Plane Crash Bundaberg
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
OK it's Wiki but it was not designed or built by Piper, just distributed by them for a short while.
The aircraft is now sold as a Sport Cruiser.
Similarly the Cessna Corvalis and Cirrus SRS fall into the same category.
From the photos there appears to be an absence of a roll-bar of any significance. If this Sports Cruiser/Piper Sport had caught in the cane and flipped inverted, how would surviving occupants get out? Taking a line from the glare shield to the rear of the cockpit, two big blokes would have their heads and shoulders in the mud. So how do you get out when you are compressed by the aircraft and limited by the body mass of the person along side you?
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
From the photos there appears to be an absence of a roll-bar of any significance.
But yes, getting out of a flipped aircraft is always an issue, especially a low wing. It doesn't take much to bend things so that doors won't open anymore.
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Mel-burn
Posts: 4,875
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ndegi - I would have edited this but I can't upload right now.
Draw a line from the top of the canopy where it latches to in front of the dash.
You are exactly right, not much hope if she flips. You can't extend the line to the front of the cowl because that's not structural and you can't draw a line to the tip of the tail because that goes into the mud.
So to answer your question - ye would have little hope of survival in that scenario, particularly if water was involved. If the canopy smashed, that is a different story again. Most FAR certified low wing canopy style aircraft have a glass smashing safety hammer installed. I know of a particular aircraft where it is stored behind the passenger seat and as a result, solo flight is not permitted from the right seat because the pilot would not be able to reach the hammer. Cirrus would be another example of this.
http://www.yenra.com/wiki/images/Piper-sport.jpg
Draw a line from the top of the canopy where it latches to in front of the dash.
You are exactly right, not much hope if she flips. You can't extend the line to the front of the cowl because that's not structural and you can't draw a line to the tip of the tail because that goes into the mud.
So to answer your question - ye would have little hope of survival in that scenario, particularly if water was involved. If the canopy smashed, that is a different story again. Most FAR certified low wing canopy style aircraft have a glass smashing safety hammer installed. I know of a particular aircraft where it is stored behind the passenger seat and as a result, solo flight is not permitted from the right seat because the pilot would not be able to reach the hammer. Cirrus would be another example of this.
http://www.yenra.com/wiki/images/Piper-sport.jpg
Last edited by VH-XXX; 22nd Mar 2012 at 03:47.
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Western Pacific
Posts: 721
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
It doesn't take much to bend things so that doors won't open anymore
If you flip one of these aircraft you would be in a spot of bother until someone arrived to help from the outside. At least they are fairly light.
Folks,
Everybody should carry a perspex breaker/safety knife.
A good one is the Smith and Wesson "Ist Response", available here from people who sell search and rescue and fire fighting gear.
Don't buy one over the internet, it ain't worth the trouble with Customs, they think it is a flick knife ( not only some aviation regulations are crazy) and you don't save enough for the hassle ---- indeed ( at US$1 = AUD0.95 (when I bought mine) there was less than $10 in it.
Tootle pip!!
Everybody should carry a perspex breaker/safety knife.
A good one is the Smith and Wesson "Ist Response", available here from people who sell search and rescue and fire fighting gear.
Don't buy one over the internet, it ain't worth the trouble with Customs, they think it is a flick knife ( not only some aviation regulations are crazy) and you don't save enough for the hassle ---- indeed ( at US$1 = AUD0.95 (when I bought mine) there was less than $10 in it.
Tootle pip!!
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: dans un cercle dont le centre est eveywhere et circumfernce n'est nulle part
Posts: 2,606
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Have the rules so slackened to allow un notified flights to take place
Those rules were improved by the removal of full reporting, and even then within the training area, then 50nm, being exempt. Things that were a hangover from WW2 OPS, and REGS. (Sir). Something like medical exams for PPL's and a CASA demand to extort cash to then say even that's OK.
Can't help wondering if this poster is an ardent ADSB supporter who needs constant surveillance.
I really pity general aviation below A010 if old blokes who are out of the business for 21 years................. well enough said!
Drift......20 to the left to avoid TS....
Those rules were improved...
Maybe....
These 'limitations' were introduced as part of the 'evolutionary' process of trying to 'improve' air safety when guys got into'Heap Big Trouble'...and died.
There was a 50nm rule for flight notification, then there wasn't.
Then when a 310 disappeared on a flight from GTH to BK on a 'bad' day it was re-introduced = there was.
The 310 wreck was found on the reverse side of a hill not too far from GTH - the search had concentrated around the Blue Mntns.... = There was again.
And so it was - for most of our 'silly rules'.....
Let me tell you the introduction of the 'Area QNH' scheme vs the older 'FL' , set '1013', system once established in the cruise....that's a good story for another time....
Full Reporting was a CHOICE for VFR PVT / AWK flights but mandatory for IFR, VFR CHTR, and flights in 'Designated Remote Areas' IF one did not have an ELT. = you HAD to carry HF.
IF you had an ELT, then you could transit the area on a Sartime, for PVT and AWK.
But you had to have something....
Are we safer now?
Is it better?
Is it cheaper?
Is it 'Less hassle'..??
You decide whatever suits you.....'Tis a rhetorical question....
Turn 20 deg left skip. to back on course...
Those rules were improved...
Maybe....
These 'limitations' were introduced as part of the 'evolutionary' process of trying to 'improve' air safety when guys got into'Heap Big Trouble'...and died.
There was a 50nm rule for flight notification, then there wasn't.
Then when a 310 disappeared on a flight from GTH to BK on a 'bad' day it was re-introduced = there was.
The 310 wreck was found on the reverse side of a hill not too far from GTH - the search had concentrated around the Blue Mntns.... = There was again.
And so it was - for most of our 'silly rules'.....
Let me tell you the introduction of the 'Area QNH' scheme vs the older 'FL' , set '1013', system once established in the cruise....that's a good story for another time....
Full Reporting was a CHOICE for VFR PVT / AWK flights but mandatory for IFR, VFR CHTR, and flights in 'Designated Remote Areas' IF one did not have an ELT. = you HAD to carry HF.
IF you had an ELT, then you could transit the area on a Sartime, for PVT and AWK.
But you had to have something....
Are we safer now?
Is it better?
Is it cheaper?
Is it 'Less hassle'..??
You decide whatever suits you.....'Tis a rhetorical question....
Turn 20 deg left skip. to back on course...
It has always puzzled me that so called professional pilots find it so hard to notify people what they are doing.
Flying out of Canberra a few days back when the weather was non vfr around the capital heard this conversation....give or take
ahhhhhh Canberra approach ABCD request clearance
ABCD where are you?
ahhhhhhh blah blah
ABCD did you file a flight plan
ahhhhhhhhh no, coudn't do that I'll give you the details.
ABCD are you VFR or IFR
ahhhhhhhhhh VFR
ABCD Cb is non VMC at the moment.
ahhhhhhhhh wasn't aware of that......how long for, when did that happen?
ABCD For about the last 4 hours and the next 4 hours....so you don't have any weather or notams either? (what a classic from the ATCer!!!!)
ahhhhhhhhhhhhh..........
Flying out of Canberra a few days back when the weather was non vfr around the capital heard this conversation....give or take
ahhhhhh Canberra approach ABCD request clearance
ABCD where are you?
ahhhhhhh blah blah
ABCD did you file a flight plan
ahhhhhhhhh no, coudn't do that I'll give you the details.
ABCD are you VFR or IFR
ahhhhhhhhhh VFR
ABCD Cb is non VMC at the moment.
ahhhhhhhhh wasn't aware of that......how long for, when did that happen?
ABCD For about the last 4 hours and the next 4 hours....so you don't have any weather or notams either? (what a classic from the ATCer!!!!)
ahhhhhhhhhhhhh..........
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Australia
Posts: 632
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Are we safer now?
Besides, it's not just not mandatory anymore, nobody is interested. You go and try reporting on a filed VFR plan in class G, even if flying out in the sticks. ATC won't want to hear of you. Best you can do is a SARTIME and cancelling it over VHF is frowned upon too.
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Greta
Age: 67
Posts: 184
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The aircraft was reported overdue by the flying school with which a SAR time would have been lodged. As reported in the press.
Some time back the RAAus promoted leaving your flight information with someone responsible including who to contact if you do not arrive at the nominated time. Be it with your flight school/club or your family ETC.
Also recommended if you have the time, activate your PLB before you crash is a good idea. you can always ring Canberra and cancel if you make it down OK.
FH
Some time back the RAAus promoted leaving your flight information with someone responsible including who to contact if you do not arrive at the nominated time. Be it with your flight school/club or your family ETC.
Also recommended if you have the time, activate your PLB before you crash is a good idea. you can always ring Canberra and cancel if you make it down OK.
FH
Man Bilong Balus long PNG
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Looking forward to returning to Japan soon but in the meantime continuing the never ending search for a bad bottle of Red!
Age: 69
Posts: 2,980
Received 109 Likes
on
62 Posts
Slight thread drift.
I started learning to fly back in early 1982 when blokes like Griffo inhabited strange looking offices at airports, casting steely eyed glances over things called 'Flight Plan Forms,' and sternly pointing out errors, omissions and the like on the abovementioned forms.
Full Reporting VFR was the only flight plan filed in the Flying School I flew with, with Sartime the only acceptable alternative.
NoSar No Details was considered poor airmanship.
An equally pertinent question Griffo might be,
Do we feel any safer now?
Just saw that Griffo. That was the exact saying my Instructor (Peter D) used.
Are we safer now?
Full Reporting VFR was the only flight plan filed in the Flying School I flew with, with Sartime the only acceptable alternative.
NoSar No Details was considered poor airmanship.
An equally pertinent question Griffo might be,
Do we feel any safer now?
We used to have a saying ...'No Sar, No Details = No Sense'...
Interesting line that this thread has taken.
I guess I am now considered to be an "old guy"! Certainly I got my Unrestricted PPL back in 1973 when weather, notams and full reporting was required for flights more than 50 nm from the departure aerodrome and plans were lodged in person at the briefing office or over the phone to a briefing officer. Commercial flightplans were scrutenised centrally and it was not unusual to get a call via Flight Service to inform you that something about your flightplan didn't fully comply with the regs (usually fuel and reserves) and "What are your intentions"!
I now mostly fly on an IFR flightplan with similar full reporting requirements but I have flown lots with Mrs Dr holding a Sartime (with appropriate phone numbers beside the phone at home) or the office of a charter operator doing the same, and YES, I have flown "No SAR, no details" on many occassions also.
Do I feel less safe now than in the "old days"? NO, I can't say that I do, although I do think that there has been a slight reduction in the safety level due to less effective traffic knowledge for IFR flights in Class G airspace due to the reduction in flightplanning requirements and traffic advisories due to the loss of Flight Service.
There are certainly more poorly trained and ill-disciplined "Wallies" (no, not THE Wally!) flying around in various toy aeroplane contraptions.
As for the topic of this thread - when I learnt to fly at Archerfield in the 70s the first that anyone knew an aeroplane on a training flight in the designated training area (a VERY large area) was missing was when someone at the flying school realised that the student/instructor hadn't come back. I don't recall there being any SAR reporting in the training area.
Dr
I guess I am now considered to be an "old guy"! Certainly I got my Unrestricted PPL back in 1973 when weather, notams and full reporting was required for flights more than 50 nm from the departure aerodrome and plans were lodged in person at the briefing office or over the phone to a briefing officer. Commercial flightplans were scrutenised centrally and it was not unusual to get a call via Flight Service to inform you that something about your flightplan didn't fully comply with the regs (usually fuel and reserves) and "What are your intentions"!
I now mostly fly on an IFR flightplan with similar full reporting requirements but I have flown lots with Mrs Dr holding a Sartime (with appropriate phone numbers beside the phone at home) or the office of a charter operator doing the same, and YES, I have flown "No SAR, no details" on many occassions also.
Do I feel less safe now than in the "old days"? NO, I can't say that I do, although I do think that there has been a slight reduction in the safety level due to less effective traffic knowledge for IFR flights in Class G airspace due to the reduction in flightplanning requirements and traffic advisories due to the loss of Flight Service.
There are certainly more poorly trained and ill-disciplined "Wallies" (no, not THE Wally!) flying around in various toy aeroplane contraptions.
As for the topic of this thread - when I learnt to fly at Archerfield in the 70s the first that anyone knew an aeroplane on a training flight in the designated training area (a VERY large area) was missing was when someone at the flying school realised that the student/instructor hadn't come back. I don't recall there being any SAR reporting in the training area.
Dr
Last edited by ForkTailedDrKiller; 23rd Mar 2012 at 05:04.