Plane Crash Bundaberg
Join Date: May 2010
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IFR plan - Not in the system
The new system is not anywhere near perfect.
On 5 occasions, I have arrived at a destination on a VFR upgrade to IFR, lodged in the air with ATC, due weather changes and to be told on arrival when calling CANCEL SAR
"We don't have any details for you"
TRY That!!
By the way, traffic was given - "No traffic" on the upgrade, which was less than 20nm, BUT FULL IFR, with cloud base at 1000AGL and cloud to 6000FT - [as a bank]
On 5 occasions, I have arrived at a destination on a VFR upgrade to IFR, lodged in the air with ATC, due weather changes and to be told on arrival when calling CANCEL SAR
"We don't have any details for you"
TRY That!!
By the way, traffic was given - "No traffic" on the upgrade, which was less than 20nm, BUT FULL IFR, with cloud base at 1000AGL and cloud to 6000FT - [as a bank]
Last edited by Up-into-the-air; 24th Mar 2012 at 07:20.
Depends on what you are trying to cancel - SARTIME or SARWATCH.
If you were trying to cancel a SARWATCH, surely the penny dropped about the IFR plan change when you were not given any traffic information for your arrival. Or do you mean HF Flightwatch didn't have your IFR plan details?
If you were trying to cancel a SARWATCH, surely the penny dropped about the IFR plan change when you were not given any traffic information for your arrival. Or do you mean HF Flightwatch didn't have your IFR plan details?
I fly a STOL airoplane
I have a hand held and a fixed EPIRB
I have a first aid kit, water and rations, warm clothes, something to read and a keen sense of survival, particularly in the boondocks. On top of that I have a mobile and hand held VHF ...
If any of you flight plan promoting ninnies think I am in need of a filed plan, I respect your opinion but disagree. I also doubt I would have any problems getting a clearance apon turning up on the edge of any contol zone with no details in the system and in marginal VFR. Controllers are there to serve pilots, not vice versa!
I have a hand held and a fixed EPIRB
I have a first aid kit, water and rations, warm clothes, something to read and a keen sense of survival, particularly in the boondocks. On top of that I have a mobile and hand held VHF ...
If any of you flight plan promoting ninnies think I am in need of a filed plan, I respect your opinion but disagree. I also doubt I would have any problems getting a clearance apon turning up on the edge of any contol zone with no details in the system and in marginal VFR. Controllers are there to serve pilots, not vice versa!
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f any of you flight plan promoting ninnies think I am in need of a filed plan, I respect your opinion but disagree. I also doubt I would have any problems getting a clearance apon turning up on the edge of any contol zone with no details in the system and in marginal VFR. Controllers are there to serve pilots, not vice versa!
A filed flight plan or even just a flight note detailing your proposed route just might make it easier to coordinate the initial search sectors in the unlikely event your PLB, VHF handheld or mobile phone aren't working or worse still, you are incapable of operating any one of them.
Dead right 'XXX' ML are notorious at saying 'clearance not avail'
Sunday last,clear skies middle of the day airport you could shoot a canon along any taxiway & not hit even a bird & surrounding airspace very quiet as far as I could tell & poor little chopper asking for transit thru ML was told 'clearance not avail' end of story!
Off topic I know but yr taxes at work !!!!
Dr just saw yr ref to 'Wallies'........good job you where politically correct there
Wmk2
Sunday last,clear skies middle of the day airport you could shoot a canon along any taxiway & not hit even a bird & surrounding airspace very quiet as far as I could tell & poor little chopper asking for transit thru ML was told 'clearance not avail' end of story!
Off topic I know but yr taxes at work !!!!
Dr just saw yr ref to 'Wallies'........good job you where politically correct thereWmk2
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Up into the Air
IFR plan - Not in the system
The new system is not anywhere near perfect.
On 5 occasions, I have arrived at a destination on a VFR upgrade to IFR, lodged in the air with ATC, due weather changes and to be told on arrival when calling CANCEL SAR
"We don't have any details for you"
TRY That!!
The new system is not anywhere near perfect.
On 5 occasions, I have arrived at a destination on a VFR upgrade to IFR, lodged in the air with ATC, due weather changes and to be told on arrival when calling CANCEL SAR
"We don't have any details for you"
TRY That!!
I did a mission a while back (not long enough for major regulatory changes to have had an effect), YCEM - YMIA.
The Wx was such, that I thought it would be a good idea to put in a full plan (VFR in G) and SARTIME. This proved really helpful when the Wx forced me into CTA, and due to the fact I had a plan in the system, I was able to get the required clearances with no fuss. When the dust finally settled and I recalculated my arrival for YMIA, I realised i was going to blow my sartime by 20 odd minutes. No trouble, plenty of fuel, dialled up flightwatch, submit an amended Sartime. New sartime readback pefect, alls good.
Arrival overhead YMIA, call up to cancel Sartime to be told that no sartime was held for me.... WTF!!!
If things had gone pearshaped for me, what hope of help did i truly have? I did everything in my power to ensure the system had the best infornmation, including my exact location when i amended my sartime, to ensure I got help in the fastest time should i need it, and instead of an update, i got cancelled.
Are we safer? i think not..those guys have too many buttons to push now, mistakes are too easy.
WTF happened to my SARTIME!!!
Yes, we have successfully 'drifted' away from the tragedy and speculation....none of which does anyone any good...really..!!
AS Some 'learned colleagues have already said,...e.g......
"Dead right 'XXX' ML are notorious at saying 'clearance not avail'"
"I also doubt I would have any problems getting a clearance apon turning up on the edge of any contol zone with no details in the system and in marginal VFR. Controllers are there to serve pilots, not vice versa! "
You could prepare to be eddycated!!!
Hmmmm.... EXCEPT for the 'Marginal VFR' bit....which 'MAY' just get you a guernsey IF you declared the Marginal VFR bit...you have obviously not been to YPPH either.....
Oh Dear....
AS Some 'learned colleagues have already said,...e.g......
"Dead right 'XXX' ML are notorious at saying 'clearance not avail'"
"I also doubt I would have any problems getting a clearance apon turning up on the edge of any contol zone with no details in the system and in marginal VFR. Controllers are there to serve pilots, not vice versa! "
You could prepare to be eddycated!!!
Hmmmm.... EXCEPT for the 'Marginal VFR' bit....which 'MAY' just get you a guernsey IF you declared the Marginal VFR bit...you have obviously not been to YPPH either.....
Oh Dear....
And Hello to you too Aussie Bob,
The last 'fatal' I was involved with as an FSO, was also a STOL aircraft, equipped with ELT etc......IT was a Chopper. Bell 47 type design.
However, Murphy's Law, said that 'today is the day I am going to Challenge you!'
And when the guy crashed onto a ridge half-way down a gorge, the impact flattened his seat, under which his ELT was located and squashed the antenna so that it transmitted ONLY HORIZONTALLY....which was fortunate...LATER! The following day when another chopper was transitting said gorge at low level....
As I remember, one died, and one with a spinal injury CRAWLED ALL NIGHT thru the Kimberley landscape to his Camp to get help!!
Just think about your claim...IF F.S. Had have had his Flight Plan.....
There is a whole lot more to this story, but, in my opinion, this is all you need to know for now...
WE have ALL flown NO SAR at times...except for the 'SAR with MUM', that is....
You may have indeed, been 'fortunate'...and avoided Fate.
In my "Old Age", I figure I got here do doing lotsa 'things' right, as have many others on these forums.
I admire your courage. (?)
The last 'fatal' I was involved with as an FSO, was also a STOL aircraft, equipped with ELT etc......IT was a Chopper. Bell 47 type design.
However, Murphy's Law, said that 'today is the day I am going to Challenge you!'
And when the guy crashed onto a ridge half-way down a gorge, the impact flattened his seat, under which his ELT was located and squashed the antenna so that it transmitted ONLY HORIZONTALLY....which was fortunate...LATER! The following day when another chopper was transitting said gorge at low level....
As I remember, one died, and one with a spinal injury CRAWLED ALL NIGHT thru the Kimberley landscape to his Camp to get help!!
Just think about your claim...IF F.S. Had have had his Flight Plan.....
There is a whole lot more to this story, but, in my opinion, this is all you need to know for now...
WE have ALL flown NO SAR at times...except for the 'SAR with MUM', that is....
You may have indeed, been 'fortunate'...and avoided Fate.
In my "Old Age", I figure I got here do doing lotsa 'things' right, as have many others on these forums.
I admire your courage. (?)
Aimpoint, Upintheair , et al, Hi.
I think you may find that under 'Dick's Improved System', your HF Flightwatch service does not actually hold ANY flight plan details....
"FlightWatch', whether you contact them via HF or VHF is irrelevant - is simply a communications 'relay' system OR an information system... they can access their computor (NAIPS) and pass you weathers / NOTAMS etc on request.
You tell Flightwatch something, and they simply 'pass it on' to whomever....
Your Position Report goes to ATC.
Your SARTIME Cancellation call is simply relayed to CENSAR.
'Flightwatch' are NOT the ones holding it.
Its not like the 'Good Ole Days'....As far as I am aware....I'm not 'in it' now, so I could be wrong...but - I don't think so...
(NO reflection on the guys & gals at Flightwatch...they can only do as instructed... and the 'system' such as it is, allows...)
Cheers - and you be careful out there.....
I think you may find that under 'Dick's Improved System', your HF Flightwatch service does not actually hold ANY flight plan details....
"FlightWatch', whether you contact them via HF or VHF is irrelevant - is simply a communications 'relay' system OR an information system... they can access their computor (NAIPS) and pass you weathers / NOTAMS etc on request.
You tell Flightwatch something, and they simply 'pass it on' to whomever....
Your Position Report goes to ATC.
Your SARTIME Cancellation call is simply relayed to CENSAR.
'Flightwatch' are NOT the ones holding it.
Its not like the 'Good Ole Days'....As far as I am aware....I'm not 'in it' now, so I could be wrong...but - I don't think so...
(NO reflection on the guys & gals at Flightwatch...they can only do as instructed... and the 'system' such as it is, allows...)
Cheers - and you be careful out there.....
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I think current technology will and, for me, already is providing a sarwatch, via a Spot GPS tracker/transmitter.
before departure, start the tracker, it will send a position report every 5 mins back to the people holding my sartime, they can track my flight live. (via google maps) if my track suddently stops in the middle of nowhere, they will notice within 5 mins, if i havnt already triggered the SOS epirb alarm. simple easy to use.
why cant such technology be adapted for regular aircraft use. and monitored from a central location? the infrastructure is in place and operational, it works for all other outdoor types of activities. why not?
before departure, start the tracker, it will send a position report every 5 mins back to the people holding my sartime, they can track my flight live. (via google maps) if my track suddently stops in the middle of nowhere, they will notice within 5 mins, if i havnt already triggered the SOS epirb alarm. simple easy to use.
why cant such technology be adapted for regular aircraft use. and monitored from a central location? the infrastructure is in place and operational, it works for all other outdoor types of activities. why not?
I've found many times that I will either amend my SARTIME or Flight Plan and then when calling for a clearance or to cancel the SARTIME find that they don't have any record of my changes, just my original details.
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Yoo think GA would support full reporting again ex FSO? RAA as well? The world has changed, you haven't. Your Dick bashing is getting tiresome.
Last edited by Super Cecil; 24th Mar 2012 at 10:43. Reason: seize brain-compatible scaffolding
Hi Cecil,
Well, we are paying about as much now as we did then....so why not?
Airservices CAN afford to give GA a whole lot more...but...the fees raised by them are returned to the Govt....sorta like a tax really.
I pay. You pay. We don't get the equivalent service.
Or if you're a croppie, I can see that you don't require any more than your guys on the ground for your SAR / services, but there is a whole GA Industry out there paying through their fuel, for a no-service.
And, yes, I give Dick the credit for it - and that is true - it was his decision / policy.
I have met the man, and now I truly thank him for the 'redundo' pack - what is wrong with that??
Cheers
Well, we are paying about as much now as we did then....so why not?
Airservices CAN afford to give GA a whole lot more...but...the fees raised by them are returned to the Govt....sorta like a tax really.
I pay. You pay. We don't get the equivalent service.
Or if you're a croppie, I can see that you don't require any more than your guys on the ground for your SAR / services, but there is a whole GA Industry out there paying through their fuel, for a no-service.
And, yes, I give Dick the credit for it - and that is true - it was his decision / policy.
I have met the man, and now I truly thank him for the 'redundo' pack - what is wrong with that??
Cheers
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Firstly what a tragedy this is, very sad to see. Like all accidents lets learn from it, after all our rules and regs are written in the blood of those before us.
As for full reporting, VFR clearances etc look at the whole perspective. ATC are extremely short staffed. Add to this there are more flights in the air than ever before. If your clearance is denied it won't because they can't be bothered. Just because it looks clear where you are doesn't mean we're not stuck in a que on the ground or flying around in the stack holding. The ATC guys here are good and if you're in dire straits with WX they WILL help.
At the end of the day they need more funds, more controllers and more frequencies like Flightwatch. As there are more planes in the air I can tell you there often just isn't the time to have someone submitting details via radio, especially at busy airports where you're fighting to get a word in anyway. That's why they want the phone/fax/net to be used as much as possible.
At the end of the day be practical. Going for a local flight? Probably best to at least tell someone but filing a plan is rediculous. Going for a long flight? File a plan with a SARTIME and cancel it via phone when you get there if possible. You can submit a plan easily via phone too or if on NAIPS you'll get a submission note so you know it's in the system.
The level of notification depends on where you're going. And yes near CTA it will make life a lot easier if you have a plan in and suddenly need to use controlled airspace as they will have some idea where you're going.
As for full reporting, VFR clearances etc look at the whole perspective. ATC are extremely short staffed. Add to this there are more flights in the air than ever before. If your clearance is denied it won't because they can't be bothered. Just because it looks clear where you are doesn't mean we're not stuck in a que on the ground or flying around in the stack holding. The ATC guys here are good and if you're in dire straits with WX they WILL help.
At the end of the day they need more funds, more controllers and more frequencies like Flightwatch. As there are more planes in the air I can tell you there often just isn't the time to have someone submitting details via radio, especially at busy airports where you're fighting to get a word in anyway. That's why they want the phone/fax/net to be used as much as possible.
At the end of the day be practical. Going for a local flight? Probably best to at least tell someone but filing a plan is rediculous. Going for a long flight? File a plan with a SARTIME and cancel it via phone when you get there if possible. You can submit a plan easily via phone too or if on NAIPS you'll get a submission note so you know it's in the system.
The level of notification depends on where you're going. And yes near CTA it will make life a lot easier if you have a plan in and suddenly need to use controlled airspace as they will have some idea where you're going.
