Handswinging?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: turn L @ Taupo, just past the Niagra Falls...
Posts: 596
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Handswinging?
Seems the thread may have been deleted, just as I was really starting to enjoy it!!! 
...cracked me up -sorry morno, nothing personal, just strikes me that maybe FDW has been taking the piss!!! Some pretty amazing attitudes evident in the (apparently recently deceased) thread, particularly from some that apparently think pretty highly of themselves ;-)
To the topic: as I have stated countless times before, always treat every prop as live, all the time, every time, unless you have proven it dead. Lots of emphasis, I know -but your life may depend on it. The only way I know of to prove an operational engine/prop dead is to conduct a proper mag function/dead-cut check yourself prior to shutdown. Only then can you be sure... to a degree. Hotspots within the engine may obviate a proven dead mag, allowing the engine to fire, however briefly. It doesn't take much to kill you.
To handswinging itself: Legalities... I am unaware of any legal instruments that specifically prevent a pilot from employing the Armstrong Start method should the need arise! It's always better that prior training be undertaken prior to needing to employ an Armstrong... find a good instructor, someone that knows. The advisability? Some suggest simply finding an engineer to recharge the battery... what if it ain't the battery? Maybe the keys have been lost, maybe the nearest engineer is several hundred miles away from your out-of-contact location, or any number of other potentials that lead to contemplation of an Armstrong start. Whatever, unless the situation is desperate it is always a minimum 2-pilot operation. Think it through thoroughly, set it up carefully, execute the process deliberately. A successful outcome s likely.
caveat: on injected engines and those in the 'big-bore' range 520, 540+ etc., it's always easier if the engine is cold!!!
If your problem is a flat battery due cold-soaking, try this: set-up & prime as for a normal start, and crank (it just may start!). If it doesn't, crank the guts out of the battery IAW your AFM starter limitations. Crank as much out of the battery as you can. No start. Shut down completely including the Master. Walk away from the aircraft. Go make a cup of coffee. Give it 15-30 minutes. Go back, set-up and prime again. Have another go -you may be very happy with the results! The idea behind this is, dragging a lot of current out of the (cold soaked) battery generates a lot of heat. Let that heat warm your battery for a period of time, then have another go. The start may be sluggish, but if it's effective, who cares? ;-)
Originally Posted by morno
With an attitude like that...
To the topic: as I have stated countless times before, always treat every prop as live, all the time, every time, unless you have proven it dead. Lots of emphasis, I know -but your life may depend on it. The only way I know of to prove an operational engine/prop dead is to conduct a proper mag function/dead-cut check yourself prior to shutdown. Only then can you be sure... to a degree. Hotspots within the engine may obviate a proven dead mag, allowing the engine to fire, however briefly. It doesn't take much to kill you.
To handswinging itself: Legalities... I am unaware of any legal instruments that specifically prevent a pilot from employing the Armstrong Start method should the need arise! It's always better that prior training be undertaken prior to needing to employ an Armstrong... find a good instructor, someone that knows. The advisability? Some suggest simply finding an engineer to recharge the battery... what if it ain't the battery? Maybe the keys have been lost, maybe the nearest engineer is several hundred miles away from your out-of-contact location, or any number of other potentials that lead to contemplation of an Armstrong start. Whatever, unless the situation is desperate it is always a minimum 2-pilot operation. Think it through thoroughly, set it up carefully, execute the process deliberately. A successful outcome s likely.
caveat: on injected engines and those in the 'big-bore' range 520, 540+ etc., it's always easier if the engine is cold!!!
If your problem is a flat battery due cold-soaking, try this: set-up & prime as for a normal start, and crank (it just may start!). If it doesn't, crank the guts out of the battery IAW your AFM starter limitations. Crank as much out of the battery as you can. No start. Shut down completely including the Master. Walk away from the aircraft. Go make a cup of coffee. Give it 15-30 minutes. Go back, set-up and prime again. Have another go -you may be very happy with the results! The idea behind this is, dragging a lot of current out of the (cold soaked) battery generates a lot of heat. Let that heat warm your battery for a period of time, then have another go. The start may be sluggish, but if it's effective, who cares? ;-)
No offence taken RS. Whether he was taking the piss or not, swearing at other ppruners (plus the private message I got afterwards abusing me) is not on.
Anyway, back to the topic. It was educational..... mostly.
morno
Anyway, back to the topic. It was educational..... mostly.
morno
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: turn L @ Taupo, just past the Niagra Falls...
Posts: 596
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
hmmmm ok. There must have been more to the thread than I saw then. I too have received a PM, to which a reply is unlikely.
Yeah, the thread has promise, as long as OWT's are checked at the door
Yeah, the thread has promise, as long as OWT's are checked at the door
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: Australia
Age: 51
Posts: 931
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Not sure about total killing of OWT's, they do serve several useful purposes:-
1. A good giggle when you're feeling down
2. A start point for an angry conversation
or more productively
3. A start point upon which a pilot with his licence to learn can go and try to learn enough to invalidate the old wives tales.
The problem with OWT's, is they exist, and are deeply imbedded in our community. I doubt they will ever be erased.
A recently dead thread on mixtures proves that old dogs can learn new tricks. One hell of an informative thread that was. (thanx Jaba &co) Threads like that should be encouraged, and maybe our mods could do a lil more than delete threads that go haywire, esp if the topic is interesting.
1. A good giggle when you're feeling down
2. A start point for an angry conversation
or more productively
3. A start point upon which a pilot with his licence to learn can go and try to learn enough to invalidate the old wives tales.
The problem with OWT's, is they exist, and are deeply imbedded in our community. I doubt they will ever be erased.
A recently dead thread on mixtures proves that old dogs can learn new tricks. One hell of an informative thread that was. (thanx Jaba &co) Threads like that should be encouraged, and maybe our mods could do a lil more than delete threads that go haywire, esp if the topic is interesting.
Well that thread didn't last long...
I guess it’s relevant to this topic; the art of "testing compression" during a walk around. During my initial multi rating, they had us turning the props on a Baron 55.... Never did like the idea!
I guess it’s relevant to this topic; the art of "testing compression" during a walk around. During my initial multi rating, they had us turning the props on a Baron 55.... Never did like the idea!
Last edited by 717tech; 28th Feb 2012 at 12:21. Reason: typo
To the subject at hand.Unless it's absolutely needed to survive (eg stranded outback & yr gunna die if ya can't get the beast started & fly out) I see no need for hand starting any engine that was designed to be mechanically started,it's just too dangerous & not worth the risk. Flying is dangerous enuf lets not start out an aviation adventure with a high risk of dieing even before we take off!
I was in Broome once many yrs ago & watched a guy trying to start a C210 on his own(no one else in the cockpit), it was a hot day & he had only just flown in & flattened the batt trying to restart the beast.No tnxs I thought!
Interesting story as a side note to this subject. Also in Broome in the early 80's (great place back then pre commercialization, stuffed now!) there was a Catholic Bishop by the name of Jobst who flew around the Kimberlies etc spreading the word to his parishioners in light A/C.One day he was trying to hand start his C182 at Broome (C210 came next, that's the one I used to fly) with a couple of nuns on board & after a little while the motor started & the A/C promptly moved off quite fast across the airfield & ran into a ditch where it flipped over. Result.... busted plane & busted nuns no doubt, God was I think trying to make a point on that day
That's the story I heard anyway amongst others stories, but there for another day
Wmk2
I was in Broome once many yrs ago & watched a guy trying to start a C210 on his own(no one else in the cockpit), it was a hot day & he had only just flown in & flattened the batt trying to restart the beast.No tnxs I thought!
Interesting story as a side note to this subject. Also in Broome in the early 80's (great place back then pre commercialization, stuffed now!) there was a Catholic Bishop by the name of Jobst who flew around the Kimberlies etc spreading the word to his parishioners in light A/C.One day he was trying to hand start his C182 at Broome (C210 came next, that's the one I used to fly) with a couple of nuns on board & after a little while the motor started & the A/C promptly moved off quite fast across the airfield & ran into a ditch where it flipped over. Result.... busted plane & busted nuns no doubt, God was I think trying to make a point on that day
That's the story I heard anyway amongst others stories, but there for another dayWmk2
Last edited by Wally Mk2; 28th Feb 2012 at 20:29. Reason: poor Sunday School education:-)
Join Date: Aug 2010
Location: Australia
Age: 65
Posts: 144
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Without moving too far off the original thread's OP, why has no-one mentioned connecting an external power supply to the a/c? (typically a battery cart or motor vehicle)
Having spent many years flying aeroplanes requiring handstarting I would offer the following suggestions:
Do not attempt handstarting until you have received instruction from a competent person
Complete several starts under the trainers supervision
Ensure you have a competent pilot in a control seat when you handstart
The only reg I recall relates to pax, you are not permitted to have pax onboard unless there is a duly licenced pilot at the controls while the hand starting is being completed.
Here's a link to a CASA AC with some guidance to engineers re ground running engines. It makes a reference to hand starting.
http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dl...=ac091-240.pdf
If you need someone to provide you with instruction on handstarting PM me.
Do not attempt handstarting until you have received instruction from a competent person
Complete several starts under the trainers supervision
Ensure you have a competent pilot in a control seat when you handstart
The only reg I recall relates to pax, you are not permitted to have pax onboard unless there is a duly licenced pilot at the controls while the hand starting is being completed.
Here's a link to a CASA AC with some guidance to engineers re ground running engines. It makes a reference to hand starting.
http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dl...=ac091-240.pdf
If you need someone to provide you with instruction on handstarting PM me.
'os' that's a valid question but I think that comes down to be included in the common sense part of aviation(which is sadly lacking a lot), you exhaust all possible starting ways (such as you mentioned) prior to hand swinging a prop, if at all.
Wmk2
Wmk2
Hi Mr Saigon,
Re "Maybe the keys have been lost, maybe the nearest engineer is several hundred miles away from your out-of-contact location, or any number of other potentials that...."
May I ask, if the keys have been lost, the magneto select switch (L, R, Both) would not be able to be selected to the 'on' position.....so no amount of hand swinging is gunna do you any good, I would suggest.
Just a thought.
Re "Maybe the keys have been lost, maybe the nearest engineer is several hundred miles away from your out-of-contact location, or any number of other potentials that...."
May I ask, if the keys have been lost, the magneto select switch (L, R, Both) would not be able to be selected to the 'on' position.....so no amount of hand swinging is gunna do you any good, I would suggest.
Just a thought.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: turn L @ Taupo, just past the Niagra Falls...
Posts: 596
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Quite true Griffo. Losing the key does make manipulation of the key-barrel bothersome...
However, that's exactly what happened to me one day when the boss departed NZMF with the keys to my airframe in his pocket and a 206-full of tourists that had to be back in NZQN to make ongoing connections! The boss never did adequately explain how/why the keys wound-up in his pocket... oh well.
Being a very fresh CPL at that time, all manner of aviation trivia were still abundant in mind, leaving a relatively simple issue to be resolved by twisting (if memory serves) only 3 wires from the back of the key barrel together to allow 2 hot mags...
Now I'm wondering why I didn't try that other wire and see if it would have engaged the starter for me too... would have saved a LOT of Armstrong swinging to get that stubborn bitch running!
However, that's exactly what happened to me one day when the boss departed NZMF with the keys to my airframe in his pocket and a 206-full of tourists that had to be back in NZQN to make ongoing connections! The boss never did adequately explain how/why the keys wound-up in his pocket... oh well.
Being a very fresh CPL at that time, all manner of aviation trivia were still abundant in mind, leaving a relatively simple issue to be resolved by twisting (if memory serves) only 3 wires from the back of the key barrel together to allow 2 hot mags...
Now I'm wondering why I didn't try that other wire and see if it would have engaged the starter for me too... would have saved a LOT of Armstrong swinging to get that stubborn bitch running!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: turn L @ Taupo, just past the Niagra Falls...
Posts: 596
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by osmosis
...why has no-one mentioned connecting an external power supply to the a/c?
Originally Posted by Wally MkII
I see no need for hand starting any engine that was designed to be mechanically started,it's just too dangerous & not worth the risk...
In my opinion, it is nonsensical to write-off handswinging as you have done. GA is fraught with possibilities for pilots to find themselves in a position where it may be the only practical, realistic opportunity to achieve their mission without major inconvenience, physical damage to an airframe (beach landing, dead battery, rising tide anyone?) or major expense getting a qualified repairer, spares and tools to the aircraft.
I'm not about to write a treatise here explaining how I do it or how I think it should be done. I am going to repeat what I said earlier: get training!!! Personally I'd tend to chose someone that does a fair bit of it -a Tiger Moth operator, for example. They're a fairly benign aircraft to swing, there's a few of them about, the people operating them are most likely well-practised and have robust, effective systems in-place and the principles you'll learn are in broad strokes applicable to whatever you may have to Armstrong in future, with type-specific variations, of course.
It's not a process conducted solely by Captain Barry Strongjaw types solely to impress their femme fatales... it's something you need to learn, because the situation may arise at some point that you need to swing an engine. It's a fairly simple, safe process if conducted properly and underpinned by knowledge gained from proper training. Basic Airmanship, really.
Hi Mr Saigon,
At the risk of repeating the 'other' thread here....it ain't all 'cheese n' bikkies' to handswing.....
The older taildraggers have the prop positioned in a relatively 'high' position, due to the tailwheel, and so are relatively easy, and can be done fairly safely....some, like the Tiger, even have the mag switches on the outside to enhance safety.
The Auster is not very 'high' and more 'caution' is required..IMHO.
Being in a 'high' position, enables the prop to be swung 'down' whilst standing BEHIND, with one hand on the strut for example, to ensure one's balance during this delicate manoeuvre, and the switches are ...just...there!
It doesn't require any force on the downswing - just the 'click' of the impulse mag will do the trick, then, when the donk fires, the 'other' mag switch is turned on...
More modern tri-cycle u/c acft have the prop in a relatively 'low' position, where at the point of swinging the blade down, has the swinger bending forward, and down - off balance even - towards the disc of the prop as it rotates....
On occasion, with 'someone-who-knows' - NOT just 'someone' - in the cockpit to work the switches & throttle, it is possible to rotate the prop so that the swing is horizontal - but the swinger is generally still bending down and on a point of balance....
NOT really 'safe'....IMHO.
'Basic Airmanship'..?? USED to be in the days of the taildraggers - days of yore...
Not so now, I fear.
'Basic Airmanship'?
EVEN - 'Airmanship'..?? NOW that's a whole new ball-game for some of the 'younger gen.' so it would seem(?) ...but that's a whole new thread.....
Hope I haven't bored anybody.....
Cheers
At the risk of repeating the 'other' thread here....it ain't all 'cheese n' bikkies' to handswing.....
The older taildraggers have the prop positioned in a relatively 'high' position, due to the tailwheel, and so are relatively easy, and can be done fairly safely....some, like the Tiger, even have the mag switches on the outside to enhance safety.
The Auster is not very 'high' and more 'caution' is required..IMHO.
Being in a 'high' position, enables the prop to be swung 'down' whilst standing BEHIND, with one hand on the strut for example, to ensure one's balance during this delicate manoeuvre, and the switches are ...just...there!
It doesn't require any force on the downswing - just the 'click' of the impulse mag will do the trick, then, when the donk fires, the 'other' mag switch is turned on...
More modern tri-cycle u/c acft have the prop in a relatively 'low' position, where at the point of swinging the blade down, has the swinger bending forward, and down - off balance even - towards the disc of the prop as it rotates....
On occasion, with 'someone-who-knows' - NOT just 'someone' - in the cockpit to work the switches & throttle, it is possible to rotate the prop so that the swing is horizontal - but the swinger is generally still bending down and on a point of balance....
NOT really 'safe'....IMHO.
'Basic Airmanship'..?? USED to be in the days of the taildraggers - days of yore...
Not so now, I fear.
'Basic Airmanship'?
EVEN - 'Airmanship'..?? NOW that's a whole new ball-game for some of the 'younger gen.' so it would seem(?) ...but that's a whole new thread.....
Hope I haven't bored anybody.....
Cheers
Last edited by Ex FSO GRIFFO; 29th Feb 2012 at 03:41.
Must say I'm surprised at the amount of negativity toward what I consider a rather useful addition to the quiver of skills that make a pilot. It isn't difficult to do, but there are a number of traps for young players so I'd echo the advice above, get someone who genuinely knows how to do it to show you how - and I don't mean your average big city instructor here.
A few thoughts - I know Tigers are generally started from behind, but on more modern types with metal or composite props; that trailing edge is sharp and a backwards kick could spoil your day quite comprehensively. From in front you can push onto the face of the prop without curling your fingers over the trailing edge.
- know which magneto to use for starting (RTFM!)
- Use chocks.
A few thoughts - I know Tigers are generally started from behind, but on more modern types with metal or composite props; that trailing edge is sharp and a backwards kick could spoil your day quite comprehensively. From in front you can push onto the face of the prop without curling your fingers over the trailing edge.
- know which magneto to use for starting (RTFM!)
- Use chocks.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: turn L @ Taupo, just past the Niagra Falls...
Posts: 596
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
We're going to have to agree to differ then, it seems Griffo. It wasn't that long ago I had to Armstrong the L engine of a high-wing twin, wearing 540's... that was a 3-man job. Another pilot at the switches, me on the prop and the 3rd member of the team hanging onto my belt assisting with providing the requisite motive force (successfully!) but primarily to keep my bits out of the propeller arc -also successfully! The necessity was there, the methodology, training and manpower were available, a successful safe outcome was achieved. It is still not something I contemplate without specific need, careful preparation or deliberate fore-thought. In that particular case, 2 type-rated pilots were available and an engineer who had unsuccessfully assisted in previous start efforts, prior to the Armstrong. It was the engineer on my belt.
BTW: Mr. Saigon (my Dad) passed away some years ago now. He had conducted many thousands more Armstrong starts than I anticipate I ever will... and died peacefully of terminal old age. You can call me Radio -or just RS, as you prefer
BTW: Mr. Saigon (my Dad) passed away some years ago now. He had conducted many thousands more Armstrong starts than I anticipate I ever will... and died peacefully of terminal old age. You can call me Radio -or just RS, as you prefer
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2008
Location: turn L @ Taupo, just past the Niagra Falls...
Posts: 596
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Originally Posted by spinex
Must say I'm surprised at the amount of negativity toward what I consider a rather useful addition to the quiver of skills that make a pilot...
You raise good points, which should all be raised and addressed in any comprehensive training for swinging. The mag you're looking for to assist your start is the IMPULSE mag on most engines, usually the Left Mag. Other engines may have Shower of Sparks Mags, again, usually the Left. If you do have a Shower of Sparks Mag, you will need someone sitting at the controls holding the key or switch to the START position whilst you are swinging the prop. Otherwise, no sparks. Know your airframe. Again, basic Airmanship.
Join Date: Feb 2009
Location: dans un cercle dont le centre est eveywhere et circumfernce n'est nulle part
Posts: 2,606
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Auster, like the Tiger was swung from behind port side, but with the side window open to allow you to get to the switches quickly. I've seen PA28's swung from behind, starboard side of course, but I didn't like the feel of it and have only done Yank engines from the front, but acutely aware of an escape plan etc. The Chipmunk,.. well I, and most all I know swung it from the front in an upwards motion with the right hand. Seemed sensible if the action had you walking away from the danger.
Saw a mate successfully swing a Chieftan once. Port engine. But really, I would consider alternatives before I tried it on something like that.
Given how many times I've been in the boonies with a dead battery, (PA-22 had switches under the pilot's seat which made for common flat battery's), the proceedure should be taught, or at least demonstrated.
Saw a mate successfully swing a Chieftan once. Port engine. But really, I would consider alternatives before I tried it on something like that.
Given how many times I've been in the boonies with a dead battery, (PA-22 had switches under the pilot's seat which made for common flat battery's), the proceedure should be taught, or at least demonstrated.
From in front you can push onto the face of the prop without curling your fingers over the trailing edge.
The face of the blade is the side you are looking at from the cockpit, ie. Lower surface of the airfoil (in a single engine tractor prop for those who want to suggest pusher or other types
).