How many hours student pilot generally have when going first solo?
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Thanks for the videos Roger . .brings back some fond memories of flying at YMMB. I soloed there many years ago using runway 17L in a C152 after about 14 hours. From the videos, I say you're not far off from being sent solo. The approach appears stable and the flare height, from what I can see from the video appears about right. The fact that you're getting the stall warning horn just before touch would suggest that your speed is ok as well. By the way, what's that beeping noise on short final? Autopilot disengage perhaps? hahaha
As for keeping on the centerline, yes, you will need to use rudder for directional control. I do all my flying in the right seat these days so my technique would mirror yours on the left, but basically, what I do is to 'step' on the centreline with the inside of my right foot using the centreline as a reference point. I try to 'feel' the centreline run up the inside of my foot, all the way in to my groin during the approach. So for you, sitting on the left, you would do this with the inside of your left foot. If you have this reference point to aim for, for centreline guidance from early final, it will make it much easier to end up on the centreline at short final and during the flare.
This is just a suggestion which you can take or leave, but I have been a flight instructor before with about 900 hours instructional time and this is the technique I teach to my students who have trouble maintaining runway centreline.
All the best with your training, and when you do solo, please upload the video of your celebrations. I'm not sure what the tradition is for your flight school for solo celebrations .. some places throw a bucket of cold water over you, so watch out ...
As for keeping on the centerline, yes, you will need to use rudder for directional control. I do all my flying in the right seat these days so my technique would mirror yours on the left, but basically, what I do is to 'step' on the centreline with the inside of my right foot using the centreline as a reference point. I try to 'feel' the centreline run up the inside of my foot, all the way in to my groin during the approach. So for you, sitting on the left, you would do this with the inside of your left foot. If you have this reference point to aim for, for centreline guidance from early final, it will make it much easier to end up on the centreline at short final and during the flare.
This is just a suggestion which you can take or leave, but I have been a flight instructor before with about 900 hours instructional time and this is the technique I teach to my students who have trouble maintaining runway centreline.
All the best with your training, and when you do solo, please upload the video of your celebrations. I'm not sure what the tradition is for your flight school for solo celebrations .. some places throw a bucket of cold water over you, so watch out ...
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Thanks a lot Keg.
I do not worry too much about the V/s thing. The runway perspective is the major reference for glide slop, I do understand it. I never tried to reference or target the V/S. so I think if it looks not shallow, it is not shallow.
Also thank you for the answer for the centerline. In the video I posted, I do tried once to turn back to the center line with rudder right before flare, it looks not that good.
Your reminder of taking it back to basic is also great. I think that is the way I am thinking. I am not trying to pile myself up with the tricks and tips and hope it can solve my problem. I am trying to dig out what I did right and what I did wrong on basic flying technique by reading your experts observations. Then I can fix the basics. What I got so far is I am still not relax enough so overcontrol sometimes happens, not trimmed to the best, and also need to fly base leg better in terms of managing descend rater. Then combined with just a few tips, I believe that will make me a better pilot.
Thanks a lot for your kind comments and I do enjoy this "hard work".
I do not worry too much about the V/s thing. The runway perspective is the major reference for glide slop, I do understand it. I never tried to reference or target the V/S. so I think if it looks not shallow, it is not shallow.
Also thank you for the answer for the centerline. In the video I posted, I do tried once to turn back to the center line with rudder right before flare, it looks not that good.
Your reminder of taking it back to basic is also great. I think that is the way I am thinking. I am not trying to pile myself up with the tricks and tips and hope it can solve my problem. I am trying to dig out what I did right and what I did wrong on basic flying technique by reading your experts observations. Then I can fix the basics. What I got so far is I am still not relax enough so overcontrol sometimes happens, not trimmed to the best, and also need to fly base leg better in terms of managing descend rater. Then combined with just a few tips, I believe that will make me a better pilot.
Thanks a lot for your kind comments and I do enjoy this "hard work".
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Hi training wheels,
Thanks! I think that is a great reference for the center line. I am using the center line at the right angle with the horizon as a visual cue to confirm I am on center line, I will try your trick next time.
Also I will watch that bucket of cold water, it is winter now...
.. hope they won't just pour it into the cockpit..
Thanks! I think that is a great reference for the center line. I am using the center line at the right angle with the horizon as a visual cue to confirm I am on center line, I will try your trick next time.
Also I will watch that bucket of cold water, it is winter now...
.. hope they won't just pour it into the cockpit..
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As others have said, the most important item is airspeed. Too fast will cause many problems:
If you are being taught 60-65 knots on final that is good - from memory that is about right. I would suggest you aim to be stable at 65 knots by 300 feet. The earlier you slow down the easier it will be.
I would suggest:
After turning final, set power and flaps and use back pressure to slow the aircraft to 65 knots, then trim off most of the pressure. As the aircraft slows you might look like you are overshooting, but that is OK - you fine tune that after the speed is stable.
Once you have the speed at 60-65 knots, adjust power to keep the aim point stationary in the windscreen. As you change power forward or back pressure may be required to keep the speed stable (quite likely forward pressure when increasing power, back pressure when reducing it). Trim off any constant pressure.
The aim is to set up a stable descent ending at the runway, so that the aircraft almost goes there by itself, rather than needing to "drive" it to the runway.
The exact height you turn final is not so important - the final approach will be influenced as much by wind anyway. Of course consistency is better but 550-700 feet sounds OK especially if you have a long final approach, as I suspect is the case at Moorabbin.
Again, the key is to be at the right speed, and build everything else on that.
As for the centreline, once you are in the flare the aim is obviously to touch down travelling parallel to it, but it is too late to make major adjustments left or right. Aim for the centreline through the approach, and if you are far enough away from it at flare height that you are in danger of running off the runway go around.
In the flare use the rudder to keep the nose pointed down the runway (the same as you do taking off) and aileron to stop drift left or right and keep the aircraft travelling parallel to the centreline.
Hope this helps.
- Over controlling is more likely (particularly in pitch) as the controls are more sensitive
- Everything happens faster
- You have too much energy (speed) going into the flare, which means that ballooning is more likely and will be worse, e.g. at 75 knots too much back pressure might take you back up to 10 feet when at 65 knots it might have been 2 feet.
- If you are trimmed for 75 knots instead of 65 you will need more back pressure for the flare, making fine control more difficult.
- You spend more time in the flare waiting for the speed to bleed off, which amplifies the effect of any gust, error etc.
- You are more likely to land nosewheel first due to the flatter approach attitude and extra back pressure required in the flare.
If you are being taught 60-65 knots on final that is good - from memory that is about right. I would suggest you aim to be stable at 65 knots by 300 feet. The earlier you slow down the easier it will be.
I would suggest:
After turning final, set power and flaps and use back pressure to slow the aircraft to 65 knots, then trim off most of the pressure. As the aircraft slows you might look like you are overshooting, but that is OK - you fine tune that after the speed is stable.
Once you have the speed at 60-65 knots, adjust power to keep the aim point stationary in the windscreen. As you change power forward or back pressure may be required to keep the speed stable (quite likely forward pressure when increasing power, back pressure when reducing it). Trim off any constant pressure.
The aim is to set up a stable descent ending at the runway, so that the aircraft almost goes there by itself, rather than needing to "drive" it to the runway.
The exact height you turn final is not so important - the final approach will be influenced as much by wind anyway. Of course consistency is better but 550-700 feet sounds OK especially if you have a long final approach, as I suspect is the case at Moorabbin.
Again, the key is to be at the right speed, and build everything else on that.
As for the centreline, once you are in the flare the aim is obviously to touch down travelling parallel to it, but it is too late to make major adjustments left or right. Aim for the centreline through the approach, and if you are far enough away from it at flare height that you are in danger of running off the runway go around.
In the flare use the rudder to keep the nose pointed down the runway (the same as you do taking off) and aileron to stop drift left or right and keep the aircraft travelling parallel to the centreline.
Hope this helps.
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Having a look at your rate of descent on final is a secondary way of assessing your profile, i.e 5 times ground speed equals 3deg or 5% profile
The C172 is certified to approach power on or power off (idle RPM) for the same approach speed published in the manufacturers POH. A powered off approach (meaning glide approach) with full flap, is around seven degrees slope. To teach a stable three degree approach in the 172 with full flap and 60 knots requires around 2000 RPM which is equivalent to low cruise power and plainly inappropriate.
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Some tips
Roger Hugin
You certainly have got a lot of value out of this post. Maybe you should write a book on landing techniques from the responses. You have probably by now received too much advice, but having sent my fair share of first solos I thought I would add a few pointers.
Can you see out? Many pilots do not sit high enough. Use the seat vertical adjustment and don’t be too proud to use a cushion if necessary.
Can you see the same thing each time you fly? Don’t accept the previous pilot’s seat vertical position.
Can you see? I have come across a few trainees who had the wrong glasses for flying or wore non prescription shades.
Can you recognise the touchdown attitude? Try sitting in the cockpit, with engine off,and have somebody (your instructor) weigh the tail down until:
1. The nose wheel is just off the ground.
2. The aircraft is in the touch down attitude.
3. The tail skid is on the ground. This last one is to show you that you are unlikely to ever cause a tail scrape.
Fly a consistent stable approach. You won’t make a consistent landing if each approach is different and similarly you won’t make a consistent approach if each circuit is different. Truly the landing commences on downwind leg.
Have the approach stabilised (On glide path, on speed, landing flap set, trimmed) by say three hundred feet on final.
Trim is your friend, but remember you are trimming to “relieve sustained control loads”. I have come across instructors who teach students to trim out transient control loads, such as those resulting from even the slightest turbulence, with the result that the students are always trimming.
Too many pilots are taught to approach too fast, resulting in a prolonged hold off and ballooning. The recognised approach is 1.3 times the power off stall speed. The airspeeds for a fully laden aircraft are shown as the low end of the colour arcs on the ASI and are listed in the POH.
Ask your instructor to give you more stalling practice, and while you are at altitude practice slow flight. You will be very surprised just how slow you can make it fly.
Ask your instructor to give you practice in low flying along the runway. Motor along at hold off height with just enough power to prevent touch down. At first you will over control, but you’ll soon get the hang of it.
Try to pick your weather. Try early am or late pm to avoid convective turbulence.
Try to fly twice on the one day sometimes. Two shorter periods might be better than one longer one.
A First Solo is a confidence trick. Both the student and the Instructor must both have confidence in the student’s ability to safely make the solo flight. As an instructor I look to see that the trainee can recognise when the landing is going wrong and make the decision to abort the approach and execute a go round rather than having the ability to pull off a greaser everytime.
Remember that landings are optional. If it’s going wrong Go Round. Don't try to sort it out just Go Round. If you do decide to go round and your instructor then takes over and sorts it out every time, shame on him/her. After all it’s you who is learning to fly.
Good luck.
Seagull V
You certainly have got a lot of value out of this post. Maybe you should write a book on landing techniques from the responses. You have probably by now received too much advice, but having sent my fair share of first solos I thought I would add a few pointers.
Can you see out? Many pilots do not sit high enough. Use the seat vertical adjustment and don’t be too proud to use a cushion if necessary.
Can you see the same thing each time you fly? Don’t accept the previous pilot’s seat vertical position.
Can you see? I have come across a few trainees who had the wrong glasses for flying or wore non prescription shades.
Can you recognise the touchdown attitude? Try sitting in the cockpit, with engine off,and have somebody (your instructor) weigh the tail down until:
1. The nose wheel is just off the ground.
2. The aircraft is in the touch down attitude.
3. The tail skid is on the ground. This last one is to show you that you are unlikely to ever cause a tail scrape.
Fly a consistent stable approach. You won’t make a consistent landing if each approach is different and similarly you won’t make a consistent approach if each circuit is different. Truly the landing commences on downwind leg.
Have the approach stabilised (On glide path, on speed, landing flap set, trimmed) by say three hundred feet on final.
Trim is your friend, but remember you are trimming to “relieve sustained control loads”. I have come across instructors who teach students to trim out transient control loads, such as those resulting from even the slightest turbulence, with the result that the students are always trimming.
Too many pilots are taught to approach too fast, resulting in a prolonged hold off and ballooning. The recognised approach is 1.3 times the power off stall speed. The airspeeds for a fully laden aircraft are shown as the low end of the colour arcs on the ASI and are listed in the POH.
Ask your instructor to give you more stalling practice, and while you are at altitude practice slow flight. You will be very surprised just how slow you can make it fly.
Ask your instructor to give you practice in low flying along the runway. Motor along at hold off height with just enough power to prevent touch down. At first you will over control, but you’ll soon get the hang of it.
Try to pick your weather. Try early am or late pm to avoid convective turbulence.
Try to fly twice on the one day sometimes. Two shorter periods might be better than one longer one.
A First Solo is a confidence trick. Both the student and the Instructor must both have confidence in the student’s ability to safely make the solo flight. As an instructor I look to see that the trainee can recognise when the landing is going wrong and make the decision to abort the approach and execute a go round rather than having the ability to pull off a greaser everytime.
Remember that landings are optional. If it’s going wrong Go Round. Don't try to sort it out just Go Round. If you do decide to go round and your instructor then takes over and sorts it out every time, shame on him/her. After all it’s you who is learning to fly.
Good luck.
Seagull V
Last edited by Seagull V; 26th May 2012 at 07:50.
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If it’s going wrong Go Round. Don't try to sort it out just Go Round
The blanket advice high-lighted above sounds like a good idea to cover all eventualities but may require very careful handling especially as the student will be naturally tensed up being his first solo. Most botched landings in training aircraft are easily salvageable simply by combining slight change of attitude with a trickle of power to re-land straight ahead on the remaining length of field. A go-around is not always necessary nor desirable.
Welcome to the 'club' Roger,you may however regret that you even stepped aboard a plane to fly it. Two wives latter it all might come back to haunt you;-)
.......but for now,enjoy the ride, there's nufin' like it !
Wmk2
.......but for now,enjoy the ride, there's nufin' like it !
Wmk2
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Thanks everyone. It is really a big day for me as I believe I have stepped over the first milestone of my aviation experience, it will continue further and further I am sure.
It was a calm day Saturday, we got a CAVOK too, but it was the busiest day I have ever seen in YMMB in all my circuit training. I never expected I will have my solo that day. Flew with the instructor first, there were about 4 or 5 planes in the circuits already when we prepared to depart. We had four circuits and my instructor told me to have a full stop, I thought immediately that it might be the time finally comes.
Landed and parked the airplane, we went back to the school and my instructor told me I will have my first solo then but we still need to do a little bit paperwork (forgot to sign-in in the first flight) and brief me a bit.
20 minutes later we went back to the apron. I was wondering why I was in such a surprisingly calm and not exciting. It feels just like I will just fly another circuit as the four I just did. Unfortunately, my feeling was proved wrong later on.
I dipped the tank, hopped in, taxi for runup and finally took off from 35R. The airplane did feel much lighter as my instructor briefed me before. It soon reached 1000ft even before I finished the turn to crosswind. I had to lower the nose while turning. As a side note, the DG was broken too, so solely rely on ground reference point. I intentionally flew the crosswind a few more seconds to get to the right spot to turn downwind.
what interesting happened from my downwind call, nothing is what I expected in my first solo, but it does put the circuit training I had in a very good test.
Reported turning downwind for full stop, tower advise I need to widen the circuit to follow a lancer approaching parkmore to come in before me. Without the lance in sight, I reported I am turning left a bit to widen my circuit but haven't seen that traffic.
While searching for the traffic I need to follow and flying a downwind wider than I usually do, tower called again to ask me if I see the lance from parkmore. I did not, but I saw a traffic at my 12 oclock. Report that and tower ask me to change plan to follow the one in front of me, which is a cherokee joining base from parkmore. In all my circuit training, I never was told to follow any airplane out of the circuit, not mention the change plan sort of thing, so this is the first time I see this complex situation, and unfortunately, I have to deal with it myself in my first solo.
To make space with the cherokee, I flew a long downwind and an unusual long base, which are all deviated from the circuit I just did or even the circuits I ever flew. At this time, I think my efforts on 10+ hours of circuit training finally paid off. I did not have any difficulty on flying the airplane while much of my brain power was on looking for traffic, talking to tower and thinking about how to deal with the situation, where to turn etc. I barely remembered I looked at the altimeter, but from the video I shoot, it seems I maintained the altitude no problem and the base descending are all good in terms of speed and profile.
In the middle base, lost track of the cherokee, so decided to ask the tower again if I am the no.1 now. They said he is on short final and I then caught him in sight. It seems I did not do anything wrong, so I turned final at exactly 600ft.
The final leg was flew carefully as it is flatter than usual because I was a bit far from the field, keep it at 65kts, and stabilised, it looked all good to me, time to flare and damn, floating up. I flared in my usual way, but the plane is lighter, so I pulled too quickly and floating up. Fixed it by releasing the back pressure a bit and flared again, the second time is fine, no bouncing and not a hard landing, but not on the centre line any more.
Right after my landing and I was still trying to recover from what I have been through, tower advise me to exit from 31L. I never heard this kind of instruction before and remembered we cannot use runway to exit, so puzzled on what I heard for a couple seconds, so asked them to say again, but while they say again, I had rolled past 31L. Trying to make it by stepping a bit brake but soon give up as it looked too dangerous for me to make it. Then heard in radio that the guy behind me was told to go around. It sounded he was very close to me indeed.
Taxied back to the apron and jumped off, my instructor was waiting for me. Shutting down and jumped off and I have finally completed my first solo.
In this first solo flight, what I learned from those many hours circuit training was put into a test. I did not realize at all before this solo flight that how much I have improved from those hours of training, but it does show me clearly that I am capable of flying semi-automatically and using my brain power to plan ahead and deal with the situation around me. If there were not that much training I had, it will be definitely a mess when I still need to concentrate on flying the airplane, and then fail to deal with the situation and falls behind the progress and screw up.
However, it also revealed my weakness, situational awareness is still a weak point of me. I will start working on this point while keep improving my flying techniques too.
Especially thanks to my instructor Charles, he is leaving the school for a great job in north, but he guided me with his knowledge and experience in past a few months, prepared me well with his high standard of proficiency, I will not be able to make it without him. It is a great fun to fly with you and all the best to you Charles!
Here is the video I shot from cockpit. Any comments are welcomed.
It was a calm day Saturday, we got a CAVOK too, but it was the busiest day I have ever seen in YMMB in all my circuit training. I never expected I will have my solo that day. Flew with the instructor first, there were about 4 or 5 planes in the circuits already when we prepared to depart. We had four circuits and my instructor told me to have a full stop, I thought immediately that it might be the time finally comes.
Landed and parked the airplane, we went back to the school and my instructor told me I will have my first solo then but we still need to do a little bit paperwork (forgot to sign-in in the first flight) and brief me a bit.
20 minutes later we went back to the apron. I was wondering why I was in such a surprisingly calm and not exciting. It feels just like I will just fly another circuit as the four I just did. Unfortunately, my feeling was proved wrong later on.
I dipped the tank, hopped in, taxi for runup and finally took off from 35R. The airplane did feel much lighter as my instructor briefed me before. It soon reached 1000ft even before I finished the turn to crosswind. I had to lower the nose while turning. As a side note, the DG was broken too, so solely rely on ground reference point. I intentionally flew the crosswind a few more seconds to get to the right spot to turn downwind.
what interesting happened from my downwind call, nothing is what I expected in my first solo, but it does put the circuit training I had in a very good test.
Reported turning downwind for full stop, tower advise I need to widen the circuit to follow a lancer approaching parkmore to come in before me. Without the lance in sight, I reported I am turning left a bit to widen my circuit but haven't seen that traffic.
While searching for the traffic I need to follow and flying a downwind wider than I usually do, tower called again to ask me if I see the lance from parkmore. I did not, but I saw a traffic at my 12 oclock. Report that and tower ask me to change plan to follow the one in front of me, which is a cherokee joining base from parkmore. In all my circuit training, I never was told to follow any airplane out of the circuit, not mention the change plan sort of thing, so this is the first time I see this complex situation, and unfortunately, I have to deal with it myself in my first solo.
To make space with the cherokee, I flew a long downwind and an unusual long base, which are all deviated from the circuit I just did or even the circuits I ever flew. At this time, I think my efforts on 10+ hours of circuit training finally paid off. I did not have any difficulty on flying the airplane while much of my brain power was on looking for traffic, talking to tower and thinking about how to deal with the situation, where to turn etc. I barely remembered I looked at the altimeter, but from the video I shoot, it seems I maintained the altitude no problem and the base descending are all good in terms of speed and profile.
In the middle base, lost track of the cherokee, so decided to ask the tower again if I am the no.1 now. They said he is on short final and I then caught him in sight. It seems I did not do anything wrong, so I turned final at exactly 600ft.
The final leg was flew carefully as it is flatter than usual because I was a bit far from the field, keep it at 65kts, and stabilised, it looked all good to me, time to flare and damn, floating up. I flared in my usual way, but the plane is lighter, so I pulled too quickly and floating up. Fixed it by releasing the back pressure a bit and flared again, the second time is fine, no bouncing and not a hard landing, but not on the centre line any more.
Right after my landing and I was still trying to recover from what I have been through, tower advise me to exit from 31L. I never heard this kind of instruction before and remembered we cannot use runway to exit, so puzzled on what I heard for a couple seconds, so asked them to say again, but while they say again, I had rolled past 31L. Trying to make it by stepping a bit brake but soon give up as it looked too dangerous for me to make it. Then heard in radio that the guy behind me was told to go around. It sounded he was very close to me indeed.
Taxied back to the apron and jumped off, my instructor was waiting for me. Shutting down and jumped off and I have finally completed my first solo.
In this first solo flight, what I learned from those many hours circuit training was put into a test. I did not realize at all before this solo flight that how much I have improved from those hours of training, but it does show me clearly that I am capable of flying semi-automatically and using my brain power to plan ahead and deal with the situation around me. If there were not that much training I had, it will be definitely a mess when I still need to concentrate on flying the airplane, and then fail to deal with the situation and falls behind the progress and screw up.
However, it also revealed my weakness, situational awareness is still a weak point of me. I will start working on this point while keep improving my flying techniques too.
Especially thanks to my instructor Charles, he is leaving the school for a great job in north, but he guided me with his knowledge and experience in past a few months, prepared me well with his high standard of proficiency, I will not be able to make it without him. It is a great fun to fly with you and all the best to you Charles!
Here is the video I shot from cockpit. Any comments are welcomed.
Last edited by roger_hujin; 5th Jun 2012 at 01:43.
it!
