Nav aids in Aus to be shut down?
Thread Starter
Nav aids in Aus to be shut down?
From another forum, a mate of mine in the Aus Navy wrote -
I haven't worked since 2009 but this is pretty big news, I've never heard anything about it.
How true is it?
In case people are interested, all ground-based navigations aids in Australia are going to be switched off in the near future. Aircraft will have to rely on performance based navigation like GPS.
How true is it?
a mate of mine in the Aus Navy wrote
Or, ask him what the definition of "near future" is. Perhaps it is the same timeframe for getting all 6 Collins class tubs up to speed and fully operational!
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I believe mainly enroute navaids will go with a reduction of aids at airdromes. E.G IRS/GPS Enroute + Approach with ILS or VOR depending on the usage at that Airdrome as a backup. With all NDB's phased out.
This will probably mean the end of circling approaches.
Have Fun
I Do
This will probably mean the end of circling approaches.
Have Fun
I Do
all ground-based navigations aids in Australia are going to be switched off in the near future.
Most navaids are part of an essential network for air traffic management by ATC, and those have been (or will be) upgraded or replaced when they reach end of life. Others not essential to the network have either been offered to local aerodrome owners or operators to take over, or been decommissioned if the aerodrome owner or operators have said they do not require them, or are currently being maintained until someone makes a decision.
Your mate should join an aviation industry association such as RAAA AOPA or participate in local RAPAC.
As someone who works for the organisation in question....I can tell you that they plan to decomission 170 navaids Australia wide within the next 3 yrs, and this does include navaids at major/international aerodromes. For example I am pretty sure that the VOR's at SY and ML are on the list.
Those NAVAIDS that are to be kept in the backup infrastructure are currently being replaced. If a navaid near you is not scheduled to be replaced then there is a good chance it is being decomissioned.
So to answer all the "negative" comments
Quite incorrect, navaids are no longer an essential network for traffic management. It is cheaper and easier to replace a navaid with a waypoint. The only organisation/s in the country that is permitted to operate navaids is AsA and RAAF. So they are not being offered to aerodromes or private consortiums because they don't have the approvals to operate them.
Not all NDB's phased out, some of them are part of the backup navaid network and are currently being replaced/upgraded. If you do find the list, you will quite surprised as to which navaids are on it
I would say that in 3-5 years ground based navaids will be far and few between. Well thats the info they have provided to us for approach planning requirements.
Alpha
Those NAVAIDS that are to be kept in the backup infrastructure are currently being replaced. If a navaid near you is not scheduled to be replaced then there is a good chance it is being decomissioned.
So to answer all the "negative" comments
Incorrect.
Most navaids are part of an essential network for air traffic management by ATC, and those have been (or will be) upgraded or replaced when they reach end of life. Others not essential to the network have either been offered to local aerodrome owners or operators to take over, or been decommissioned if the aerodrome owner or operators have said they do not require them, or are currently being maintained until someone makes a decision.
Most navaids are part of an essential network for air traffic management by ATC, and those have been (or will be) upgraded or replaced when they reach end of life. Others not essential to the network have either been offered to local aerodrome owners or operators to take over, or been decommissioned if the aerodrome owner or operators have said they do not require them, or are currently being maintained until someone makes a decision.
Not all NDB's phased out, some of them are part of the backup navaid network and are currently being replaced/upgraded. If you do find the list, you will quite surprised as to which navaids are on it
I would say that in 3-5 years ground based navaids will be far and few between. Well thats the info they have provided to us for approach planning requirements.
Alpha
Last edited by alphacentauri; 2nd Jun 2012 at 01:46.
Also forgot to add....
The reason the Navy know about this is because they can/do use some of the coastal NDB's for navigation. All of the coastal NDB's are published on the nautical charts and they use them as a cross check for navigation....well they did when I worked for them.
The reason the Navy know about this is because they can/do use some of the coastal NDB's for navigation. All of the coastal NDB's are published on the nautical charts and they use them as a cross check for navigation....well they did when I worked for them.
This 'process' has been going on for over 20 years or so now.
For example, how long is it since the 'non-essential' Perth NDB at Pt Waylen, Attadale / Alfred Cove, was decommissioned due to it being deemed 'uneconomic' / 'non-essential'..?
This NDB had a 'terrific' range out over the Indian Ocean, with some of the 'Springbok' and Qantas crews reporting it at a 'looong waaay' out, at times...
No GPS then......
Anybody remember it? Used to use it??
There must be many more such examples.
Similarly, there used to be a Marine NDB at Cape Leeuwin, which some pilots who knew about it, used to......
Dems were de days.....
The loss of 'domestic' NDB's will be sad loss for the G/A guys, especially at 'remote locations' in de middle of de night....
For example, how long is it since the 'non-essential' Perth NDB at Pt Waylen, Attadale / Alfred Cove, was decommissioned due to it being deemed 'uneconomic' / 'non-essential'..?
This NDB had a 'terrific' range out over the Indian Ocean, with some of the 'Springbok' and Qantas crews reporting it at a 'looong waaay' out, at times...
No GPS then......
Anybody remember it? Used to use it??
There must be many more such examples.
Similarly, there used to be a Marine NDB at Cape Leeuwin, which some pilots who knew about it, used to......
Dems were de days.....
The loss of 'domestic' NDB's will be sad loss for the G/A guys, especially at 'remote locations' in de middle of de night....
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 2nd Jun 2012 at 03:30.
Where does that leave TSO-C129 (non-WAAS) GPS's which require an alternate with a ground based aid ?
A ploy to have everyone change over to WAAS GPS's which are unable to receive the WAAS signals here is Oz, just to not need an alternate without a ground based aid?
A ploy to have everyone change over to WAAS GPS's which are unable to receive the WAAS signals here is Oz, just to not need an alternate without a ground based aid?
Perhaps you should talk to your ATS systems people alphacentauri because the information to Industry comes from them. They also indicated that some navaids are required for air traffic management outside surveillance coverage, due not all aircraft being equipped with GPS-based navigation systems.
ASA and Defence are not the only two "permited" to operate NAVAIDS. Quite a number of NDBs are privately operated - Renmark and Shepparton are just two that come to mind - and they have been offered to aerodrome operators for some time.
The last we heard about the SY VOR was it was to be shut down for a period while new hangars are being built, and after to be reinstated.
ASA and Defence are not the only two "permited" to operate NAVAIDS. Quite a number of NDBs are privately operated - Renmark and Shepparton are just two that come to mind - and they have been offered to aerodrome operators for some time.
The last we heard about the SY VOR was it was to be shut down for a period while new hangars are being built, and after to be reinstated.
Quite a number of NDBs are privately operated
Not limited to NDB, there is at least one, probably one more ILS "privately" owned and operated, there is no law that prevents an "interested party" owning and operating navaids, provided compliance witha bleeding thick book of standards is shown.
In a similar vein, there are quite a few "privately owned" approach and departure procedures that are not published and available for other users.
Tootle pip!!
Interestingly this may have ramifications for some of the smaller operators of medium jets (early A320's and 737 Classics), as most of those are not GPS-equipped, and (I'm told) are not a simple process to retrofit. Admittedly this is only a small number of aircraft, but would limit a few operators.
The Norfolk NDB is one of the strongest I know, and at night can be received with a strong ident and bearing from west of Coffs Harbour.
The Norfolk NDB is one of the strongest I know, and at night can be received with a strong ident and bearing from west of Coffs Harbour.
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Anyone wishing to find the list of backup network naiads, look on the CASA website and find reference to a NPRM1105AS for aircraft equipage. Annex G gives a list of the navaids which will be kept after the mandate date of Feb 2016.
This list was put together by ASTRA. Look this up too; it is a consultative body made up of various members of the aviation fraternity, including QANTAS, Virgin, AOPA, RAAA etc. This body reports to the APG which is basically a coffee club of the CEO's of AsA, CASA, DoIT and Defence. APG recommends to the Ministers of Defence and Transport.
The list was formulated in 2005 and has been accepted by all these bodies. The reasoning behind the list: it is a backup in case of GPS failure and is supposed to provide guidance to the nearest suitable aerodrome - note most suitable and not preferred aerodrome. Currently there are approximately 410 non precision aids (NDB, VOR, DME). There are about 220 on the backup list. The declared position of both CASA and Airservices is that there will be a reduction to the backup network after the mandate kicks in in Feb 2016. This is easily determined by looking at published 5 and 10 year plans on the various websites.
AsA has been decommissioning aids since the 1990's on a site by site determined basis. There are a large number of aids which were commissioned in the 60's and 70's which have either outlived their original purpose or have become difficult to maintain - spares, structures, electronics, suppliers, any number of reasons. This will continue to occur. There are sites under scrutiny now as anyone who has attended a recent RAPAC can attest.
The bare facts are that it costs around 600K to replace an NDB and around 1.2mill to replace a VOR. A DME not so much because the antenna and electronic setups are simpler. The big players in aviation are not prepared to pay for this replacement in the long run when they are equipping to run GNSS nav system. ASTRA was told in 2005 that to replace the ground based nav system outside of the backup network would cost between 140 and 200 million dollars. You can do the sums for the current cost.
This list was put together by ASTRA. Look this up too; it is a consultative body made up of various members of the aviation fraternity, including QANTAS, Virgin, AOPA, RAAA etc. This body reports to the APG which is basically a coffee club of the CEO's of AsA, CASA, DoIT and Defence. APG recommends to the Ministers of Defence and Transport.
The list was formulated in 2005 and has been accepted by all these bodies. The reasoning behind the list: it is a backup in case of GPS failure and is supposed to provide guidance to the nearest suitable aerodrome - note most suitable and not preferred aerodrome. Currently there are approximately 410 non precision aids (NDB, VOR, DME). There are about 220 on the backup list. The declared position of both CASA and Airservices is that there will be a reduction to the backup network after the mandate kicks in in Feb 2016. This is easily determined by looking at published 5 and 10 year plans on the various websites.
AsA has been decommissioning aids since the 1990's on a site by site determined basis. There are a large number of aids which were commissioned in the 60's and 70's which have either outlived their original purpose or have become difficult to maintain - spares, structures, electronics, suppliers, any number of reasons. This will continue to occur. There are sites under scrutiny now as anyone who has attended a recent RAPAC can attest.
The bare facts are that it costs around 600K to replace an NDB and around 1.2mill to replace a VOR. A DME not so much because the antenna and electronic setups are simpler. The big players in aviation are not prepared to pay for this replacement in the long run when they are equipping to run GNSS nav system. ASTRA was told in 2005 that to replace the ground based nav system outside of the backup network would cost between 140 and 200 million dollars. You can do the sums for the current cost.
Last edited by Robbovic; 2nd Jun 2012 at 06:08.
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Leadsled
Not quite. Airservices is the only holder of a civil CASR Part 171 certificate in Australia. All privately owned aids are maintained under contract by Airservices staff. Privately owned aids are installed and commissioned under that 171 certificate.
Not quite. Airservices is the only holder of a civil CASR Part 171 certificate in Australia. All privately owned aids are maintained under contract by Airservices staff. Privately owned aids are installed and commissioned under that 171 certificate.
Last edited by Robbovic; 2nd Jun 2012 at 06:13.
CaptainMidnight
As the only holder of the CASR 171 certificate, AsA is the only civilian organisation permitted to operate navaids. They can be owned by anybody, but they can only be operated under the 171 certificate. The aerodromes can buy them, but the only way they can be operated is under contract with AsA....which is going to cost the aerodromes more money.
As far as I know the SY VOR is scheduled to be decommissioned. I have not heard of any plans to re-instate it...but that doesn't mean it won't happen.
Alpha
ASA and Defence are not the only two "permited" to operate NAVAIDS. Quite a number of NDBs are privately operated - Renmark and Shepparton are just two that come to mind - and they have been offered to aerodrome operators for some time.
As far as I know the SY VOR is scheduled to be decommissioned. I have not heard of any plans to re-instate it...but that doesn't mean it won't happen.
Alpha
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GPS is run and controlled by the US military. It can be downgraded or even switched off. It can remain on but coded for military use only.
Removing ground based aids before there is a back up system is a recipe for trouble.
Removing ground based aids before there is a back up system is a recipe for trouble.
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Lat-seps
So for those of us that work in non-radar towers doing procedural approach, does that mean we'll finally get decent lat sep drawings based on real GPS tolerences and actually be able to use GPS/RNAV equipped aircraft properly?