Barry Hempel Inquest
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Macroderm
Well I guess you were close but at 20 seconds into the video we have this photo capture as compared to Google Earth shot:
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Centro Shopping Centre at Springwood . . . .
the scenery certainly looks like the road and rail overpass at Yeerongpilly in Brisbane, doesn't it ?????
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Centro Shopping Centre at Springwood . . . .
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Frank
I might be able to help here. Excuse me if my tech references are not 100% accurate. It was NOT a recorder on any camera loaned but on the open mic - there are two buttons on right side of throttle (which is left is on left side), top button is open air waves, bottom button is intercom to pilot. Nothing on the stick. See Yak cockpit layout:
http://www.pdfonline.com/convert-pdf...52 Cockpit.zip
Something perplexing me is the matter of BH "not having broken wrists" condusive to such an UCFIT accident, but no mention of the passenger who, is "recorded" as saying things that were recorded.
Was this recorded on the camera loaned to him, or was he holding an open mic on the PTT in the rear stick which would suggest a AsA recording?
Was this recorded on the camera loaned to him, or was he holding an open mic on the PTT in the rear stick which would suggest a AsA recording?
http://www.pdfonline.com/convert-pdf...52 Cockpit.zip
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Keep diggin'
It's all there, all to play for;
One of the great gifts the classics don't always provide, is what you do with the truth, once you have it ?.
Holmes - "You will not apply my precept," he said, shaking his head. "How often have I said to you that when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth? We know that he did not come through the door, the window, or the chimney. We also know that he could not have been concealed in the room, as there is no concealment possible. When, then, did he come?"
The Sign of the Four, ch. 6 (1890)
The Sign of the Four, ch. 6 (1890)
Last edited by Kharon; 21st Jun 2012 at 07:59.
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Hindsight bias is a psychological effect that leads people to misinterpret the
conclusions of accident investigations. Often the first question people ask about the decision making leading up to an accident such as Columbia takes the form of: “why
did NASA continue flying the Shuttle with a known problem…?
The hindsight bias is a well reproduced research finding relevant to accident analysis and reactions to failure. Knowledge of outcome biases our judgment about the processes that led up to that outcome.
From Space shuttle Columbia accident report.
conclusions of accident investigations. Often the first question people ask about the decision making leading up to an accident such as Columbia takes the form of: “why
did NASA continue flying the Shuttle with a known problem…?
The hindsight bias is a well reproduced research finding relevant to accident analysis and reactions to failure. Knowledge of outcome biases our judgment about the processes that led up to that outcome.
From Space shuttle Columbia accident report.
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Don't feed the Troll.
A fact in itself is nothing. It is valuable only for the idea attached to it, or for the proof which it furnishes. Claude Bernard.
And Bollocks is always bollocks no matter from which Troll it spews. K 2012.
Don't feed the
Troll.
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Hindsight is not foresight. After an accident, we know all of the critical information and knowledge needed to understand what happened.
But that knowledge is not available to the participants before the fact. In
looking back we tend to oversimplify the situation the actual practitioners faced, and this tends to block our ability to see the deeper story behind the label human error.
But that knowledge is not available to the participants before the fact. In
looking back we tend to oversimplify the situation the actual practitioners faced, and this tends to block our ability to see the deeper story behind the label human error.
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Apologies to those who have seen this before cc PPRune.
A small token of what wasted effort people garner to evolve their Stolkholm syndrome in relation of a wasted organisation and the members of that clique.
Chaucer’smissing
‘LaddesTale’
Three fellowes wenten into a pubbe,
And gleefullye their hands did rubbe,
In expectation of revelrie,
For ‘twas the houre known as happye.
Greate botelles of wine did they quaffe,
And hadde a reallye good laffe.!
‘Till drunkennesse held full dominione,
For ‘twas two for the price of one.
Yet after wine and meade and sac,
Man must have a massive snack,
Great pasties from Cornwalle!
Scottishe egs round like a balle!
Great hammes, quail, ducke and geese!
They suck’d the bones and drank the grease!
(One fellowe stood all pale and wan,
for he was vegetarianne)
Yet man knoweth that gluttonie,
Stoketh the fyre of lecherie,
Upon three young wenches round and slye,
The fellowes cast a wanton eye.
One did approach, with drunkene winke:
“Ello darlin’, you fancy a drink?”,
Soon they caught them on their knee,
‘Twas like some grotesque puppettrie!
Such was the lewdness and debaucherie –
‘Twas like a sketch by Dick Emery!
(Except Dick Emery is not yet borne –
so such comparisonne may not be drawn).
But then the fellowes began to pale,
For quail are not the friend of ale!
And in their bellyes much confusion!
From their throats vile extrusion!
Stinking foule corruptionne!
Came spewinge forth from droolinge lippes,
The fetide stenche did fille the pubbe,
“Twas the very arse of Beelzebubbe!
Thrown they were, from the Horne and Trumpette,
In the street, no coyne, no strumpet.
Homeward bounde, must quicklie go,
To that ende – a donkey stole!
Their hands all with vomit greased,
(the donkey was not pleased,
and threw them into a ditche of ****e!)
They all agreed “What a brilliant night!”
A small token of what wasted effort people garner to evolve their Stolkholm syndrome in relation of a wasted organisation and the members of that clique.
Chaucer’smissing
‘LaddesTale’
Three fellowes wenten into a pubbe,
And gleefullye their hands did rubbe,
In expectation of revelrie,
For ‘twas the houre known as happye.
Greate botelles of wine did they quaffe,
And hadde a reallye good laffe.!
‘Till drunkennesse held full dominione,
For ‘twas two for the price of one.
Yet after wine and meade and sac,
Man must have a massive snack,
Great pasties from Cornwalle!
Scottishe egs round like a balle!
Great hammes, quail, ducke and geese!
They suck’d the bones and drank the grease!
(One fellowe stood all pale and wan,
for he was vegetarianne)
Yet man knoweth that gluttonie,
Stoketh the fyre of lecherie,
Upon three young wenches round and slye,
The fellowes cast a wanton eye.
One did approach, with drunkene winke:
“Ello darlin’, you fancy a drink?”,
Soon they caught them on their knee,
‘Twas like some grotesque puppettrie!
Such was the lewdness and debaucherie –
‘Twas like a sketch by Dick Emery!
(Except Dick Emery is not yet borne –
so such comparisonne may not be drawn).
But then the fellowes began to pale,
For quail are not the friend of ale!
And in their bellyes much confusion!
From their throats vile extrusion!
Stinking foule corruptionne!
Came spewinge forth from droolinge lippes,
The fetide stenche did fille the pubbe,
“Twas the very arse of Beelzebubbe!
Thrown they were, from the Horne and Trumpette,
In the street, no coyne, no strumpet.
Homeward bounde, must quicklie go,
To that ende – a donkey stole!
Their hands all with vomit greased,
(the donkey was not pleased,
and threw them into a ditche of ****e!)
They all agreed “What a brilliant night!”
It's a sad world when someone who proposes Cessnas should be treated the same as 747s gets taken seriously.
In a long discussion today, we were taking about exactly that, as being an increasing problem (one size fits all --- SMS/QAP da da da) regardless of the size of the disorganization ---- unlike, say, the US, Canada, NZ, where there is an escalation of requirements as the aircraft get bigger --- by and large we have one size fits all --- and the "New Rules" are making matters worse.
One of the nasties we have only just discovered in the recently amended Part 21 is that "CAR 35" modes and repairs ( which we have had for how many years???) are no prohibited.
Creamie,
Re-read may last post with slightly less per-prejudice, I don't believe you can use a regulation to create an exemption/variation/ concession against a provision of the Act ---- so, clearly, I can't step you through that one!!
Tootle pip!!
Last edited by LeadSled; 21st Jun 2012 at 10:43.
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Often the first question people ask about the decision making leading up to an accident such as Columbia takes the form of: “why did NASA continue flying the Shuttle with a known problem…?
There's hindsight and foresight. CASA had the foresight to restrict Hempel's license but apparently lacked the means (or will) to enforce that restriction. To me, the restriction of his license illustrates that they were aware of a problem, unlike the NASA people who in both cases knew of a number of seemingly unrelated issues that came together and caused the accidents. This was not an accident caused by a structural failure; in an old aircraft that would have been understandable and acceptance of that risk forms the main part of the disclaimer. This was an accident caused by wilful pilot error.
This guy shouldn't have been flying passengers, he was told that, prohibited from doing that, he did it anyway (repeatedly) and the regulator didn't, or couldn't stop him. That's a problem.
if Hempel did in fact train a whole generation pf pilots (including certain CASA staff), and was allowed to continue doing so AFTER he had his CPL cancelled, does this mean that all those certifications might actually be invalid?
Does this mean that there are a whole group of pilots
who might now not be licenced for what they think they should be ???
Hempel did in fact train a whole generation pf pilots (including certain CASA staff), and was allowed to continue doing so AFTER he had his CPL cancelled, does this mean that all those certifications might actually be invalid?Does this mean that there are a whole group of pilots
who might now not be licenced for what they think they should be ???
Take a close look at CASA v. RQAC, an interesting one.
Tootle pip!!
Oh Worrals although an extremely good rebuttal to Blackie's post of no consequence, you've broken rule 101..."Don't feed the troll"...especially when it's half past the mast of o'beer o'clock!
Now Blackie mate back under yonder bridge and like I said we'll wake you when it's all over! Since Frank chose to break into verse here's a lullaby to steady the shakes...and rattled nerves!!
....now sorry about the thread drift...where were we??
Now Blackie mate back under yonder bridge and like I said we'll wake you when it's all over! Since Frank chose to break into verse here's a lullaby to steady the shakes...and rattled nerves!!
Troll sat alone on his seat of stone,
And munched and mumbled a bare old bone;
For many a year he had gnawed it near,
For meat was hard to come by.
Done by! Gum by!
In a cave in the hills he dwelt alone,
And meat was hard to come by.
Up came Tom with his big boots on.
Said he to Troll: 'Pray, what is yon?
For it looks like the shin o' my nuncle Tim,
As should be a-lyin' in graveyard.
Caveyard! Paveyard!
This many a year has Tim been gone,
And I thought he were lyin' in graveyard.'
'My lad,' said Troll, 'this bone I stole.
But what be bones that lie in a hole?
Thy nuncle was dead as a lump o' lead,
Afore I found his shinbone.
Tinbone! Thinbone!
He can spare a share for a poor old troll,
For he don't need his shinbone.'
Said Tom: 'I don't see why the likes o' thee
Without axin' leave should go makin' free
With the shank or the shin o' my father's kin;
So hand the old bone over!
Rover! Trover!
Though dead he be, it belongs to he;
So hand the old bone over!'
'For a couple o' pins,' says Troll, and grins,
'I'll eat thee too, and gnaw thy shins.
A bit o' fresh meat will go down sweet!
I'll try my teeth on thee now.
Hee now! See now!
I'm tired o' gnawing old bones and skins;
I've a mind to dine on thee now.'
But just as he thought his dinner was caught,
He found his hands had hold of naught.
Before he could mind, Tom slipped behind
And gave him the boot to larn him.
Warn him! Darn him!
A bump o' the boot on the seat, Tom thought,
Would be the way to larn him.
But harder than stone is the flesh and bone
Of a troll that sits in the hills alone.
As well set your boot to the mountain's root,
For the seat of a troll don't feel it.
Peel it! Heal it!
Old Troll laughed, when he heard Tom groan,
And he knew his toes could feel it.
Tom's leg is game, since home he came,
And his bootless foot is lasting lame;
But Troll don't care, and he's still there
With the bone he boned from its owner.
Doner! Boner!
Troll's old seat is still the same,
And the bone he boned from its owner!
The Lord of the Rings
Rhyme of the Troll sung by Sam, The Fellowship of the Ring Book 1,
And munched and mumbled a bare old bone;
For many a year he had gnawed it near,
For meat was hard to come by.
Done by! Gum by!
In a cave in the hills he dwelt alone,
And meat was hard to come by.
Up came Tom with his big boots on.
Said he to Troll: 'Pray, what is yon?
For it looks like the shin o' my nuncle Tim,
As should be a-lyin' in graveyard.
Caveyard! Paveyard!
This many a year has Tim been gone,
And I thought he were lyin' in graveyard.'
'My lad,' said Troll, 'this bone I stole.
But what be bones that lie in a hole?
Thy nuncle was dead as a lump o' lead,
Afore I found his shinbone.
Tinbone! Thinbone!
He can spare a share for a poor old troll,
For he don't need his shinbone.'
Said Tom: 'I don't see why the likes o' thee
Without axin' leave should go makin' free
With the shank or the shin o' my father's kin;
So hand the old bone over!
Rover! Trover!
Though dead he be, it belongs to he;
So hand the old bone over!'
'For a couple o' pins,' says Troll, and grins,
'I'll eat thee too, and gnaw thy shins.
A bit o' fresh meat will go down sweet!
I'll try my teeth on thee now.
Hee now! See now!
I'm tired o' gnawing old bones and skins;
I've a mind to dine on thee now.'
But just as he thought his dinner was caught,
He found his hands had hold of naught.
Before he could mind, Tom slipped behind
And gave him the boot to larn him.
Warn him! Darn him!
A bump o' the boot on the seat, Tom thought,
Would be the way to larn him.
But harder than stone is the flesh and bone
Of a troll that sits in the hills alone.
As well set your boot to the mountain's root,
For the seat of a troll don't feel it.
Peel it! Heal it!
Old Troll laughed, when he heard Tom groan,
And he knew his toes could feel it.
Tom's leg is game, since home he came,
And his bootless foot is lasting lame;
But Troll don't care, and he's still there
With the bone he boned from its owner.
Doner! Boner!
Troll's old seat is still the same,
And the bone he boned from its owner!
The Lord of the Rings
Rhyme of the Troll sung by Sam, The Fellowship of the Ring Book 1,
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Oh Worrals although an extremely good rebuttal to Blackie's post of no consequence, you've broken rule 101..."Don't feed the troll"...especially when it's half past the mast of o'beer o'clock!
IMO Blackhand makes some good points that deserve discussion, particularly with respect to personal responsibility. If there was no paying customer or bystander involved I'd agree with most of them.
If people want to be idiots and kill themselves then that's their problem (BASE jumpers included). However, there was an unwitting customer who died through no fault of his own, and to me that's the fundamental difference.
So-and-so leaps off a building and his parachute fails? Care factor
. So-and-so falls on a teenage apprentice who was going to do his shopping and kills him? Different kettle of fish.
So-and-so charges a fee to take a tandem jumper and infers to that tandem jumper that the activity is both safe and legal, the coppers knew he was undertaking this activity and accepting paying customers, yet didn't arrest him and confiscate his parachute?
Anyway, if we're doing poetry (a sure sign that the bar should be closing soon, bet Tailwheel wishes he had bouncers
) I'll add this commentary from Eliot;Mistah Kurtz—he dead. A penny for the Old Guy
We are the hollow men
We are the stuffed men
Leaning together
Headpiece filled with straw.
Alas! Our dried voices, when
We whisper together
Are quiet and meaningless
As wind in dry grass
Or rats’ feet over broken glass
In our dry cellar
Shape without form, shade without colour,
Paralysed force, gesture without motion;
Those who have crossed
With direct eyes, to death’s other Kingdom
Remember us—if at all—not as lost
Violent souls, but only
As the hollow men
The stuffed men.
The hollow men will probably escape unscathed. The hollow men doubtlessly remain strong in the belief that They Did Their Best and this was simply an unfortunate turn of events. The next time some maverick gets restricted and wants to fly pax anyway (safe in the personal belief that he knows best) he will assume that the Hollow Men will not be able or willing to stop him. After all, they didn't or coudn't stop Hempel; why should he be any different?
Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 21st Jun 2012 at 11:26.
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Alemazed logic.
WiW, posts with honesty, care, a judicious, weighted modicum of passion and a love of fairness, despite Shiraz pizzazz. (Leonard Cohen, T S Eliot I can live with - but Milton ? oh yawn).
But; with the Mods forbearance, my own favourite silly poem, offered as a 'Cheers' to the good, honest compliant folks trying to better the aviation community: – The Dogs Tail.
"The dogs they called a meeting, they came from near and far.
Some dogs came by aeroplane, others came by car; and as they crossed the courtyard to sign the visitors book each dog took off its asshole and hung it on a hook".
"Now every dog was there sir, each bitch each pup each sire; when a dirty rotten mongrel jumped up and shouted FIRE.
The dogs were so confused sir, didn't know where to look. Just grabbed the nearest asshole off the nearest hook".
"Now that is why today sir, wherever you may roam; you'll see each dog sniff another's arse to see if its his own".
Not my own work - you reading Skipper?. Selah.
But; with the Mods forbearance, my own favourite silly poem, offered as a 'Cheers' to the good, honest compliant folks trying to better the aviation community: – The Dogs Tail.
"The dogs they called a meeting, they came from near and far.
Some dogs came by aeroplane, others came by car; and as they crossed the courtyard to sign the visitors book each dog took off its asshole and hung it on a hook".
"Now every dog was there sir, each bitch each pup each sire; when a dirty rotten mongrel jumped up and shouted FIRE.
The dogs were so confused sir, didn't know where to look. Just grabbed the nearest asshole off the nearest hook".
"Now that is why today sir, wherever you may roam; you'll see each dog sniff another's arse to see if its his own".
Not my own work - you reading Skipper?. Selah.
Last edited by Kharon; 21st Jun 2012 at 11:32. Reason: Get it right in a minute.
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Well, that's easy for you to say.
Now where are we...............Oh yes everyone in agreement but with different themes.
True, and I am probably as guilty as others for not "dobbing" but I was fighting a battle with CASA at the same time and I was aware of the stupidity of laying such a complaint.
I did my best in the circumstances by alerting the company of my previous medical encounters with "head doctors" and Dr No.
Am I repeating myself?
Now where are we...............Oh yes everyone in agreement but with different themes.
Hindsight is not foresight
I did my best in the circumstances by alerting the company of my previous medical encounters with "head doctors" and Dr No.
Am I repeating myself?
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True, and I am probably as guilty as others for not "dobbing" but I was fighting a battle with CASA at the same time and I was aware of the stupidity of laying such a complaint.
Everybody knew with Transair (whatever name was on the tickets
) and I was as guilty as anyone. I didn't pick up the phone either. I know people who did and received no acknowlegment or follow up from the regulator. If I had? IMO there would have been no gain. Absolute risk to me (the dog) with no guarantee of a resolution. That's the level of trust that the community has in the regulator. Don't bother calling.
It sounds like you did what you could; you did what you thought was right. A reasonable person would have listened to your advice but the reasonable person defence falls down when we're talking about an unreasonable person.
A regulator should be there to curtail the unreasonable persons; that's what they're there for. That's why the Commonwealth entrusts them with things like the right of search; the right to interview; the right to curtail business activities. These are not rights that should be taken lightly, but unfortunately that seems to have happened in other cases. Why didn't people call the regulator? Maybe because they didn't trust them.
Whether people were beating down the door with complaints or whether the word on the street was that Hempel was acting dodgy makes no difference; I find it hard to believe they didn't know. If people knew and weren't beating down their door then that says something about the aviation community's perception of its (alleged) regulator.
Sure Milton's yawny but there's a bit in there.
Last edited by Worrals in the wilds; 22nd Jun 2012 at 03:13.
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Has anyone asked why he was sacked from Ansett
