Cessna 100 and 200 SIDS
Join Date: Nov 2012
Location: The Last Resort
Age: 52
Posts: 154
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Time Frames
Some of the time frames seem to have been extended beyond what cessna had originally specified. I thought D Day was June 30 this year. I will still be trying to get mine done as soon as possible.
I'm happy to see any thing that rids the sky of some of the pitiful excuses for aircraft that I have had to fly. I've had bits fall off aircraft, seen feet through wing walks, landing gear legs falling off. Anything that sits out in the open for 20+ years will be riddled with corrosion.
However the state of GA in Oz merely reflects the state of the country, one that is in decay. Industry in Oz has all but gone, a government that punitively taxes any sort of endeavour. The government harps on about the cost of the road toll, but slugs people with GST if they buy a new (safer) car, and for anyone who works hard so they can by something nice, the government slugs you with a punitive "luxury" car tax thank you very much.
We need tax breaks to allow is to buy new aircraft, accelerated depreciation, a cleanup of the regulatory system to make the costs of compliance less. We need a population that is less interested in sitting on its arse waiting for Centrelink payments.
However the state of GA in Oz merely reflects the state of the country, one that is in decay. Industry in Oz has all but gone, a government that punitively taxes any sort of endeavour. The government harps on about the cost of the road toll, but slugs people with GST if they buy a new (safer) car, and for anyone who works hard so they can by something nice, the government slugs you with a punitive "luxury" car tax thank you very much.
We need tax breaks to allow is to buy new aircraft, accelerated depreciation, a cleanup of the regulatory system to make the costs of compliance less. We need a population that is less interested in sitting on its arse waiting for Centrelink payments.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: -28.1494 / 151.943
Age: 68
Posts: 463
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We'll that clears it up now. About time. But every one will wait till the last minute as usual blah blah blah
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: australia
Posts: 1,044
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Avgas that is up to you to decide what you wish to do. However to say you wouldn't take it to my work shop once again up to your self. But you more than likely can't afford to have it in the first place. But the statement still stands everyone will wait till the last minute and then expect every work shop to think they the most important person in the world and drop everything. Happened before and will happen again. And maybe I wouldn't won't to work on your machine any way have you considered that.
Cheers any way.
Cheers any way.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: -28.1494 / 151.943
Age: 68
Posts: 463
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
now a Cont 0-300. 100 hp 4 cly and on a good day 2500 rpm. so when you get det in the 308 the cly is roughly half the size of that of the little cont.
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Melbourne
Posts: 98
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Hey Avgas,
Is yours a H model, and is your connie one of those
Geared ones, not many around any more, a good machine
Most likely, could have done with spats that don't look like they
Are off a 20's sidecar though,
Ozgrade,
I think your comments are pretty much on the money, albeit
I have a feeling a change in culture has had an equal amount of
Effect as possible tax incentive changes,
when I was a kid the Sunday Night at the Aero club would see at least 20-25 families all coming together for a regular dinner/drinks etc, and usually at least one other night of the week there would be something on, plus the big Xmas party @ the end of the year etc,
I'm led to believe there has been a large reduction in Oz the existence of aero clubs, and in Vic at least, I believe is largely responsible also, for such a decline in GA. or was the lack of GA what led to them disappearing in the first place?
Is yours a H model, and is your connie one of those
Geared ones, not many around any more, a good machine
Most likely, could have done with spats that don't look like they
Are off a 20's sidecar though,
Ozgrade,
I think your comments are pretty much on the money, albeit
I have a feeling a change in culture has had an equal amount of
Effect as possible tax incentive changes,
when I was a kid the Sunday Night at the Aero club would see at least 20-25 families all coming together for a regular dinner/drinks etc, and usually at least one other night of the week there would be something on, plus the big Xmas party @ the end of the year etc,
I'm led to believe there has been a large reduction in Oz the existence of aero clubs, and in Vic at least, I believe is largely responsible also, for such a decline in GA. or was the lack of GA what led to them disappearing in the first place?
I'm led to believe there has been a large reduction in Oz the existence of aero clubs,
The decline of GA is to do with:
1. Fashion (other activities have taken over / eaten into flying)
2. Reduced number of airports. The closed airports in the Melb basin include; Berwick, Moorooduc, Sunbury, Pakenham, Philip Is (nearly), Rockbank.
3. Urbanisation of Australia. There is just less need to go to country towns / country towns are smaller.
4. Improved roads / cars making driving places more competitive.
However, I would suggest that the single biggest reason for the decline of GA is....... CASA.
CASA is the single most prominent reason why GA in Australia is more expensive, more bureaucratic and just plain harder than either 20 years ago or compared with the FAA / USA.
20 years ago, you could walk up to a flying school and within an hour or so do your first flying lesson. Now? Pretend you know nothing about flying, but are interested in starting. Go to the CASA website and try and research what you need to get a student pilot licence and find the forms. I dare you!
At the industry briefings for the new Part 61 regs last year, the time delay and difficulty in getting student pilot licences probably came up as the single greatest impediment that flying schools have in securing new students.
If you google Cessna SIDs or just read the US based magazines, the SIDs programme is a) not generating 1/10 the controversy as Australia and b) doesn't seem to be regarded as the cost impediment that it is here.
Why?
Am I correct in believing that compliance with the Cessna SIDs proramme is not mandatory in the US?
If you look at the Cessna video it doesn't look unreasonable and I would expect that most of the inspections can / should be part of a normal 100 hourly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-68AdXVHHI8
Why?
Am I correct in believing that compliance with the Cessna SIDs proramme is not mandatory in the US?
If you look at the Cessna video it doesn't look unreasonable and I would expect that most of the inspections can / should be part of a normal 100 hourly.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-68AdXVHHI8
So, without debating the merit of SIDs, but instead CASA's decision making.
Why has Australia mandated something that the country in which the aircraft is manufactured and the country that set the design standards that are adopted by the rest of the world is not making mandatory?
Is this another ADS-B type example where Australia is on its own ahead of the rest of the world, with no reasoned logic and not looking over its shoulder to see if anyone is following?
What is the logic, or where is the evidence that Australia should make it mandatory for all Cessna aircraft in all classes of operation when America (and I'm assuming all other countries with significant GA) are not?
Why is CASA's decision making not transparent? How can decisions be made that cost s significant amounts of money be made without the decision logic ever being prosecuted?
Why has Australia mandated something that the country in which the aircraft is manufactured and the country that set the design standards that are adopted by the rest of the world is not making mandatory?
Is this another ADS-B type example where Australia is on its own ahead of the rest of the world, with no reasoned logic and not looking over its shoulder to see if anyone is following?
What is the logic, or where is the evidence that Australia should make it mandatory for all Cessna aircraft in all classes of operation when America (and I'm assuming all other countries with significant GA) are not?
Why is CASA's decision making not transparent? How can decisions be made that cost s significant amounts of money be made without the decision logic ever being prosecuted?
The AWB is just a clarification that under our rules the SIDs are mandatory, it did not mandate them with its issue they already had to be done.
Similar AWB's have been issued for compliance IAW manufacturers data such as AWB 02-44 for R44 helicopters
We also went through this with the 300 / 400 series several years ago.
What it does do is stop the owner shopping for an opinion and wondering off to another Maintenance Shop that would sign the aircraft out ignoring the manufacturers recommendations. Those aircraft that have had reasonable maintenance will not have many problems, the owners that shop each time for the cheapest 100 hourly may be in for a shock. Like LAME's there are good and bad owners.
In the SIDs Operation One it states Inspect aircraft records to verify that all applicable Cessna Service Information Letters, Cessna Service Bulletins and Supplier Service Bulletins are complied with. For those older aircraft the SB list is quite long eg for a 68 Model 185 approx 25 pages in Non Recurring Log Book Format. Some cross reference to AD's and some to old Rex drawings, a little research will be involved.
Recent Maintenance Manual Revisions for Cessnas also include
(varies between models)
COMPONENT REPLACEMENT
Engine Compartment Flexible Fluid 5 years or engine overhaul
Engine Air Filter 500 hours or 36 months
Engine Mixture, Throttle, and Propeller Controls At engine TBO
Engine Driven Dry Vacuum Pump 6 years
Engine Driven Dry Vacuum Pump 500 hours
Standby Dry Vacuum Pump 500 hours or 10 years
Switch (Landing Light) 4 years
Landing and Taxi Light Switch 4 Years
Aircraft serials: (Note 11
Switch (Beacon Light) 4 years
Auxiliary Electric Fuel Pump 10 Years
Vacuum Manifold Valve 5 Year Test, 10 year replace
Restraint Assembly Pilot, Copilot and Passenger Seats, 10 years (not all models ... yet)
Trim Tab Actuator 1,000 hours or 3 years (O/H)
Vacuum System Filter 500 hours
Vacuum System Hoses 10 years
Pitot and Static System Hoses 10
Magneto O/H and 500 hour inspection IAW Slick or Bendix SB's
Check Valve Turbocharger Every 1,000 hours
For the Vac pumps most by now would have the PMA wear indicator pumps that do not have the 500 hour requirement.
Old flat spring leg models have recent maintenance manual revisions with strict limits on corrosion and refinishing procedures, many older Cessnas I have seen in service will not pass these inspection limits.
The AWB and Aviation Ruling 01/2014 has implications for other aircraft types where the manufacturers data is not taken into consideration.
What the Cessna Video and presentation does not show is the wings coming off for the ECI inspection of the strut and wing attach points, the complete removal of the interior for the corrosion inspection, Axle removal to inspect the bolt bores on flat spring leg models, fitting the forward door post Service Kit if it is not fitted, removing the ailerons and replacing the hinges if the SB has not been carried out, removing the rudder, letting all of the control cables go for inspection and re rigging, fitting the flap roller SK if it is not fitted, ECI of the top torque link on nose leg models, or removing the engine on certain models to do the initial MPI engine mount inspection.
Similar AWB's have been issued for compliance IAW manufacturers data such as AWB 02-44 for R44 helicopters
We also went through this with the 300 / 400 series several years ago.
What it does do is stop the owner shopping for an opinion and wondering off to another Maintenance Shop that would sign the aircraft out ignoring the manufacturers recommendations. Those aircraft that have had reasonable maintenance will not have many problems, the owners that shop each time for the cheapest 100 hourly may be in for a shock. Like LAME's there are good and bad owners.
In the SIDs Operation One it states Inspect aircraft records to verify that all applicable Cessna Service Information Letters, Cessna Service Bulletins and Supplier Service Bulletins are complied with. For those older aircraft the SB list is quite long eg for a 68 Model 185 approx 25 pages in Non Recurring Log Book Format. Some cross reference to AD's and some to old Rex drawings, a little research will be involved.
Recent Maintenance Manual Revisions for Cessnas also include
(varies between models)
COMPONENT REPLACEMENT
Engine Compartment Flexible Fluid 5 years or engine overhaul
Engine Air Filter 500 hours or 36 months
Engine Mixture, Throttle, and Propeller Controls At engine TBO
Engine Driven Dry Vacuum Pump 6 years
Engine Driven Dry Vacuum Pump 500 hours
Standby Dry Vacuum Pump 500 hours or 10 years
Switch (Landing Light) 4 years
Landing and Taxi Light Switch 4 Years
Aircraft serials: (Note 11
Switch (Beacon Light) 4 years
Auxiliary Electric Fuel Pump 10 Years
Vacuum Manifold Valve 5 Year Test, 10 year replace
Restraint Assembly Pilot, Copilot and Passenger Seats, 10 years (not all models ... yet)
Trim Tab Actuator 1,000 hours or 3 years (O/H)
Vacuum System Filter 500 hours
Vacuum System Hoses 10 years
Pitot and Static System Hoses 10
Magneto O/H and 500 hour inspection IAW Slick or Bendix SB's
Check Valve Turbocharger Every 1,000 hours
For the Vac pumps most by now would have the PMA wear indicator pumps that do not have the 500 hour requirement.
Old flat spring leg models have recent maintenance manual revisions with strict limits on corrosion and refinishing procedures, many older Cessnas I have seen in service will not pass these inspection limits.
The AWB and Aviation Ruling 01/2014 has implications for other aircraft types where the manufacturers data is not taken into consideration.
What the Cessna Video and presentation does not show is the wings coming off for the ECI inspection of the strut and wing attach points, the complete removal of the interior for the corrosion inspection, Axle removal to inspect the bolt bores on flat spring leg models, fitting the forward door post Service Kit if it is not fitted, removing the ailerons and replacing the hinges if the SB has not been carried out, removing the rudder, letting all of the control cables go for inspection and re rigging, fitting the flap roller SK if it is not fitted, ECI of the top torque link on nose leg models, or removing the engine on certain models to do the initial MPI engine mount inspection.
Last edited by edsbar; 11th Apr 2014 at 01:20. Reason: Typo
Edsbar, thanks for an informative post.
But still I don't understand why we make something mandatory that the US has not made mandatory.
I'm not even sure that Cessna regard SIDs as mandatory - If they felt it was critical they could have issued a mandatory Service Bulletin.
SIDs may be good practice, but why is Australia alone in the world in making it mandatory?
But still I don't understand why we make something mandatory that the US has not made mandatory.
I'm not even sure that Cessna regard SIDs as mandatory - If they felt it was critical they could have issued a mandatory Service Bulletin.
SIDs may be good practice, but why is Australia alone in the world in making it mandatory?
We are not alone NZ and EASA require them to be carried out.
Cessna issued them as a Maintenance Manual revision rather than an SB, they are not a stand alone document like the previous CAPs.
It's the difference in our regs.
Even in the US if you did not comply and there was an incident that could be even remotely related the lawyers would have a field day, you may get off but the legal bill could be millions.
Cessna issued them as a Maintenance Manual revision rather than an SB, they are not a stand alone document like the previous CAPs.
It's the difference in our regs.
Even in the US if you did not comply and there was an incident that could be even remotely related the lawyers would have a field day, you may get off but the legal bill could be millions.
There are some really good presentations here:
http://easa.europa.eu/events/events....-_Open_session
If you open the compressed file marked presentations, the Cessna presentation titled Cessna single engine SID 13 March is particularly good.
It suggests that they are finding that low time properly maintained singles are taking 10 hours to complete the SID and high time well maintained singles are taking 25 hours. Plus any repairs required, naturally.
It doesn't look very scary for a fixed gear strut wing 100 / 200 series. The cantilever wing 200 series don't look nearly as easy. You really wonder if they may have a use-by date.
http://easa.europa.eu/events/events....-_Open_session
If you open the compressed file marked presentations, the Cessna presentation titled Cessna single engine SID 13 March is particularly good.
It suggests that they are finding that low time properly maintained singles are taking 10 hours to complete the SID and high time well maintained singles are taking 25 hours. Plus any repairs required, naturally.
It doesn't look very scary for a fixed gear strut wing 100 / 200 series. The cantilever wing 200 series don't look nearly as easy. You really wonder if they may have a use-by date.
Last edited by Old Akro; 11th Apr 2014 at 05:42. Reason: fix url link
Plus any repairs required, naturally
Old Akro great infomation, however the presentations contradict each other
Presentation 7 Slide 12
Maintenance experience
• our experience says SID inspection need
around 50 to 80 labour hours for the whole
inspection (without findings)
• for aircrafts without CAP – SID inspection
needs around 100 -120 labour hours
There would be very few Cessnas in Australia that had the CAPs inspections carried out, if any. On a pre restart Cessna (Pre 1996) you would not do the paperwork in 10 hours!
The labour figures quoted in the Cessna Presentation are not possible (or even close to possible) for a 100 or 200 Series that is 20 years old.
Give me a model, Total Time and area it has lived and I would be happy show the inspections required and that this is just not possible.
Better still give Cessna a call and ask them for a 25 hour fixed price SID!
Presentation 7 Slide 12
Maintenance experience
• our experience says SID inspection need
around 50 to 80 labour hours for the whole
inspection (without findings)
• for aircrafts without CAP – SID inspection
needs around 100 -120 labour hours
There would be very few Cessnas in Australia that had the CAPs inspections carried out, if any. On a pre restart Cessna (Pre 1996) you would not do the paperwork in 10 hours!
The labour figures quoted in the Cessna Presentation are not possible (or even close to possible) for a 100 or 200 Series that is 20 years old.
Give me a model, Total Time and area it has lived and I would be happy show the inspections required and that this is just not possible.
Better still give Cessna a call and ask them for a 25 hour fixed price SID!
Join Date: Mar 2014
Location: In the bush, Australia
Age: 65
Posts: 4
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have a 97 "R" 172, I have already been "over serviced " long story, now sorted. SIDS inspection looks like another $6 k just for the inspection. The minister of finance is starting to have issues!! She will not be happy if I get a $20k bill for SIDS ! It is confusing to say the least, and I don't have a lot of confidence in the lame ( nothing against lame's !! I think they have THE most thankless hard job in GA thanks to CASA) just that I don't want to be the " test" case for his SIDS education. My plane has been opened up 4 times in 18 months, and no, it hasn't done 400 hours.... Now it seems it all has to be done again. Anyway, I am new here... Have found these forums pretty informative.
Under. Part 91 in the USA I believe the SIDs are not mandatory.
The US does not run a "one size fits all" system, if your aircraft operates under Part 91, the maintenance required is spelt out in Part 91. If your aircraft is being operated under Part 135, Part 135 is where you will find maintenance requirements, and so on.
You should be thinking about whether you want to fly in an unairworthy aeroplane, some of the Cessna wings I have seen pulled apart are truly scary.
From experience, in the strutted models, the most critical area is the main spar from the root fitting to the strut attach point, and you can only really determine the condition by getting into it, an external visual inspection, even with the tank out, is not enough.
This is not just a matter of "compliance with regulations", this is about your neck, or more importantly, the well being of other who might be in the aircraft.
Tootle pip!!