Barry Hempel Inquest

[aroa]

Dizzy....

So much BS and spin in the "corporate" plan it makes yr eyes go funny.
This is the bureaucratic way...lots of words (mostly meaningless) but I guess if the Albo thinks its all fair dinkum...so all is well with the world of aviation. I wish.
It reminds me of another lot of wordy crap called Model Litigant Directions, and you'll soon find out where that lot will take you.!! Nowhereland.

Someone mentioned jackboots and "professional" law enforcers with experience. Oh yeah..I had one of those and I doubt if he could have investigated his own willnots. No shining objective "investigation" there.!
Prior experience means versed in the verballing arts as well.
The only thing with any 'polish' WAS the jackboots.
Za Stalina.! Long (has) (out) live(ed) the CASA bureaucratic Soviet.

[Jabawocky]

And as the CASA FOI leaves the premises, they all look at each other and laugh. Their collective view is: CASA and the rules can go and get f*cked.

What should happen next, oh wise Chimbu?

Creamie

Well if that is what happened, the very next time they had reason to turn up, they remove the CP approval, they do a job on him like the Gator in Kunners. They just had to do something. They didn't.

This had been going on for years......yet one criminal posts an edited video on youtube, and lies about it, and a guy loses his career. No Justice is there?

[Creampuff]

[T]he very next time they had reason to turn up, they remove the CP approval, they do a job on him like the Gator in Kunners.

My next visit would have been far less friendly.

They just had to do something.

Indeed.

They didn't.

It is to be hoped the coroner will make some findings about what CASA could practicably have done in the circumstances, and whether CASA did that.

[Kharon]

The cricket pitch.

Chimbu Warrior 's post (#241) is a good snapshot of 'the way thing were'; which was, I agree most acceptable. It's getting things back to a workable relationship that's the head scratcher.

CP - And as the CASA FOI leaves the premises, they all look at each other and laugh.

Cream Puff – this is only partly true, any laughter is usually of the hysterical giggling variety found in survivors of some sort of trauma. IOSA and BARS audits are usually of great value and benefit to an operation and welcomed. Once it's over there is a sit down and things get sorted so to provide acceptable, safety oriented resolutions. Not so with the CASA version. There is usually some hilarity after the band aids have been applied to the operation, mostly over the silly, petty, pedantic, worthless changes made which are often illegal themselves or of no practical value whatsoever, delivered by someone not worthy of any respect.

CP - Their collective view is: CASA and the rules can go and get f*cked.

Cream Puff – clearly you hang out with the wrong people mate. Mostly the operator has an investment and a business to protect; they are very aware that it is extremely stupid to be operating 'in non compliance', just for the sake of insurance alone. It's getting to and staying in compliance that provides the "get stuffed' attitude; some versions of 'compliance' would make the angels weep and some versions of compliance can and do produce the odd chuckle, over a beer when it's all over. It's not the bloody awful regulations that are disrespected, but the ways they are manipulated and abused to suit that gets everyone's panties in a bunch.

In a healthy industry, you would expect the 'daily gripe' about 'the regulator', it's human nature. Same thing about the poor hidebound bugger who has the 'enforce' the regulatory framework; we can all agree that some of the regulations are a bit OTT, but risible or not, they are, until we change them – the law.

A thought – it's the 'application' of law that is interesting; the footy oval near us has recently had a sign installed (due rain) "Pitch closed" (by order etc.). The other day there were 4 kids kicking a ball about, away from the soft centre by the goal posts. Technically illegal – but, when you think it through, how is this to be treated.

[Creampuff]

Clearly you misunderstood the point of my post.

I was merely asking what the wise one’s suggested next strategy would be, if the ‘cup of coffee and strong chat’ method failed.

Mostly the operator has an investment and a business to protect; they are very aware that it is extremely stupid to be operating 'in non compliance', just for the sake of insurance alone.

Did that stop Hempel? Did that help Mr Lovell?

[Macroderma]

remember Ian Lovell

Chimbu and Creampuff are correct,

but none of these words or systems or views of morality or ethics protected Ian Lovell, when he climbed abord the Yak that day.

CASA knew that Hempel was a cowboy who had total disregard for rules or regulations

CASA knew that Hempel had been convicted for w*nking outside primary
schools

Did CASA know that Hempel was facing further similar charges related to getting his wedding tackle out for display in a public place near small children ??

CASA knew that Hempel did not hold a CPL

Was it CASA which pulled Hempel's CPL ????

or am I missing something here, maybe it was aliens from the planet of "Wickitt" who pulled Hempels CPL ???

CASA (and the wider world of aviation) knew that HEMPEL had a head injury.

how many other pilots, apart from Hempel, had over 100 recorded complaints lodged to CASA?

which bit of 'totally sustained, ongoing and systemic failure of regulatory processes" am I missing??

[Torres]

Creamie.

CASA knew Hemple was conducting flights of a commercial nature for which a fee was charged, whilst not the holder of a commercial pilot license and Class 1 Medical. CASA knew Hemple had a medical condition which should have precluded him flying at all.

"What should happen next, oh wise Chimbu?"

"I was merely asking what the wise one’s suggested next strategy would be, if the ‘cup of coffee and strong chat’ method failed."

You appear to be asking mere mortal plebs, none of whom have ever been employed in a regulatory role, what we think we should do?

A decade or so ago you were in that regulatory role. What precisely would you have done under simnilar circumstances?

I suspect Mr Hemple may have been guilty of a criminal offense and the matter should probably have been handled by the AFP on complaint by CASA, but I defer to your knowledge and wisdom?

Of course, all that does nothing to explain why CASA failed to take appropriate action against Hemple, including cancellation of all his pilot licenses.

[Jabawocky]

Cream Puff – this is only partly true, any laughter is usually of the hysterical giggling variety found in survivors of some sort of trauma. IOSA and BARS audits are usually of great value and benefit to an operation and welcomed. Once it's over there is a sit down and things get sorted so to provide acceptable, safety oriented resolutions. Not so with the CASA version. There is usually some hilarity after the band aids have been applied to the operation, mostly over the silly, petty, pedantic, worthless changes made which are often illegal themselves or of no practical value whatsoever, delivered by someone not worthy of any respect.

Interesting observations, just a slight thread drift if I may for a moment.

Once upon a time in a land not so far away one of the countries better engine shops had an audit on their new DAMP policy. The one copied directly from the CASA template. This had the names and details edited accordingly. They received 5, not 1, but 5 non conformances. And to say there was no clear way of the staff having a method of direct contact with the owner/manager. FFS his office is right beside the workshop, with a big glass window in between.

So yes, a visit from the CASA folk SHOULD ALWAYS be a proactive non BS and welcomed visit, with a clear aim to prevent any non compliances and to improve the industry overall. But when this guys asked if the CASA staff would be happy to sit with him and edit the document and print out one that satisfied them on the spot.......You can probably guess what followed.

So is it any wonder we have what we have today. Until the little Hitlers are weeded out of the organisation, all the good folk will forever be viewed with the same and appropriate level of contempt.

It is not hard to fix, it just takes time and effort.

[superdimona]

CASA knew that Hempel had been convicted for w*nking outside primary
schools

Did CASA know that Hempel was facing further similar charges related to getting his wedding tackle out for display in a public place near small children ??

What does that have to do with being able to operate an aircraft safely? You may as well suspend his driver's license for it at the same time, it has as much relevance.

[Creampuff]

You appear to be asking mere mortal plebs, none of whom have ever been employed in a regulatory role, what we think we should do?

But some of those mortal plebs have no hesitation in suggesting what CASA should and shouldn’t do. I was merely asking them what they thought CASA should do, in the scenario I presented.

Me as a regulator? There’s a scary thought! I reckon I’d just grab some local police or AFP, and arrest him when he’s taxiing for take-off, strapped to an aircraft with a fare paying pax.

[Sarcs]

Me as a regulator? There’s a scary thought! I reckon I’d just grab some local police or AFP, and arrest him when he’s taxiing for take-off, strapped to an aircraft with a fare paying pax.

Scary maybe? But given the responses in this thread your plan of action would be unanimously agreed on, so why didn't that happen?? Did Baza have his own version of PM Girrard's 'dirt file'?? If so how far up the food chain did the potential for blackmail go??

The canning of the potential CDPP prosecutions, how did that happen?? Either way these actions/inactions point to potential 3rd and possibly 4th party involvement.....yep there's a needle buried under that pile of pony pooh, but is there anyone with the balls to find it??

[Torres]

Me as a regulator? There’s a scary thought!

Yes, it was. But that is an entirely different chapter of history.

I reckon I’d just grab some local police or AFP, and arrest him when he’s taxiing for take-off, strapped to an aircraft with a fare paying pax.

Aside from the allegation that Barry was medically unfit to hold even a PPL and Class 2 medical, considering a number of CASA employees knew Barry was conducting fare paying flights prior to the accident flight, one wonders why CASA did not file a complaint with the AFP, especially as CASA employs what are supposedly qualified and experienced investigators?

The Coroners Report will make very interesting reading.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Me as a regulator? There’s a scary thought! I reckon I’d just grab some local police or AFP, and arrest him when he’s taxiing for take-off, strapped to an aircraft with a fare paying pax.

Same. It's a question of whether the officers had (or felt they had) the support of the organization to do that.
My guess would be no.
However, that's not saying CASA were the only people at fault. Primarily there was the pilot and secondarily, the people in his company that supported his unlawful actions.

Gotta say, I agree with superdimona.

[TunaBum]

Gotta say, I agree with superdimona.

Not sure I would. The moral character and judgement of pilots who are permitted to hold the lives of members of the unsuspecting public in their hands should be unblemished.

It's a question of trust. When you strap yourself into your passenger seat, you trust that the people at the pointy end are not criminals, but people of the highest moral character.

If I was given the choice of being flown by someone who was convicted of such offences (if that was the case) or by someone of higher moral standards - I know what I would choose.

The standard should be the same as a police officer who is permitted to carry a pistol and to use same when necessary. In both cases they are in control of a lethal weapon.

TB

[Frank Arouet]

All of which leads me to ask if he had an ASIC given his extra curricular activities. If he did, who issued it?

[blackhand]

which bit of 'totally sustained, ongoing and systemic failure of regulatory processes" am I missing??

Mmm you are rather a quick study Macroderma, several pages ago you purported to know nothing of Civil aviation, even to ask what a CPL was.
The regulators faults are several, but nothing like what you are suggesting.

I am looking through the applicable regs trying to work out why CASA did not take his PPL as well as his CPL. On the face of it there seems no reason, unless he has medical help to mask his ongoing epilepsy.

[Worrals in the wilds]

I take your point, but a car is also a lethal weapon in the wrong hands. IMO it's a different issue from what the inquest (and this thread) are about, albeit one affecting the same person.

As for the ASIC, I don't think that offence is on the no-go list unless it involved violence.
Fact Sheet: Aviation Security Identification Card (ASIC) - Obligation to Report Relevant Offences

[angry ant]

hempels sacking from Ansett

From memory, he turned up twice for work as an F/O on the Electra reeking of alcohol and was sent home in a cab, the third time , he was sacked. I also was on the Electra.

AA

[Macroderma]

CPL versus PPL

Blackhand,

my previous question about CPL was intended to be sarcastic, my apologies if I was a little abtruse.

my question really is, why would ill health lead to cancellation of a CPL, but not a PPL, don't they need the same standard of health and fitness?

Did the regulations shed any light?

[Metro man]

Quote:
CASA knew that Hempel had been convicted for w*nking outside primary
schools

Did CASA know that Hempel was facing further similar charges related to getting his wedding tackle out for display in a public place near small children ??
What does that have to do with being able to operate an aircraft safely? You may as well suspend his driver's license for it at the same time, it has as much relevance.

Hempel's barrister, Tony Glynn stated in court that Hempel was having psychiatric treatment. This was during his trial for w*nking outside Lourdes Hill College.

I think the psychiatric treatment rather than the actual nature of the offence caused alarm with CASA.