, some spent convictions legislation declares that findings fo guilt are criminal offences for the purposes of the Act.
(iii) Diversion - diversion is where you effectively avoid a hearing by admitting your wrong doing and apologising. Usually a first time event for a minor offence. This will usually be recorded with an outcome of 'discharged', rather than dismissed and it may be patently obvious that you were up for it, even though there was no finding of guilt.
(iv) offences that are not arising from the criminal/common law, summary offences act, crimes act or other 'criminal' laws can still be criminal offences that are requried to be declared. An offence prosecuted in court is a criminal offence, unless it is stated to be a civil penalty provision.
The following are still regarded as 'criminal' if prosecuted in court;
- tax offences
- traffic offences (speeding, drink driving, careless driving)
- offences to do with non-compliance with various other laws, such as the various Avaition Laws, Building Act, Domestic Building Contracts Act, Planning adn Environment Act, Transport offences (no ticket, feet on the seats etc...)
THE POLICE DO NOT HAVE TO PROSECUTE YOU for it to be CRIMINAL.
Ticketed pecuniary peanlties in the form of expiation notices (i.e. parking fines) are not generally regarded as crimes, as they do not require an admission of guilt opr appearance at Court, UNLESS you don;t pay and they issue a warrant in the PERIN Court - then you are up sh-t creek.
The golden rule is don't lie. If they later discover some minor infraction for dope, drunka disorderly, pissing in the street, telling a ticket inspector to 'f-off', then they will regard the failure to disclose or declare dishonest.
Signing a declaration where you know it is false, (i.e. a declaration of criminal history) is most likely to be a serious offence, unless protected by spent convictions legislation, IF it applies. Tell them the truth.
PM me for further info or a referral to a criminal lawyer.
I spec. in construction and industrial law, but can refer you to an expert in the area. Cheers, P
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In some cases, the employer may not want a declaration, only a National criminal recrods certificate issued by the police. This makes it easier as you don't have to declare events that may or may not be otherwise disclosed.
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Whilst I feel for the miss spent times of someones past this thread serves if nothing else as a reminder to those youngsters (or anyone for that matter) who thinks that being above the law may want to think twice before being a blight on society.
I am of the opinion that (& that's all it is) if you do wrong in the eyes of the law then you have that stigma with you the rest of yr life,period! That alone may be a good deterent to how some think/act.
I have worked hard all my life never been in trouble with the law (had one speeding fine many years ago which I proved they where wrong) & I am proud of that fact but it makes me cross to think that crims get away with murder figuratively speaking & expect to have society think that's acceptable & are allowed to roam again after a piddly weak incarceration!.
Heavens knows out judicial system is a joke we all know that!
100's get killed on the roads every year yet we (society/law makers) still allow for forgiveness!
In the case of Mr Meaners then I guess it's up to the individual employer but I'd hate to have any criminal past hanging over my head.
A bit off track I know but it's all tied up with the same thinking or lack thereof.
Wmk2
I am of the opinion that (& that's all it is) if you do wrong in the eyes of the law then you have that stigma with you the rest of yr life,period! That alone may be a good deterent to how some think/act.
I have worked hard all my life never been in trouble with the law (had one speeding fine many years ago which I proved they where wrong) & I am proud of that fact but it makes me cross to think that crims get away with murder figuratively speaking & expect to have society think that's acceptable & are allowed to roam again after a piddly weak incarceration!.
Heavens knows out judicial system is a joke we all know that!
100's get killed on the roads every year yet we (society/law makers) still allow for forgiveness!
In the case of Mr Meaners then I guess it's up to the individual employer but I'd hate to have any criminal past hanging over my head.
A bit off track I know but it's all tied up with the same thinking or lack thereof.
Wmk2
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Seven years is the American "Statute of Limitations." The "Clean Slate Act" is NZ. Australia has the "Spent Convictions Act" which comes into play after ten years. There are exclusions and conditions but they should be available on the net.
But, just because they are "spent" in your home state, this doesn't necessarily mean that they aren't on your BCI file and that you can therefore not declare them.
They won't be raised as priors in the event you are convicted of a further offence, but be careful signing a declaration that they don't exist. You need to check what the legislation says for the relevant jurisdiction.
What shouldn't happen is that they are revealed to the inquiry source.
Kaz
Moderator
The Clean Slate Act is New Zealand legislation so I asume floaterator, who is posting from the Netherlands, intends moving to New Zealand?? 
If so there is little point advising him/her of the situation which may exist in Australia? It is a pity (and a real frustration to the Mods) that users could not be a little more specific in their posts!!
If so there is little point advising him/her of the situation which may exist in Australia? It is a pity (and a real frustration to the Mods) that users could not be a little more specific in their posts!!
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I have a friend who assaulted a male in a road rage incident, fairly serious as my friend had significant training in martial arts. But with the right character references and a heap of persistence he obtained an ASIC. He had trouble renewing the ASIC each year for around 4 years, but since then has had no trouble. He started flying in 2006 and is now a S/O on the 777 for Virgin. I haven't any legal experience so can't help in that regard but the story above is accurate although vague. Good luck
False Economy,
Because of your friend's criminal record he would have had to apply direct to the secretary of the department for a discretionary ASIC. That process was time consuming and had to be repeated at each ASIC renewal. The department has since taken a more enlightened approach and has cleared the way for a discretionary ASIC to be approved much quicker so long as the applicant has nnot been convicted of any subsequent offences.
Because of your friend's criminal record he would have had to apply direct to the secretary of the department for a discretionary ASIC. That process was time consuming and had to be repeated at each ASIC renewal. The department has since taken a more enlightened approach and has cleared the way for a discretionary ASIC to be approved much quicker so long as the applicant has nnot been convicted of any subsequent offences.
